Revelation 20 the 1000 years

[~TW~]

So Spud you are back to Rev 19: 11 agree or disagree .
~TW~

[Spud]

rewind to Rev 19:11

And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

The rider is Christ, and he has a double edged sword coming from his mouth, with which he smites the nations. This is symbolic, agreed?

[2Corrie]

Symbolic of what, that is important.

[DaveM]

Thanks Spud but if you cant see the flaws in that then !

~TW~

I thought it was a good summary of their view, easy to read.

Strange, considering that we are supposed to be enjoying the millennium reign of Christ right now, that I see no sign of people beating their swords into ploughshares!

Recently in this country a lion managed to wander outside the boundaries of a game reserve and into adjacent farm land.  At the last count it had killed fourteen sheep.  Seems that someone forgot to tell this big kitty that he was supposed to lie down with the calf (and the lamb) and eat straw like the ox! (Isaiah 9).

In chapter 65 Isaiah repeats similar sentiments and expands further on them.  He tells us of the coming time when:

I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress. No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain or bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, and their descendants with them. Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the LORD. (Isaiah 65:19-25). 

If what we are seeing in the Middle East today is the fulfilment of this millennial prophecy then all I can say is, ‘stop the world, I want to get off’.

I certainly do not see many ‘young men’ dying at a hundred, or old men with lifespans equal to the days of a tree (1000 years?).  As for no more hurting or destroying (killing) in all my holy mountain – all we are seeing is escalating carnage. 

Today’s world is so far removed from the picture the Scriptures paint of the golden age of the Millennium that I find it amazing that anyone could equate the two.

[ad_orientem]

"The Lord said to my Lord: Sit thou at my right hand: Until I make thy enemies thy footstool" and "I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years".

If the "thousand years" is not a figure of the time between the resurrection and our Lord's return on the last day, then neither does our Lord sit at the righthand of the Father nor do the saints live and reign with him which means that our Lord descended into Hades in vain and St. Stephen Protomartyr was hallucinating.

[DaveM]

"The Lord said to my Lord: Sit thou at my right hand: Until I make thy enemies thy footstool" and "I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years".

If the "thousand years" is not a figure of the time between the resurrection and our Lord's return on the last day, then neither does our Lord sit at the righthand of the Father nor do the saints live and reign with him which means that our Lord descended into Hades in vain and St. Stephen Protomartyr was hallucinating.

Well considering that those words of David from Psalm 110 were written almost exactly 1000 years before the crucifixion why not argue that Jesus was sitting at the right hand of the Father during that time and that the Millennium must thus correspond to the 1000 year period from David to Messiah.

Which is really saying that I find no contradiction between the Scriptures you quoted and the view of a post second coming Millenial reign ushered in by Christ on His return.

[ad_orientem]

"The Lord said to my Lord: Sit thou at my right hand: Until I make thy enemies thy footstool" and "I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years".

If the "thousand years" is not a figure of the time between the resurrection and our Lord's return on the last day, then neither does our Lord sit at the righthand of the Father nor do the saints live and reign with him which means that our Lord descended into Hades in vain and St. Stephen Protomartyr was hallucinating.

Well considering that those words of David from Psalm 110 were written almost exactly 1000 years before the crucifixion why not argue that Jesus was sitting at the right hand of the Father during that time and that the Millennium must thus correspond to the 1000 year period from David to Messiah.

Which is really saying that I find no contradiction between the Scriptures you quoted and the view of a post second coming Millenial reign ushered in by Christ on His return.

Except that the Incarnation happenned, that is the Word became flesh, at a certain point in time.

[2Corrie]

Thanks Spud but if you cant see the flaws in that then !

~TW~

I thought it was a good summary of their view, easy to read.

Strange, considering that we are supposed to be enjoying the millennium reign of Christ right now, that I see no sign of people beating their swords into ploughshares!

Recently in this country a lion managed to wander outside the boundaries of a game reserve and into adjacent farm land.  At the last count it had killed fourteen sheep.  Seems that someone forgot to tell this big kitty that he was supposed to lie down with the calf (and the lamb) and eat straw like the ox! (Isaiah 9).

In chapter 65 Isaiah repeats similar sentiments and expands further on them.  He tells us of the coming time when:

I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress. No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain or bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, and their descendants with them. Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the LORD. (Isaiah 65:19-25). 

If what we are seeing in the Middle East today is the fulfilment of this millennial prophecy then all I can say is, ‘stop the world, I want to get off’.

I certainly do not see many ‘young men’ dying at a hundred, or old men with lifespans equal to the days of a tree (1000 years?).  As for no more hurting or destroying (killing) in all my holy mountain – all we are seeing is escalating carnage. 

Today’s world is so far removed from the picture the Scriptures paint of the golden age of the Millennium that I find it amazing that anyone could equate the two.

Bravo

[Spud]

Symbolic of what, that is important.

The sword represents the Gospel, which kills them (19:21). Getting eaten by the birds symbolizes being cursed, in other words eternally damned.

[DaveM]

"The Lord said to my Lord: Sit thou at my right hand: Until I make thy enemies thy footstool" and "I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years".

If the "thousand years" is not a figure of the time between the resurrection and our Lord's return on the last day, then neither does our Lord sit at the righthand of the Father nor do the saints live and reign with him which means that our Lord descended into Hades in vain and St. Stephen Protomartyr was hallucinating.

Well considering that those words of David from Psalm 110 were written almost exactly 1000 years before the crucifixion why not argue that Jesus was sitting at the right hand of the Father during that time and that the Millennium must thus correspond to the 1000 year period from David to Messiah.

Which is really saying that I find no contradiction between the Scriptures you quoted and the view of a post second coming Millenial reign ushered in by Christ on His return.

Except that the Incarnation happenned, that is the Word became flesh, at a certain point in time.

The final six chapters of Isaiah are magnificent ones to read, and in their prophetic context need to be carefully noted.  Starting at 61:1-3 is the prophecy of the coming of Messiah who will not only usher in the ‘favourable year of the Lord’ but also the ‘day of vengeance of our God’ and as the one who will comfort those who mourn.  A consequence of Messiah’s advent seen from there through to Chapter 62 is the true restoration of God’s ancient people, Israel, and recognition by the Gentiles that they are now those truly blessed by the Lord.  But then we are also given a picture in Chapter 63 of ‘the day of vengeance of our God which must take place before the true Millennial Kingdom of Chapter 65 can be ushered in.

Now Jesus read from Isaiah 61:1-2a in the synagogue at Nazareth at the start on His ministry, (Luke 4:16-21).  And it is highly significant that He stopped half way through Isaiah 61:2 at the ‘favourable year of our Lord’ omitting the sections on the ‘day of vengeance of our God’ and ‘to comfort those who mourn’.  Also significant that He ‘closed the book’ and announced that ‘today this prophecy has been fulfilled in your hearing.  The implication being that the time of the ‘day of vengeance’ and ‘comforting those who mourn’ had not yet arrived. With hindsight we know that these, and events beyond this in Isaiah would await their fulfilment until the Second Coming.  Sandwiched between these two events would be the Church age – what I think some German theologians termed ‘Der Zwischen Zeit’.

But the concept of two stages to Messiah’s ministry was a truth that was not revealed to the OT prophets.  They all write as though the coming of Messiah would be a single event.  Paul refers to the time we are now living in as the mystery of the Church.   Peter tells us that, ‘concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating, ‘ trying but failing to truly understand what they were receiving from the Lord.  Even John the Baptist asked the Pharisees who it was who had warned them of the wrath to come, i.e. the imminent Day of Vengeance.

But the key issue here is that the Isaiah prophecy is quite clear that the Millennial Age does not precede the Day of Vengeance of our God (Chapter 63) but is subsequent to it (Chapters 65-66).  It follows both the Incarnation and the Day of Vengeance.  In my understanding this is a serious, if not fatal, objection, to the view that the Millennium corresponds to the period between the first and second Advents.  We are still in the ‘Zwischen Zeit’ waiting for the return of the Lord in judgement for this to happen.   

[ad_orientem]

The Church is Israel and our Lord already rules his kingdom hence, "The Lord said to my Lord: Sit thou at my right hand: Until I make thy enemies thy footstool. The Lord will send forth the sceptre of thy power out of Sion: rule thou in the midst of thy enemies", which is why the holy council at Constantinople condemned chiliasm.

[2Corrie]

Symbolic of what, that is important.

The sword represents the Gospel, which kills them (19:21). Getting eaten by the birds symbolizes being cursed, in other words eternally damned.

The sword is the word of God, and His enemies will be eternally damned. Do you agree that  the second coming of the Lord and the defeat of His  enemies is in view here?

[DaveM]

The Church is Israel.

Go and read the Scriptures carefully.  The Abrahamic Covenant is a good place to start.  God is always true to His promises and He will fulfil all His promises to Abraham.  In fact you do not really need to go beyond this to realise that the Church is not Israel, irrespective of the views of the Council of Constantinople.

[ad_orientem]

It is because the scriptures are such an integral part of the life of the Church, it is because I have read the scriptures, that both the Church and I see that the Church clearly is Israel.

[BashfulAnthony]

It is because the scriptures are such an integral part of the life of the Church, it is because I have read the scriptures, that both the Church and I see that the Church clearly is Israel.

I'm with Marcion here: "the church is Israel’s replacement and is now to receive all that had been promised to Israel."

[DaveM]

It is because the scriptures are such an integral part of the life of the Church, it is because I have read the scriptures, that both the Church and I see that the Church clearly is Israel.

I' 'with Marcion here: "the church is Israel’s replacement and wis now to receive all that had been promised to Israel."

Hi BA,

Fair enough if you hold that view.  But how about some solid Scriptural backing in support.  Not forgetting to also provide some arguments based on Scripture as to why you think that my understanding of Isaiah 61 to 66 is in error.

[BashfulAnthony]

It is because the scriptures are such an integral part of the life of the Church, it is because I have read the scriptures, that both the Church and I see that the Church clearly is Israel.

I'm with Marcion here: "the church is Israel’s replacement and wis now to receive all that had been promised to Israel."

Hi BA,



Fair enough if you hold that view.  But how about some solid Scriptural backing in support.  Not forgetting to also provide some arguments based on Scripture as to why you think that my understanding of Isaiah 61 to 66 is in error.

Hi,

Can I refer you to some of the sites available on Marcion and his beliefs, which deal with this in depth.

No time for in-depth discussion now  (still haven't had my breakfast!!);  but talk of vengeance is, for me, total anathema: 
 
"“But as for you who forsake the Lord
    and forget my holy mountain,
who spread a table for Fortune
    and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny,
12 I will destine you for the sword,
    and all of you will fall in the slaughter;
for I called but you did not answer,
    I spoke but you did not listen.
You did evil in my sight
    and chose what displeases me.”

That is completely at odds with the God Jesus teaches us about, which is essentially a God of love and forgiveness.

[DaveM]

Hi,

Can I refer you to some of the sites available on Marcion and his beliefs, which deal with this in depth.

I don't think we should derail this thread with another discussion on Marcion.  Perhaps a topic for another day.

Plus the fact that I do not believe a meaningful discussion on eschatology and the place of Israel in God's plans can be conducted on the basis of the New Testament only.

[2Corrie]

It is because the scriptures are such an integral part of the life of the Church, it is because I have read the scriptures, that both the Church and I see that the Church clearly is Israel.

Romans 11?

[ad_orientem]

It is because the scriptures are such an integral part of the life of the Church, it is because I have read the scriptures, that both the Church and I see that the Church clearly is Israel.

Romans 11?

Exactly! It proves my point.

[2Corrie]

It is because the scriptures are such an integral part of the life of the Church, it is because I have read the scriptures, that both the Church and I see that the Church clearly is Israel.

Romans 11?

Exactly! It proves my point.

Perhaps you'd like to ellaborate, because as I read it,  it proves the exact opposite!

[ad_orientem]

The olive tree is Israel. The faithless Jews were cut off and the Gentiles grafted on.

[DaveM]

The olive tree is Israel. The faithless Jews were cut off and the Gentiles grafted on.

And part darkness has come upon Israel the Church until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled!  Perhaps the one thing on this thread that we could all be in agreement with.

[2Corrie]

I would agree 

[Spud]

Symbolic of what, that is important.

The sword represents the Gospel, which kills them (19:21). Getting eaten by the birds symbolizes being cursed, in other words eternally damned.

The sword is the word of God, and His enemies will be eternally damned. Do you agree that  the second coming of the Lord and the defeat of His  enemies is in view here?

The second coming is pictured in 20:9. See 2 Thess 1:7, 2 Thess 2:8, 2 Peter 3:10-13, where it is referred to as a fiery ordeal.