Revelation 20 the 1000 years

[2Corrie]

Symbolic of what, that is important.

The sword represents the Gospel, which kills them (19:21). Getting eaten by the birds symbolizes being cursed, in other words eternally damned.

The sword is the word of God, and His enemies will be eternally damned. Do you agree that  the second coming of the Lord and the defeat of His  enemies is in view here?

The second coming is pictured in 20:9. See 2 Thess 1:7, 2 Thess 2:8, 2 Peter 3:10-13, where it is referred to as a fiery ordeal.

Do you seen any parallel between 2 Thess 2:8 and Rev 19:20 ?

[~TW~]

Nice to see the thread has exploded in to life,a lot to take in since I last looked,Just to say will reply later and I to hold the Church is Israel.

Dave M you have not answered my question.

   ~TW~

[~TW~]

rewind to Rev 19:11

And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

The rider is Christ, and he has a double edged sword coming from his mouth, with which he smites the nations. This is symbolic, agreed?

 Sorry Spud the rider on the white horse is not Jesus,the 4 horsemen are Christ appointed instruments of Judgement.

 This also shows that Dave M has it wrong,Dave M tells us we have to much trouble in the world to be in the millennium he has not read

 Rev 6 :1:7. Also Spud DO NOT confuse the white horse in Rev 6 with the account in Rev 19.

 Also remember Spud the term IT IS GIVEN Christ is not given permission by any one he is lord of all he give permission.

 The Horses can be given names  Conquest-Bloodshed-Famine-Death

    ~TW~

 

[DaveM]

Nice to see the thread has exploded in to life,a lot to take in since I last looked,Just to say will reply later and I to hold the Church is Israel.

Dave M you have not answered my question.

   ~TW~

\
Why not simply accept what Scripture says as being correct?  Satan is bound, thrown into the pit, the pit is shut and sealed, thus isolating him completely and making it impossible for him to move around the earth (from going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it as Job 1:7 says).  So in Revelation 20 he is totally neutralised and is incapable of deceiving even the nations.  Such a description stands in total conflict to the notion of him being free to prowl around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour’.

The fact that I as a Christian have the authority through the power of the Spirit to ‘bind Satan’ in a local sense and hence neutralise his attacks on me does not fall into the same category at all.  Satan can still prowl around but I can negate his attempts to attempt to deceive me.

[DaveM]

rewind to Rev 19:11

And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

The rider is Christ, and he has a double edged sword coming from his mouth, with which he smites the nations.

The rider of the white horse in Rev 19:11 is undoubtedly Christ, coming to fight on behalf of His people (Israel) and to defeat the Antichrist and the nations who are alliance with him and to bind the evil one for the duration of the millennium. This takes place right at the end of Tribulation.  You might care to look at the great battle for Jerusalem in Zech 14 which in my view is the same event.

Of course this white horse and its rider are not to be confused with the white horse of Rev 6.  This is much earlier in Tribulation and here the rider is an evil conqueror, either the Antichrist or one of his minions, intent on global conquest and establishing the world wide reign of the beast.

[Spud]

rewind to Rev 19:11

And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

The rider is Christ, and he has a double edged sword coming from his mouth, with which he smites the nations. This is symbolic, agreed?

 Sorry Spud the rider on the white horse is not Jesus,the 4 horsemen are Christ appointed instruments of Judgement.

 This also shows that Dave M has it wrong,Dave M tells us we have to much trouble in the world to be in the millennium he has not read

 Rev 6 :1:7. Also Spud DO NOT confuse the white horse in Rev 6 with the account in Rev 19.

 Also remember Spud the term IT IS GIVEN Christ is not given permission by any one he is lord of all he give permission.

 The Horses can be given names  Conquest-Bloodshed-Famine-Death

    ~TW~

Hi TW, I was talking about the rider on the white horse in Revelation 19.

[~TW~]

rewind to Rev 19:11

And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

The rider is Christ, and he has a double edged sword coming from his mouth, with which he smites the nations. This is symbolic, agreed?

Sorry Spud so we have a White Horse in Rev 6 along with 3 other horses  conquest-bloodshed-famine-and - death which we see all around us today.Now a reading of Rev 19 we have The Lord here and this is the 2nd coming the final day,now Dave M how do you fit in a 1000 years after the final day.

  ~TW~

 Sorry Spud the rider on the white horse is not Jesus,the 4 horsemen are Christ appointed instruments of Judgement.

 This also shows that Dave M has it wrong,Dave M tells us we have to much trouble in the world to be in the millennium he has not read

 Rev 6 :1:7. Also Spud DO NOT confuse the white horse in Rev 6 with the account in Rev 19.

 Also remember Spud the term IT IS GIVEN Christ is not given permission by any one he is lord of all he give permission.

 The Horses can be given names  Conquest-Bloodshed-Famine-Death

    ~TW~

Hi TW, I was talking about the rider on the white horse in Revelation 19.

[Spud]

Nice to see the thread has exploded in to life,a lot to take in since I last looked,Just to say will reply later and I to hold the Church is Israel.

Dave M you have not answered my question.

   ~TW~

\
Why not simply accept what Scripture says as being correct?  Satan is bound, thrown into the pit, the pit is shut and sealed, thus isolating him completely and making it impossible for him to move around the earth (from going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it as Job 1:7 says).  So in Revelation 20 he is totally neutralised and is incapable of deceiving even the nations.  Such a description stands in total conflict to the notion of him being free to prowl around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour’.

The fact that I as a Christian have the authority through the power of the Spirit to ‘bind Satan’ in a local sense and hence neutralise his attacks on me does not fall into the same category at all.  Satan can still prowl around but I can negate his attempts to attempt to deceive me.

Doesn't this suggest that it is the Church that binds Satan during the millennium? In Matthew 16:18-19 Peter is given the key to the kingdom of heaven. He is told at the same time that whatever he binds and looses on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. In Matthew 18:18 this is mentioned in the context of Church discipline, which involves binding Satan. So the key in Revelation 20:1 is this same key, which Jesus gave to Peter and the apostles.

[~TW~]

Nice to see the thread has exploded in to life,a lot to take in since I last looked,Just to say will reply later and I to hold the Church is Israel.

Dave M you have not answered my question.

   ~TW~

\
Why not simply accept what Scripture says as being correct?  Satan is bound, thrown into the pit, the pit is shut and sealed, thus isolating him completely and making it impossible for him to move around the earth (from going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it as Job 1:7 says).  So in Revelation 20 he is totally neutralised and is incapable of deceiving even the nations.  Such a description stands in total conflict to the notion of him being free to prowl around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour’.

The fact that I as a Christian have the authority through the power of the Spirit to ‘bind Satan’ in a local sense and hence neutralise his attacks on me does not fall into the same category at all.  Satan can still prowl around but I can negate his attempts to attempt to deceive me.

Doesn't this suggest that it is the Church that binds Satan during the millennium? In Matthew 16:18-19 Peter is given the key to the kingdom of heaven. He is told at the same time that whatever he binds and looses on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. In Matthew 18:18 this is mentioned in the context of Church discipline, which involves binding Satan. So the key in Revelation 20:1 is this same key, which Jesus gave to Peter and the apostles.

 Spud you are being mislead first Rev 19 note   READ THIS   17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.-----------------------

This is the Great Day the End the Final Battle NOW  the op posers of God are Gone .But in REV 20 we read -------------------- 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.------------So Spud what nations will not be deceived? We have no nations they went in REV 19

 ~TW~

[BashfulAnthony]

Hi,

Can I refer you to some of the sites available on Marcion and his beliefs, which deal with this in depth.

I don't think we should derail this thread with another discussion on Marcion.  Perhaps a topic for another day.

Plus the fact that I do not believe a meaningful discussion on eschatology and the place of Israel in God's plans can be conducted on the basis of the New Testament only.

I do not believe that Israel has a special place in God's Plan:  it is for all, and to leave the New Testament out of your discussion is to, in effect, renounce the teaching of Jesus.  Is that what you mean?  If not, how does the teaching of Jesus, and later Paul, fit into this?

[Spud]

This is the Great Day the End the Final Battle NOW  the op posers of God are Gone ....

...So Spud what nations will not be deceived? We have no nations they went in REV 19

 ~TW~

Very well put, TW. Now I recall you saying that Rev 19 and 20 are not in sequence. I am more persuaded that they are in sequence, and that Rev 19 refers to something which happened before Satan was definitively bound. Rev 19 refers to the beast from the sea (Rev 13) being destroyed. This beast represents the Gentile empire which protected Israel and culminated in the Roman empire:

The four beasts were cherubim protectors for Israel, just as the Metal Man of Daniel 2 was. God established the gentile empire for this purpose from Nebuchadnezzar to Vespasian. Each head of the beast, in turn, was called to bare its teeth and fangs to ward off the enemies of the saints. When the Babylonians stopped protecting the church (Daniel 5), God brought in the righteous Cyrus and Darius. When the Persians stopped protecting the church, God brought in Alexander as a deliverer (Zechariah 9). When the Greeks stopped protecting the church, God brought in the Romans (Daniel 11). The Romans are seen protecting the church throughout Acts, but in Revelation 13, Satan seduces the beast to turn against God’s people.

http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/biblical-horizons/no-73-a-correction-on-daniel-7/
Also in Rev 19, the false prophet (beast from the earth, Rev 13) is destroyed. This beast I take to be the Herod-Highpriesthood complex, which is represented by its two horns.
After the destruction of the Herodian temple, this beast is redundant, which is what Rev 19 means when it says it was destroyed. Similarly after AD 70, Rome was no longer part of God's plan for his people. This is pictured as destruction in the lake of fire.
The Millennium, then, began after these events.

[Spud]

Symbolic of what, that is important.

The sword represents the Gospel, which kills them (19:21). Getting eaten by the birds symbolizes being cursed, in other words eternally damned.

The sword is the word of God, and His enemies will be eternally damned. Do you agree that  the second coming of the Lord and the defeat of His  enemies is in view here?

The second coming is pictured in 20:9. See 2 Thess 1:7, 2 Thess 2:8, 2 Peter 3:10-13, where it is referred to as a fiery ordeal.

Do you seen any parallel between 2 Thess 2:8 and Rev 19:20 ?

Yes I do, and I'm revising my thoughts about this.

This link shows how in II Thess. Paul's mention of the coming of Christ could refer to his judgment on Jerusalem:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/0000_preston_second-thess.html

(NB that website contains hyperpreterism saying that the resurrection took place in AD 70. I do not agree with this)

[Spud]

Rev. 20:10 confirms that chapters 19 and 20 are in sequence, when it says that the devil was thrown into the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet are. They are there already, having been put there in 19:20.

[2Corrie]

Rev. 20:10 confirms that chapters 19 and 20 are in sequence, when it says that the devil was thrown into the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet are. They are there already, having been put there in 19:20.

I was reading that today and came to the same conclusion, then I compared to Rev 16:12-14 which seems to have parallels, but seems to refer to the last battle. What do you think?

[~TW~]

In Rev 19 the picture is clear the 2nd Coming the End the Final Day.We are clearly told goodbye nations.

Rev 20 tells us Satan is bound in order the nations are not deceived,I understand this and have no problems but for those who have a literal 1000 years the question is where did these nations come from.

 So I maintain the millennium now,Satan bound now the four horses Conquest-bloodshed- famine-death ride out now Rev 6 but some time in the future Satan will be released for a short time.

 Also as I told Spud months ago you do not read Revelation in a Chronological order.What you have are a series of events starting and ending.

 ~TW~

[Spud]

Rev. 20:10 confirms that chapters 19 and 20 are in sequence, when it says that the devil was thrown into the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet are. They are there already, having been put there in 19:20.

I was reading that today and came to the same conclusion, then I compared to Rev 16:12-14 which seems to have parallels, but seems to refer to the last battle. What do you think?

I think the last battle, still to come, is pictured in 20:7-10. Rev 16:12-16 pictures the same battle as in 19:17-21.

[Spud]

In Rev 19 the picture is clear the 2nd Coming the End the Final Day.We are clearly told goodbye nations.

Revelation 19:21 is not talking about a physical battle. Unless the Lord had very strong teeth.

[~TW~]

In Rev 19 the picture is clear the 2nd Coming the End the Final Day.We are clearly told goodbye nations.

Revelation 19:21 is not talking about a physical battle. Unless the Lord had very strong teeth.

Spud you need to concentrate------21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. It is the birds ? vultures maybe that have the strong teeth.

~TW~

[Spud]

In Rev 19 the picture is clear the 2nd Coming the End the Final Day.We are clearly told goodbye nations.

Revelation 19:21 is not talking about a physical battle. Unless the Lord had very strong teeth.

Spud you need to concentrate------21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. It is the birds ? vultures maybe that have the strong teeth.

~TW~

I was thinking of holding a sword in His mouth, which would require strong teeth.

[DaveM]

Rev. 20:10 confirms that chapters 19 and 20 are in sequence, when it says that the devil was thrown into the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet are. They are there already, having been put there in 19:20.

Hi Spud,

Apologies for not coming back to you earlier on some of your previous posts.  Have been running Bible Studies and also hiking in our superb mountains and enjoying the beauty of God's (young??) creation over the past couple of days.  Will try and respond when I am able.

I agree with the above that chapters 19 and 20 are in sequence and also noting in particular 2 Corrie's important reminder about not being influenced by artificial chapter divisions.  I would also place Rev 18 before Chapter 16 but  in my view 16, 18 and 19 are all late Tribulation events.  Rev 17 also precedes Rev 16 & 18 but in my view much earlier, probably around mid-Tribulation.  Rev 17 is best understood as the destruction of the Apostate Church whereas Chapter 18 probably represents the destruction of the evil commercial (and also political) systems of the world.

Enjoy your day, Dave

[DaveM]

This link shows how in II Thess. Paul's mention of the coming of Christ could refer to his judgment on Jerusalem:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/0000_preston_second-thess.html

(NB that website contains hyperpreterism saying that the resurrection took place in AD 70. I do not agree with this)
[/quote]

Hi Spud,

Well I am pleased to see that you reject an AD70 resurrection.  But quite honestly when you comes across statements like this which are complete nonsense, surely it should be obvious that the author has zero theological insights, has a very low regard for the authority of Scripture and that the Spirit has nothing to say to him.  Best suggestion I can make is that you reject such sources in their entirety as being totally unreliable..

[DaveM]

In Rev 19 the picture is clear the 2nd Coming the End the Final Day.We are clearly told goodbye nations.

Rev 20 tells us Satan is bound in order the nations are not deceived,I understand this and have no problems but for those who have a literal 1000 years the question is where did these nations come from.

 So I maintain the millennium now,Satan bound now the four horses Conquest-bloodshed- famine-death ride out now Rev 6 but some time in the future Satan will be released for a short time.

 Also as I told Spud months ago you do not read Revelation in a Chronological order.What you have are a series of events starting and ending.

 ~TW~

One small problem concerning the total absence of the nations.  Zech 14 also tells us about this same great battle when all the nations come against Jerusalem and are soundly defeated.  But then in Zech 14:16 we are informed that all the survivors ('any who are left of all the nations that came up against Jerusalem') will be required to come up to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles.  So the armies themselves may have been totally wiped out but not the totality of the inhabitants of the nations.  They are still alive and kicking (maybe only just) in Rev 20.   

[~TW~]

In Rev 19 the picture is clear the 2nd Coming the End the Final Day.We are clearly told goodbye nations.

Rev 20 tells us Satan is bound in order the nations are not deceived,I understand this and have no problems but for those who have a literal 1000 years the question is where did these nations come from.

 So I maintain the millennium now,Satan bound now the four horses Conquest-bloodshed- famine-death ride out now Rev 6 but some time in the future Satan will be released for a short time.

 Also as I told Spud months ago you do not read Revelation in a Chronological order.What you have are a series of events starting and ending.

 ~TW~

One small problem concerning the total absence of the nations.  Zech 14 also tells us about this same great battle when all the nations come against Jerusalem and are soundly defeated.  But then in Zech 14:16 we are informed that all the survivors ('any who are left of all the nations that came up against Jerusalem') will be required to come up to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles.  So the armies themselves may have been totally wiped out but not the totality of the inhabitants of the nations.  They are still alive and kicking (maybe only just) in Rev 20.   

Read Rev 19 the birds pick at the bones.

All Gone Dave.

 ~TW~

[DaveM]

In Rev 19 the picture is clear the 2nd Coming the End the Final Day.We are clearly told goodbye nations.

Rev 20 tells us Satan is bound in order the nations are not deceived,I understand this and have no problems but for those who have a literal 1000 years the question is where did these nations come from.

 So I maintain the millennium now,Satan bound now the four horses Conquest-bloodshed- famine-death ride out now Rev 6 but some time in the future Satan will be released for a short time.

 Also as I told Spud months ago you do not read Revelation in a Chronological order.What you have are a series of events starting and ending.

 ~TW~

One small problem concerning the total absence of the nations.  Zech 14 also tells us about this same great battle when all the nations come against Jerusalem and are soundly defeated.  But then in Zech 14:16 we are informed that all the survivors ('any who are left of all the nations that came up against Jerusalem') will be required to come up to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles.  So the armies themselves may have been totally wiped out but not the totality of the inhabitants of the nations.  They are still alive and kicking (maybe only just) in Rev 20.   

Read Rev 19 the birds pick at the bones.

All Gone Dave.

 ~TW~

Fortunately a careful reading of Rev 19:18-19 shows that it supports Zechariah in that it was the armies of the kings of the earth that had been assembled to do battle against the armies of heaven, Rev 19:14, that were all gone.  Back home at the ranch those who were not part of these armies were not consumed.  God's word does not contradict itself.

[Spud]

TW, 2Corrie, Dave, ad_O et al,

This is not easy stuff imo. I usually find something to contradict what I thought was a correct interpretation when studying Revelation. Plus it is 30 degrees which doesn't help the concentration!

Dave, you mentioned ch. 17 and 18. I wanted to point out how part of this passage is very similar to Ezekiel 16, which describes Jerusalem as a harlot. I would recommend people read that and ask: this harlot who is destroyed in Revelation 17 and 18- could John be talking about Jerusalem here, and would that fit in with Jesus' prediction of the destruction of that city? Bear in mind Rev 11:8 (cf Rev 16:19, 18:10) which says the 'great city' is where the Lord was crucified.

If this is correct, and if Revelation is a sequential story, then it must be that the millennium follows AD 70 which is pictured in 17-18.

Remember to look through Ezekiel 16.