Revelation 20 the 1000 years

[~TW~]

The reason I asked what the beast from the sea represents is more to do with what its heads and horns represent. If the beast symbolizes the Roman empire, then the heads and horns can be explained in terms of its various emperors. If that is wrong, it is still necessary to interpret what they represent if we are going to claim that 19:11ff and 20:7-10 refer to the same event (the second coming and the end of the world).

Hi spud here is how I understand your questions and points.First the beast comes out of the Sea what is the Sea ,I see it as the Nations

ISA 17:12

 12 Hark, the uproar of a multitude of peoples! They roar and thunder like the noise of the seas! Ah, the roar of nations! They roar like the roaring of rushing and mighty waters!
13 The nations will rush and roar like the rushing and roaring of many waters—but [God] will rebuke them, and they will flee far off and will be chased like chaff on the mountains before the wind, and like rolling thistledown or whirling dust of the stubble before the storm.

 Rev 17:15

   15 And [the angel further] said to me, The waters that you observed, where the harlot is seated, are races and multitudes and nations and dialects (languages).

 Now this first beast is closely associated with the beast that comes out of the abyss

 Rev 11 :7
                            7 But when they have finished their testimony and their evidence is all in, the beast (monster) that comes up out of the Abyss (bottomless pit) will wage war on them, and conquer them and kill them.

The sea -born beast symbolizes the persecuting power of Satan embodied in all the nations and governments of the world throughout Church history in all it's forms,which are far to many to list.

 This beast is a slave to Satan and the second beast in the trinity,crowns on horns, where as Satan  {Dragon} has his crown on head and he rules the nations through this trinity.

A note to 2 corrie when you answer my question I will reply to yours.

Here is the question--------------------------Why does God according to their teaching set Satan on them{those in this paradise earth}near  the end of this literal 1000 years for what purpose ?

 We could add is this before the final day /last trumpet or after,know one seems to know.

  ~TW~

[Spud]

Hi TW,
Sorry for the delay in replying. I don't disagree with your post; it is often possible to identify people and situations now which could be said to be represented symbolically in Revelation.
I still believe there is good reason to think that, excluding the post-millennial attack of Satan and the final judgment, its symbols were originally applied to people and events that took place within the generation of the disciples. I think this, firstly because Revelation says several times that these events were to take place 'shortly'. Secondly, because Jesus in his parables and in discourse with his disciples spoke of the nearness of the approaching judgment.

[~TW~]

Hi TW,
Sorry for the delay in replying. I don't disagree with your post; it is often possible to identify people and situations now which could be said to be represented symbolically in Revelation.
I still believe there is good reason to think that, excluding the post-millennial attack of Satan and the final judgment, its symbols were originally applied to people and events that took place within the generation of the disciples. I think this, firstly because Revelation says several times that these events were to take place 'shortly'. Secondly, because Jesus in his parables and in discourse with his disciples spoke of the nearness of the approaching judgment.

Yes Spud I can name two roman chaps in connection with this Nero and Domitian.But all in all the idea of a paradise earth type millennium is a no go.

~TW~

[DaveM]

Hi TW,
I still believe there is good reason to think that, excluding the post-millennial attack of Satan and the final judgment, its symbols were originally applied to people and events that took place within the generation of the disciples. I think this, firstly because Revelation says several times that these events were to take place 'shortly'. Secondly, because Jesus in his parables and in discourse with his disciples spoke of the nearness of the approaching judgment.

A good issue to keep in mind for some future thread.  How we should approach the interpretation of prophecy in  general could produce some interesting debates

[Spud]

Yes Spud I can name two roman chaps in connection with this Nero and Domitian.

I think Nero was the first emporer to actually demand that everybody worshipped him (though I might be wrong). If so then this would make sense of Rev. 13:12. The land beast representing, in part, the corrupt chief priests, who said earlier,"we have no king but Caesar".

But all in all the idea of a paradise earth type millennium is a no go.

~TW~

[~TW~]

Yes Spud I can name two roman chaps in connection with this Nero and Domitian.

I think Nero was the first emporer to actually demand that everybody worshipped him (though I might be wrong). If so then this would make sense of Rev. 13:12. The land beast representing, in part, the corrupt chief priests, who said earlier,"we have no king but Caesar".

But all in all the idea of a paradise earth type millennium is a no go.

~TW~

 Also Spud an interesting scripture comes later,And the sea was no more,we know this refers to nations,so for God to fight the nations at the end of the 1000 years is another big No No, as we have no nations.

 
Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
 
 it all fits together.

  ~TW~

[Spud]

Just to clarify, do you mean that the sea in that verse is purely symbolic? If so, does that mean that the new heaven and earth is also purely symbolic?

[~TW~]

Just to clarify, do you mean that the sea in that verse is purely symbolic? If so, does that mean that the new heaven and earth is also purely symbolic?

 I think it means just that but will check  Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

~TW~

[~TW~]

Spud Matthew Henry puts it better then me.

 http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/revelation/21.html

 ~TW~

[Spud]

Yes Spud I can name two roman chaps in connection with this Nero and Domitian.

I think Nero was the first emporer to actually demand that everybody worshipped him (though I might be wrong). If so then this would make sense of Rev. 13:12. The land beast representing, in part, the corrupt chief priests, who said earlier,"we have no king but Caesar".

But all in all the idea of a paradise earth type millennium is a no go.

~TW~

 Also Spud an interesting scripture comes later,And the sea was no more,we know this refers to nations,so for God to fight the nations at the end of the 1000 years is another big No No, as we have no nations.

 
Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
 
 it all fits together.

  ~TW~

If the sea stood for the gentiles, and if as Matthew Henry says, some understand all that is said in these last two chapters to refer to the state of the church here on earth, could the verse be indicating that there is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile?

[~TW~]

Yes Spud I can name two roman chaps in connection with this Nero and Domitian.

I think Nero was the first emporer to actually demand that everybody worshipped him (though I might be wrong). If so then this would make sense of Rev. 13:12. The land beast representing, in part, the corrupt chief priests, who said earlier,"we have no king but Caesar".

But all in all the idea of a paradise earth type millennium is a no go.

~TW~

 Also Spud an interesting scripture comes later,And the sea was no more,we know this refers to nations,so for God to fight the nations at the end of the 1000 years is another big No No, as we have no nations.

 
Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
 
 it all fits together.

  ~TW~

If the sea stood for the gentiles, and if as Matthew Henry says, some understand all that is said in these last two chapters to refer to the state of the church here on earth, could the verse be indicating that there is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile?

 Yes the Church is Israel .
~TW~

[Spud]

Charles Spurgeon on the meaning of "new heavens and new earth", in one of his sermons:

Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, or any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Kenneth Gentry, "Navigating the Book of Revelation", p.173 says,

Isaiah prophesies the Church age by using dramatic new creation language: “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind” (Isaiah 65:17).

(This might answer Dave's question about Isaiah's prophecies)

http://kloposmasm.com/2010/04/19/revelation-chapter-21-part-1-verses-1-4/

[Spud]

Also Spud an interesting scripture comes later,And the sea was no more,we know this refers to nations,so for God to fight the nations at the end of the 1000 years is another big No No, as we have no nations.

My commentary says that the physical Gentile sea died when the second bowl was poured out, in ch 16. This was in AD 70. The sea which was no longer there at 21:1 is the heavenly sea, which contained the souls of the righteous dead (cf 20:13). I think this is going by a sequential interpretation of the visions in 17:1-22:5.

[~TW~]

Hi Spud at last we have a shilling for the meter.

 ~TW~

[Spud]

Hi Spud at last we have a shilling for the meter.

 ~TW~

I found some nice Americans to chat with about eschatology, on the carm.org forum.

[~TW~]

Hi Spud at last we have a shilling for the meter.

 ~TW~

I found some nice Americans to chat with about eschatology, on the carm.org forum.

Well tell us about it a lot of strange things come out of America.

 ~TW~

[Spud]

A good issue to keep in mind for some future thread.  How we should approach the interpretation of prophecy in  general could produce some interesting debates

We could take Isaiah 13 as an example. This contains a prophecy against Babylon, yet in the middle of the chapter, it says the sun, moon and stars will not show their light. Given that sun moon and stars represented Joseph's family, in his dream, do we agree that Isaiah also intends them to symbolize various rulers of Babylon, and similarly in the olivet discourse Jesus does also ?

[DaveM]

A good issue to keep in mind for some future thread.  How we should approach the interpretation of prophecy in  general could produce some interesting debates

We could take Isaiah 13 as an example. This contains a prophecy against Babylon, yet in the middle of the chapter, it says the sun, moon and stars will not show their light. Given that sun moon and stars represented Joseph's family, in his dream, do we agree that Isaiah also intends them to symbolize various rulers of Babylon, and similarly in the olivet discourse Jesus does also ?

Hi Spud,

I suppose the short answer is ‘No’.  My view is that Isaiah does not intend the sun moon and stars to symbolise various rulers of Babylon, and neither does Jesus in the Olivet discourse.

I think we need to note Isaiah 13:6 here.  ‘Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come! 

I think the term ‘the day of the Lord’ needs to be understood in two possible ways dependent on the context in which it is used.

First it can refer to that final time in history when the Lord returns and exercises judgement on the whole earth.  Secondly it also refers to those times when the Lord intervenes directly during the course of history to exercise judgement on a particular nation or group of peoples who have taken their sin and rebellion against Him to a level which the Lord is no longer prepared to tolerate.  Isaiah 13 is one of the latter category.  As is so often the case in prophecy, these historically fulfilled events also serve as a type and a pointer to a final and complete yet future fulfilment which will take place at the time of the coming ‘great and terrible day of the Lord’ (Micah 4:5). 

In all cases such an intervention is a cataclysmic event as is clearly seen in the Book of Revelation.  I speak, of course, as one who adopts a futurist approach to Revelation.  So it is only to be expected that the prophets would use dramatic imagery in attempting to emphasise the catastrophic nature of the event.  So not surprising that this would include symbolism related to cataclysmic events in the celestial realm.

Now as regards the final ‘great and terrible day of the Lord’ I would not be surprised if these celestial disasters manifested themselves as being literally true.  Time will tell.  But I am comfortable with a more symbolic interpretation in the case of Isaiah 13:10.  However, I would not exclude the possibility of some more literal fulfilment having taken place.  Considering Babylon’s geographical location I would not preclude the possibility of a strong Shamal wind whipping up a dust storm of sufficient magnitude to have obscured the celestial bodies for several days at the time of the fulfilment of the prophecy.

So to conclude.  My understanding in brief.  Isaiah 10:13.  Symbolism? Probably.  Representing the various rulers of Babylon? No.  Representing actual celestial bodies?  Yes.

Finally a question in reply to a question. Isaiah 13:3.  Who are ‘my consecrated ones, my mighty men my proudly exulting ones’ whom the Lord has Himself commanded and summoned to execute His anger?

Enjoy your day, Dave

[~TW~]

Hi TW,
I still believe there is good reason to think that, excluding the post-millennial attack of Satan and the final judgment, its symbols were originally applied to people and events that took place within the generation of the disciples. I think this, firstly because Revelation says several times that these events were to take place 'shortly'. Secondly, because Jesus in his parables and in discourse with his disciples spoke of the nearness of the approaching judgment.

A good issue to keep in mind for some future thread.  How we should approach the interpretation of prophecy in  general could produce some interesting debates

Do you a prophecy in mind Dave,why not post it,give us a chance to talk about it.

 ~TW~

[Spud]

A good issue to keep in mind for some future thread.  How we should approach the interpretation of prophecy in  general could produce some interesting debates

We could take Isaiah 13 as an example. This contains a prophecy against Babylon, yet in the middle of the chapter, it says the sun, moon and stars will not show their light. Given that sun moon and stars represented Joseph's family, in his dream, do we agree that Isaiah also intends them to symbolize various rulers of Babylon, and similarly in the olivet discourse Jesus does also ?

Hi Spud,

I suppose the short answer is ‘No’.  My view is that Isaiah does not intend the sun moon and stars to symbolise various rulers of Babylon, and neither does Jesus in the Olivet discourse.

I think we need to note Isaiah 13:6 here.  ‘Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come! 

I think the term ‘the day of the Lord’ needs to be understood in two possible ways dependent on the context in which it is used.

First it can refer to that final time in history when the Lord returns and exercises judgement on the whole earth.  Secondly it also refers to those times when the Lord intervenes directly during the course of history to exercise judgement on a particular nation or group of peoples who have taken their sin and rebellion against Him to a level which the Lord is no longer prepared to tolerate.  Isaiah 13 is one of the latter category.  As is so often the case in prophecy, these historically fulfilled events also serve as a type and a pointer to a final and complete yet future fulfilment which will take place at the time of the coming ‘great and terrible day of the Lord’ (Micah 4:5). 

In all cases such an intervention is a cataclysmic event as is clearly seen in the Book of Revelation.  I speak, of course, as one who adopts a futurist approach to Revelation.  So it is only to be expected that the prophets would use dramatic imagery in attempting to emphasise the catastrophic nature of the event.  So not surprising that this would include symbolism related to cataclysmic events in the celestial realm.

Now as regards the final ‘great and terrible day of the Lord’ I would not be surprised if these celestial disasters manifested themselves as being literally true.  Time will tell.  But I am comfortable with a more symbolic interpretation in the case of Isaiah 13:10.  However, I would not exclude the possibility of some more literal fulfilment having taken place.  Considering Babylon’s geographical location I would not preclude the possibility of a strong Shamal wind whipping up a dust storm of sufficient magnitude to have obscured the celestial bodies for several days at the time of the fulfilment of the prophecy.

So to conclude.  My understanding in brief.  Isaiah 10:13.  Symbolism? Probably.  Representing the various rulers of Babylon? No.  Representing actual celestial bodies?  Yes.

Finally a question in reply to a question. Isaiah 13:3.  Who are ‘my consecrated ones, my mighty men my proudly exulting ones’ whom the Lord has Himself commanded and summoned to execute His anger?

Enjoy your day, Dave

Thanks for an interesting post, Dave, and I agree that the astral imagery serves to illustrate the cataclysmic nature of God's intervention in the history of various nations. But I would go further and again refer to Joseph's dream, where the sun, for example, represents his father. The reason for this seems to be that on day 4, God appointed the sun, moon and stars to govern time. So in later poetic writing, people who governed were symbolized by the sun and the moon, or the stars. The king of Babylon was referred to as the morning star in Isaiah 14:12.

You seem to be implying, for example, that the darkening of the sun (Isaiah 13:10) could represent an eclipse. I think this is true, but that it further points to the extinction of (particular) earthly governments on 'the day of the Lord'. This expression "...refers to the rising of the sun- the sun of God's searching light that shows up sin and brings judgment, the sun of God's blazing heat that destroys sin". (to quote from J. B. Jordan's book, Through New Eyes).

Regarding the Olivet discourse, the same can be said for Matthew 24:29, except that Jesus is the sun which shows up sin in the nations as the gospel is taken to them.

PS in answer to your question, I would say that it is the Medes and Persians.

[DaveM]

Thanks for an interesting post, Dave, and I agree that the astral imagery serves to illustrate the cataclysmic nature of God's intervention in the history of various nations. But I would go further and again refer to Joseph's dream, where the sun, for example, represents his father. The reason for this seems to be that on day 4, God appointed the sun, moon and stars to govern time. So in later poetic writing, people who governed were symbolized by the sun and the moon, or the stars. The king of Babylon was referred to as the morning star in Isaiah 14:12.

You seem to be implying, for example, that the darkening of the sun (Isaiah 13:10) could represent an eclipse. I think this is true, but that it further points to the extinction of (particular) earthly governments on 'the day of the Lord'. This expression "...refers to the rising of the sun- the sun of God's searching light that shows up sin and brings judgment, the sun of God's blazing heat that destroys sin". (to quote from J. B. Jordan's book, Through New Eyes).

Regarding the Olivet discourse, the same can be said for Matthew 24:29, except that Jesus is the sun which shows up sin in the nations as the gospel is taken to them.

PS in answer to your question, I would say that it is the Medes and Persians.

Hi Spud,

Thanks for the response.  I think the different views on our understanding of Isaiah 13:10 is perhaps representative of the differences in the pre-millennial and amillennial approach to prophecy.  Those with an amil view tend to ascribe a much higher level of symbolism to prophecy, perhaps because they hold that the great bulk of OT prophecies were fulfilled by AD 70 or earlier.  Premil advocates, on the other hand, would argue that large chunks remain unfulfilled and await a final fulfilment, which will probably be in a more literal sense in many instances.

I am certainly extremely reluctant to ascribe symbolism to the Olivet Discourse and believe we should view these events as being real physical manifestations in the celestial bodies.  In this context it is instructive to compare the parallel Luke account to Matthew 24:29.  In Matt 24:29 we read, ‘Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken’.  But Luke (21:25-26) adds an interesting additional phrase.  “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken   

So in addition to the celestial events, Luke also informs us that these signs will be accompanied by terrestrial events of such a magnitude that they will cause peoples fainting with fear.  And Luke specifically mentions the roaring of the seas and the waves – real actual physical events.  I suspect they could include tsunamis on a scale which would make those we have seen in recent times to pale in comparison when compared to them, triggered by some of the other violent events, like earthquakes, as mentioned by Jesus in the course of this teaching.

But the main point is that I have real problems with an approach to Biblical exegesis which requires one verse (Luke 21:25) to be interpreted symbolically when the very next verse demands a literal interpretation.  And if this requires Luke 21:25 to be interpreted literally then we need to do the same for Matt 24:29.  So the premil view is that this section of the Olivet Discourse refers to post-rapture which, as Revelation makes clear, is a time when all hell breaks loose on earth, a consequence in many instances of catastrophic natural disasters. 
      .
As regards the Medes and Persians being the people referred to in Isaiah 13:3, this view is held by many.  But perhaps you will not be surprised to hear that I do not hold to this view.  True in 13:17 we find the Medes specifically mentioned and they do play an important role in Babylon’s final demise.  But they are not those described in 13:3.  But more about this in my next post when I can find the time to do so.       

[~TW~]

Thanks for an interesting post, Dave, and I agree that the astral imagery serves to illustrate the cataclysmic nature of God's intervention in the history of various nations. But I would go further and again refer to Joseph's dream, where the sun, for example, represents his father. The reason for this seems to be that on day 4, God appointed the sun, moon and stars to govern time. So in later poetic writing, people who governed were symbolized by the sun and the moon, or the stars. The king of Babylon was referred to as the morning star in Isaiah 14:12.

You seem to be implying, for example, that the darkening of the sun (Isaiah 13:10) could represent an eclipse. I think this is true, but that it further points to the extinction of (particular) earthly governments on 'the day of the Lord'. This expression "...refers to the rising of the sun- the sun of God's searching light that shows up sin and brings judgment, the sun of God's blazing heat that destroys sin". (to quote from J. B. Jordan's book, Through New Eyes).

Regarding the Olivet discourse, the same can be said for Matthew 24:29, except that Jesus is the sun which shows up sin in the nations as the gospel is taken to them.

PS in answer to your question, I would say that it is the Medes and Persians.

Hi Spud,

Thanks for the response.  I think the different views on our understanding of Isaiah 13:10 is perhaps representative of the differences in the pre-millennial and amillennial approach to prophecy.  Those with an amil view tend to ascribe a much higher level of symbolism to prophecy, perhaps because they hold that the great bulk of OT prophecies were fulfilled by AD 70 or earlier.  Premil advocates, on the other hand, would argue that large chunks remain unfulfilled and await a final fulfilment, which will probably be in a more literal sense in many instances.

I am certainly extremely reluctant to ascribe symbolism to the Olivet Discourse and believe we should view these events as being real physical manifestations in the celestial bodies.  In this context it is instructive to compare the parallel Luke account to Matthew 24:29.  In Matt 24:29 we read, ‘Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken’.  But Luke (21:25-26) adds an interesting additional phrase.  “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken   

So in addition to the celestial events, Luke also informs us that these signs will be accompanied by terrestrial events of such a magnitude that they will cause peoples fainting with fear.  And Luke specifically mentions the roaring of the seas and the waves – real actual physical events.  I suspect they could include tsunamis on a scale which would make those we have seen in recent times to pale in comparison when compared to them, triggered by some of the other violent events, like earthquakes, as mentioned by Jesus in the course of this teaching.

But the main point is that I have real problems with an approach to Biblical exegesis which requires one verse (Luke 21:25) to be interpreted symbolically when the very next verse demands a literal interpretation.  And if this requires Luke 21:25 to be interpreted literally then we need to do the same for Matt 24:29.  So the premil view is that this section of the Olivet Discourse refers to post-rapture which, as Revelation makes clear, is a time when all hell breaks loose on earth, a consequence in many instances of catastrophic natural disasters. 
      .
As regards the Medes and Persians being the people referred to in Isaiah 13:3, this view is held by many.  But perhaps you will not be surprised to hear that I do not hold to this view.  True in 13:17 we find the Medes specifically mentioned and they do play an important role in Babylon’s final demise.  But they are not those described in 13:3.  But more about this in my next post when I can find the time to do so.     

 Dave a slight change first with a pre-mill view you are sadly living in cloud cuckoo land many years ago,many many years ago I had a pre mill pastor.I did not know what the terms were pre-post-non meant nothing to me.

I had no idea of any of these terms,so he gives me a book read this he says Hal Lindsey Late Great Planet Earth this will kick off soon he says,also we have sent all the parts to Israel to build the new temple.All that was over 30 years ago Hal Lindsey is said by many now to be a false prophet.

 Why not show me the pre trip rapture in the bible,Dave you cant do it because it is not there. Prove me wrong.


   http://www.heisnear.com/FalseProphecyTeachersToday.html

    ~TW~

[~TW~]

Dave i am assuming you are pre-mill sorry if you are not.I hope you you are not with the wacky left behind lot.

           ~TW~

[2Corrie]

If you are basing your views of pre-mil on Late Great Planet Earth, then 

Better to base views on the scripture than on pop fiction

[~TW~]

If you are basing your views of pre-mil on Late Great Planet Earth, then 

Better to base views on the scripture than on pop fiction

Many people do base this view on crackpot Americans,all you have to do is show me the rapture where Christ returns invisibly takes his church and comes back 7 years later.So I wait. 

  ~TW~