Revelation 20 the 1000 years

[~TW~]

If correct, and if Revelation is a sequential story, then the millennium follows AD 70.
--------------------------------------------So you agree with me the millennium is now  good.
~TW~

[Spud]

TW- yes, I reckon the millennium is now, even though Satan seems to be unbound a lot of the time.

[~TW~]

TW- yes, I reckon the millennium is now, even though Satan seems to be unbound a lot of the time.

 Could it be you need to look at what God is doing Judgments for example.Or do you think he is doing nothing,Revelation says he is very busy.

             ~TW~

[Spud]

In Rev 19 the picture is clear the 2nd Coming the End the Final Day.We are clearly told goodbye nations.

Rev 20 tells us Satan is bound in order the nations are not deceived,I understand this and have no problems but for those who have a literal 1000 years the question is where did these nations come from.

 So I maintain the millennium now,Satan bound now the four horses Conquest-bloodshed- famine-death ride out now Rev 6 but some time in the future Satan will be released for a short time.

 Also as I told Spud months ago you do not read Revelation in a Chronological order.What you have are a series of events starting and ending.

 ~TW~

One small problem concerning the total absence of the nations.  Zech 14 also tells us about this same great battle when all the nations come against Jerusalem and are soundly defeated.  But then in Zech 14:16 we are informed that all the survivors ('any who are left of all the nations that came up against Jerusalem') will be required to come up to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles.  So the armies themselves may have been totally wiped out but not the totality of the inhabitants of the nations.  They are still alive and kicking (maybe only just) in Rev 20.   

Read Rev 19 the birds pick at the bones.

All Gone Dave.

 ~TW~

Fortunately a careful reading of Rev 19:18-19 shows that it supports Zechariah in that it was the armies of the kings of the earth that had been assembled to do battle against the armies of heaven, Rev 19:14, that were all gone.  Back home at the ranch those who were not part of these armies were not consumed.  God's word does not contradict itself.

Verse 18 lists two groups of four:
1) kings, generals, mighty men, horses and their riders.
2) all people, free and slave, small and great.

The grouping into fours here suggests a worldwide scope (four corners of the earth imagery).

Group 2 suggests all people, not just military.

[~TW~]

The key word Spud is All, as in all people there is no room for a JW paradise earth the final day is the final day.

 Also an interesting question for Dave M and others is.

 What is the Lord doing today.

  ~TW~

[DaveM]

In Rev 19 the picture is clear the 2nd Coming the End the Final Day.We are clearly told goodbye nations.

Rev 20 tells us Satan is bound in order the nations are not deceived,I understand this and have no problems but for those who have a literal 1000 years the question is where did these nations come from.

 So I maintain the millennium now,Satan bound now the four horses Conquest-bloodshed- famine-death ride out now Rev 6 but some time in the future Satan will be released for a short time.

 Also as I told Spud months ago you do not read Revelation in a Chronological order.What you have are a series of events starting and ending.

 ~TW~

One small problem concerning the total absence of the nations.  Zech 14 also tells us about this same great battle when all the nations come against Jerusalem and are soundly defeated.  But then in Zech 14:16 we are informed that all the survivors ('any who are left of all the nations that came up against Jerusalem') will be required to come up to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles.  So the armies themselves may have been totally wiped out but not the totality of the inhabitants of the nations.  They are still alive and kicking (maybe only just) in Rev 20.   

Read Rev 19 the birds pick at the bones.

All Gone Dave.

 ~TW~

Fortunately a careful reading of Rev 19:18-19 shows that it supports Zechariah in that it was the armies of the kings of the earth that had been assembled to do battle against the armies of heaven, Rev 19:14, that were all gone.  Back home at the ranch those who were not part of these armies were not consumed.  God's word does not contradict itself.

Verse 18 lists two groups of four:
1) kings, generals, mighty men, horses and their riders.
2) all people, free and slave, small and great.

The grouping into fours here suggests a worldwide scope (four corners of the earth imagery).

Group 2 suggests all people, not just military.

Four groups representing a typical composition of an army in the time John was writing and even today in many places.  Just have a look at the mix of people being forced into service in a place like Africa at the present times.  Press gangs were still operating in England not that far back.  So I see no conflict with my position.

I also have a real problem with the view that the nations are completely eliminated in that this stands in contradiction to Zech 14 which is clearly a chapter on Messiah's coming and the full establishment of His Kingdom.  This is a time when the Lord will be King over all the earth and His name will be the only one (Vs 9).   Yet there are still nations around to attend the Feast of Tabernacles.

[DaveM]

The key word Spud is All, as in all people there is no room for a JW paradise earth the final day is the final day.

 Also an interesting question for Dave M and others is.

 What is the Lord doing today.

  ~TW~

Well one thing He is definitely doing is sitting at the right hand of the Father and making intercession for the saints.

[DaveM]

TW, 2Corrie, Dave, ad_O et al,

This is not easy stuff imo. I usually find something to contradict what I thought was a correct interpretation when studying Revelation. Plus it is 30 degrees which doesn't help the concentration!

Dave, you mentioned ch. 17 and 18. I wanted to point out how part of this passage is very similar to Ezekiel 16, which describes Jerusalem as a harlot. I would recommend people read that and ask: this harlot who is destroyed in Revelation 17 and 18- could John be talking about Jerusalem here, and would that fit in with Jesus' prediction of the destruction of that city? Bear in mind Rev 11:8 (cf Rev 16:19, 18:10) which says the 'great city' is where the Lord was crucified.

If this is correct, and if Revelation is a sequential story, then it must be that the millennium follows AD 70 which is pictured in 17-18.

Remember to look through Ezekiel 16.

Hi Spud.

Let me start by stating why Rev 17 cannot be about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.  Amongst serious Christians there is general agreement that Revelation was written around AD 95 - 96.  Rev 1:19 says, 'Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things'.   The things which you have seen is best understood as the vision of the Lord which John was given in Chapter 1.  The things which are would then refer to the letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor at the time.

So what about 'the things which will take place after these things'?  Well in Rev 4:1 John in his vision is called to heaven in order that he might be shown, 'what must take place after these things'.  However you might understand and try and interpret all the symbolism from Rev 4 onwards, Rev 4:1 is a simple straight forward statement translated into simple straight forward English from simple straight forward Greek.  From here on in Revelation John is being given visions of things which are to take place in the future going forward from the present.  And the future must be  looking forward from AD 95/96 not looking back to AD 70.  Retrospective interpretation of prophecy violates sound principles of Biblical exegesis in my view.

Now Ezekiel 16 is undoubtedly about Jerusalem.  This is stated plainly in verse 2.  This section was probably written before 586 BC and therefore the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in that year is the most probable fulfilment.

But irrespective of whether Ezekiel 16 is referring to the 586 BC or AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem it has no bearing on Rev 17 because Rev 17 is clearly not about Jerusalem.  Rev 17 is about the judgement of the great harlot.  And verse 1 gives us a critical clue as to her possible identity.  She is the one 'who sits on many waters.  Now have a look at Jeremiah 51.  Together with Jer 50 this is a prophecy against Babylon.  And in Jer 51:13 Babylon is describe as 'you who dwell by many waters'.  So the harlot is clearly associated with the Babylon that symbolise the evil centre of power of the Beast, not Jerusalem.  Rev 17:7-9 gives added support to this.

So in my view there is no case to equate Ezek 16 with Rev 17.

Enjoy your day.
Dave       

[ad_orientem]

TW, 2Corrie, Dave, ad_O et al,

This is not easy stuff imo. I usually find something to contradict what I thought was a correct interpretation when studying Revelation. Plus it is 30 degrees which doesn't help the concentration!

Dave, you mentioned ch. 17 and 18. I wanted to point out how part of this passage is very similar to Ezekiel 16, which describes Jerusalem as a harlot. I would recommend people read that and ask: this harlot who is destroyed in Revelation 17 and 18- could John be talking about Jerusalem here, and would that fit in with Jesus' prediction of the destruction of that city? Bear in mind Rev 11:8 (cf Rev 16:19, 18:10) which says the 'great city' is where the Lord was crucified.

If this is correct, and if Revelation is a sequential story, then it must be that the millennium follows AD 70 which is pictured in 17-18.

Remember to look through Ezekiel 16.

In my opinion I would argue that the thousand years begins at the resurrection or at the very latest at the ascension when Christ takes his place at the righthand of the Father.

[Spud]

The key word Spud is All, as in all people.
  ~TW~

This is what I thought, but apparently Dave hasn't noticed it yet.

[BashfulAnthony]

Sorry to upset you, but this long thread is totally irrelevant and frankly, a waste of time.

[~TW~]

TW, 2Corrie, Dave, ad_O et al,

This is not easy stuff imo. I usually find something to contradict what I thought was a correct interpretation when studying Revelation. Plus it is 30 degrees which doesn't help the concentration!

Dave, you mentioned ch. 17 and 18. I wanted to point out how part of this passage is very similar to Ezekiel 16, which describes Jerusalem as a harlot. I would recommend people read that and ask: this harlot who is destroyed in Revelation 17 and 18- could John be talking about Jerusalem here, and would that fit in with Jesus' prediction of the destruction of that city? Bear in mind Rev 11:8 (cf Rev 16:19, 18:10) which says the 'great city' is where the Lord was crucified.

If this is correct, and if Revelation is a sequential story, then it must be that the millennium follows AD 70 which is pictured in 17-18.

Remember to look through Ezekiel 16.

In my opinion I would argue that the thousand years begins at the resurrection or at the very latest at the ascension when Christ takes his place at the righthand of the Father.

No Problem with that.
~TW~

[DaveM]

The key word Spud is All, as in all people.
  ~TW~

This is what I thought, but apparently Dave hasn't noticed it yet.

In Genesis 14:20 Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of all he had.  How do you interpret "all' here?

[2Corrie]

Sorry to upset you, but this long thread is totally irrelevant and frankly, a waste of time.

Why would a discussion on the Revelation of our Lord be irrelevant?

[2Corrie]

Here's where I'm at: Rev 19 and 20 are sequential and the parallels with Rev 16 support the idea that the context is the great battle at the time of our Lord's return. 

Here's where I become confused:

Satan being bound now, and released just before the last battle - I can see how this interpretation can come about from reading some of the texts - it makes sense to think that there is one last battle - not one either side of future millennium. This view would also reconcile the apparent two judgements (judgement of the nations, and the white throne judgement) it makes some sort of sense if they are one.

The thing which prevents me completely buying into the above however, is that we then have to throw away or spiritualise all the old testament prophecies relating to the millennium period. (Davem has already referred to many of these).

Thoughts?

[BashfulAnthony]

Sorry to upset you, but this long thread is totally irrelevant and frankly, a waste of time.

Why would a discussion on the Revelation of our Lord be irrelevant?

It almost seems you guys are making it up as you go along_  the thread is full of conflicting interpretations; and in the end, nobody really knows what the Book is all about, or whether it is actually credible.

[Spud]

I also have a real problem with the view that the nations are completely eliminated

I think you are right in the sense that Rev. 16:16 and Rev. 19 picture a spiritual battle between the Church and the Roman Empire ('oikumenes', 16:14), rather than all the nations.

[Spud]

TW, 2Corrie, Dave, ad_O et al,

This is not easy stuff imo. I usually find something to contradict what I thought was a correct interpretation when studying Revelation. Plus it is 30 degrees which doesn't help the concentration!

Dave, you mentioned ch. 17 and 18. I wanted to point out how part of this passage is very similar to Ezekiel 16, which describes Jerusalem as a harlot. I would recommend people read that and ask: this harlot who is destroyed in Revelation 17 and 18- could John be talking about Jerusalem here, and would that fit in with Jesus' prediction of the destruction of that city? Bear in mind Rev 11:8 (cf Rev 16:19, 18:10) which says the 'great city' is where the Lord was crucified.

If this is correct, and if Revelation is a sequential story, then it must be that the millennium follows AD 70 which is pictured in 17-18.

Remember to look through Ezekiel 16.

In my opinion I would argue that the thousand years begins at the resurrection or at the very latest at the ascension when Christ takes his place at the righthand of the Father.

No Problem with that.
~TW~

I agree that the binding of Satan occurred at the resurrection. But it also talks about Satan being not just bound, but thrown into the abyss, and it being sealed over him, I think there is a good case for saying that Satan could not be fully prevented from deceiving the nations until the Jews and 'Judaizers' (who tried to persuade Christians to return to Jewish ways) were dealt with. The temple's destruction accomplished that.

[~TW~]

Sorry to upset you, but this long thread is totally irrelevant and frankly, a waste of time.

Why would a discussion on the Revelation of our Lord be irrelevant?

It almost seems you guys are making it up as you go along_  the thread is full of conflicting interpretations; and in the end, nobody really knows what the Book is all about, or whether it is actually credible.

Well it would seem that way to you,you have no interest in this book.  Why not post your objections ONE AT A TIME

 Spud the point of this thread is to say the millennium is now and not future.

  ~TW~

[BashfulAnthony]

and.

Why would a discussion on the Revelation of our Lord be irrelevant?

It almost seems you guys are making it up as you go along_  the thread is full of conflicting interpretations; and in the end, nobody really knows what the Book is all about, or whether it is actually credible.

Well it would seem that way to you,you have no interest in this book.  Why not post your objections ONE AT A TIME

 Spud the point of this thread is to say the millennium is now and not future.

  ~TW~

I've already posted my objections; and to save time, I did them all in one go - see above.

[Spud]

Here's where I'm at: Rev 19 and 20 are sequential and the parallels with Rev 16 support the idea that the context is the great battle at the time of our Lord's return. 

Here's where I become confused:

Satan being bound now, and released just before the last battle - I can see how this interpretation can come about from reading some of the texts - it makes sense to think that there is one last battle - not one either side of future millennium. This view would also reconcile the apparent two judgements (judgement of the nations, and the white throne judgement) it makes some sort of sense if they are one.

The thing which prevents me completely buying into the above however, is that we then have to throw away or spiritualise all the old testament prophecies relating to the millennium period. (Davem has already referred to many of these).

Thoughts?

I think it's important to understand just how glorious the present millennial kingdom is, then it is easier to see how OT prophecies are fulfilled now.

[~TW~]

Here's where I'm at: Rev 19 and 20 are sequential and the parallels with Rev 16 support the idea that the context is the great battle at the time of our Lord's return. 

Here's where I become confused:

Satan being bound now, and released just before the last battle - I can see how this interpretation can come about from reading some of the texts - it makes sense to think that there is one last battle - not one either side of future millennium. This view would also reconcile the apparent two judgements (judgement of the nations, and the white throne judgement) it makes some sort of sense if they are one.

The thing which prevents me completely buying into the above however, is that we then have to throw away or spiritualise all the old testament prophecies relating to the millennium period. (Davem has already referred to many of these).

Thoughts?

I think it's important to understand just how glorious the present millennial kingdom is, then it is easier to see how OT prophecies are fulfilled now.

Indeed well said.

 ~TW~

[2Corrie]

But they are not all being fulfilled now eg:

They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

And the a wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. Also the cow and the bear will graze,
Their young will lie down together, And the alion will eat straw like the ox. The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den. They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.

No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.

At that time they will call Jerusalem ‘The Throne of the Lord,’ and all the nations will be gathered to it, to Jerusalem, for the name of the Lord; nor will they walk anymore after the stubbornness of their evil heart.

In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, ‘The Lord our righteousness.’

“For from the arising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord of hosts.


To list but a few. I look around me and can only deduce that we are NOT in the millennium now.

[DaveM]

Here's where I'm at: Rev 19 and 20 are sequential and the parallels with Rev 16 support the idea that the context is the great battle at the time of our Lord's return. 

Here's where I become confused:

Satan being bound now, and released just before the last battle - I can see how this interpretation can come about from reading some of the texts - it makes sense to think that there is one last battle - not one either side of future millennium. This view would also reconcile the apparent two judgements (judgement of the nations, and the white throne judgement) it makes some sort of sense if they are one.

The thing which prevents me completely buying into the above however, is that we then have to throw away or spiritualise all the old testament prophecies relating to the millennium period. (Davem has already referred to many of these).

Thoughts?

Perhaps you should not spend too much time concerning yourself with the Judgement of the Nations.  After all we have it on the authority of some here that before we get there the nations will all be gone!!

[DaveM]

2 Corrie,

Post 123.  Well said.