Author Topic: Revelation 20 the 1000 years  (Read 55399 times)

Spud

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #200 on: August 09, 2015, 02:22:50 PM »
A message for Dave,

Thanks for your reply, regarding in particular, Luke's version of the Olivet discourse. I get very bogged down when discussing this sometimes, so I'll quickly make a point about that particular passage then go back and re-read your post, and hopefully answer it more later.

Luke adds a phrase about the roaring and tossing of the sea, which makes men perplexed and faint from terror. You say this demands a literal interpretation; maybe, but a quick google for me located a similar verse - Isaiah 5:30, in which the roar of an army is clearly in view when talking about the roaring of the sea. So I would be inclined to think Jesus was being cryptic when he used that imagery, and thinking of war in some sense. I remain open to a future, literal fulfilment though.

By the way, when I mentioned the sun being darkened in my previous post, I am aware that I didn't interpret that very exactly, but made a more general statement about the extinction of governmental powers.

I just wanted to make that observation about your post, have a good day and I hope all is well down there  :)

Edit: Another reference to the roar of the sea:

"Oh, the raging of many nations–they rage like the raging sea! Oh, the uproar of the peoples–they roar like the roaring of great waters!" Isaiah 17:12
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 05:56:36 PM by Spud »

DaveM

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #201 on: August 09, 2015, 04:09:23 PM »
PS in answer to your question, I would say that it is the Medes and Persians.
Hi Spud,

To get back to Isaiah 13:3 and the identity of ‘my consecrated ones, my mighty men my proudly exulting ones’ whom the Lord has Himself commanded and summoned to execute His anger.

My preferred view is that Isaiah actually had the Assyrian army in mind here.  This is a complex issue and I do not have all the historical facts readily available at my fingertips but one or two comments in support.

The Assyrians were the dominant power in Isaiah’s day.  During his lifetime they had taken the northern kingdom into exile in 722BC and had also besieged Jerusalem ~700BC during the reign of Hezekiah.  But Jerusalem was miraculously delivered in accordance with the word given by the Lord to Isaiah.

Babylon at that time was still in Chaldean hands and even then was marked as a centre of occult and evil practices which were an abomination to the Lord.  Also the Assyrians regarded Babylon as territory which belonged to them.  In 698BC Babylon finally fell to the Assyrians and the city was sacked with much loss of and destruction.  I think this was the initial event in the total fulfilment of the prophecy.  Interesting that Babylon was subsequently rebuilt by Sennacherib’s son, while it was under Nebuchadnezzar that it reached its full glory. 

We do, of course find the Medes mentioned in verse 17 and there are two possible ways of understanding this.  First Isaiah says that the Lord is going to stir up the Medes against them.  By ‘them’ Isaiah might well mean the Assyrians themselves who certainly deserved God’s wrath for their treatment and attacks on His people.  And indeed the Assyrian empire was finally destroyed by a Chaldean-Median coalition in 612–609 BC, an event which paved the way for the rise of the Chaldeans.

Second it is also possible that Isaiah had the Chaldeans in mind and their conquest of Babylon in 539 BC when he talks of the ‘them’. In which event this is another of those prophecies where we need to recognise a two stages fulfilment, the first covering verses 1-16 and the second verses 17-22.  I have no strong preference either way.

My main problem with associating the whole of Isaiah 13 solely with the Medes and Persians is that the city structure of Babylon was left virtually untouched by the fall to the Medes and Persians, in contrast to the damage wrought by the Assyrians.  True there would have been considerable looting and pillaging but there was little damage to the essential structure of the city.  As you are probably aware Babylon fell virtually without a ‘shot being fired’ and the Medes simply moved in and established it as their headquarters.

It is worth noting that in verses 17-19 the prophesied events are directly attributed to the Medes as illustrated by terms such as, ‘who will not value silver’ or ‘their bows will mow down’ or again ‘they will have no compassion’.  But from verse 19 on when we starting moving into the final demise of Babylon there is no direct reference to the Medes.  Babylon simply becomes a wasteland. 

Which is exactly what happened.  After the Medes and Persians the Greeks moved in.  Indeed Alexander the Great died there.  After his death the Seleucid kings made it their headquarters.  It was only during this period that the Seleucid kings eventually built a new capital, Seleucia, to the east on the Tigris River resulting in a migration of the population away from Babylon.  And given the scarcity of building materials in the desert, many of the structures of Babylon were broken down and the cut stone etc. transported to Seleucia for use there.  And over time Babylon decayed to a ruin, uninhabited, a place where only desert creatures were to be found, the owl and the ostrich, goats, hyenas and jackals, exactly as prophesied.  And to date it has never been rebuilt.  Altogether a marvellous prophecy fulfilled in history.   

Enjoy your day,  Dave

DaveM

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #202 on: August 09, 2015, 07:07:34 PM »

 Dave a slight change first with a pre-mill view you are sadly living in cloud cuckoo land many years ago,many many years ago I had a pre mill pastor.I did not know what the terms were pre-post-non meant nothing to me.

I had no idea of any of these terms,so he gives me a book read this he says Hal Lindsey Late Great Planet Earth this will kick off soon he says,also we have sent all the parts to Israel to build the new temple.All that was over 30 years ago Hal Lindsey is said by many now to be a false prophet.

 Why not show me the pre trip rapture in the bible,Dave you cant do it because it is not there. Prove me wrong.

    ~TW~
For the record I would term myself a non-dogmatic premillennialist.  Premil because in my view I find this to be the approach which can comfortably accommodate the greatest number of Scripture passages with the least number of uncomfortable bedfellows.   Non-dogmatic because as long as there are some residual Scriptures which do not seem to make a good fit with the premil view I need to continue to seek answers and to remain open and willing to modify my views if necessary and to certainly recognise the need not to insist that I have the only correct view.

For me the amil view probably accommodates best those Scriptures which do not comfortably fit into the premil approach.  But then I find a much larger proportion of uncomfortable bedfellows in the amil position.

I really struggle with the post-mil position.

I suspect that when we are all gathered in glory and look back at what actually happened it will not be so much an issue of who was right and who was wrong, but rather one of who was least wrong.  And somehow I very much doubt it will seem all that important,  We will probably simply have a good laugh about it over a celestial beer or something and then go back to more important activities such as being ‘lost in wonder, love and praise’ to quote that great Wesley hymn.

I think it was David Pawson who once said, ‘Are you a-mil, pre-mil or post-mil?  That is a-pre-post-erous question’!

But this debate is currently concerned with Isaiah 13 and I have no wish to get it side tracked into a general debate on millennial controversies.   

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #203 on: August 09, 2015, 07:20:50 PM »
A message for Dave,

Thanks for your reply, regarding in particular, Luke's version of the Olivet discourse. I get very bogged down when discussing this sometimes, so I'll quickly make a point about that particular passage then go back and re-read your post, and hopefully answer it more later.

Luke adds a phrase about the roaring and tossing of the sea, which makes men perplexed and faint from terror. You say this demands a literal interpretation; maybe, but a quick google for me located a similar verse - Isaiah 5:30, in which the roar of an army is clearly in view when talking about the roaring of the sea. So I would be inclined to think Jesus was being cryptic when he used that imagery, and thinking of war in some sense. I remain open to a future, literal fulfilment though.

By the way, when I mentioned the sun being darkened in my previous post, I am aware that I didn't interpret that very exactly, but made a more general statement about the extinction of governmental powers.

I just wanted to make that observation about your post, have a good day and I hope all is well down there  :)

Edit: Another reference to the roar of the sea:

"Oh, the raging of many nations–they rage like the raging sea! Oh, the uproar of the peoples–they roar like the roaring of great waters!" Isaiah 17:12

 Hi Spud
 It seems Dave does not want to play ball,but when you read the bible allow the new to refer to the old it makes more sense for example.

 We have     6 After that I heard what sounded like the shout of a vast throng, like the boom of many pounding waves, and like the roar of terrific and mighty peals of thunder, exclaiming, Hallelujah (praise the Lord)! For now the Lord our God the Omnipotent (the All-Ruler) reigns!

7 Let us rejoice and shout for joy [exulting and triumphant]! Let us celebrate and ascribe to Him glory and honor, for the marriage of the Lamb [at last] has come, and His bride has prepared herself.

 Here the shouting of the people is likend to PEOPLE also we read this      21 Then I saw a new [a]sky (heaven) and a new earth, for the former sky and the former earth had passed away (vanished), and there no longer existed any sea.

Why is there no sea in the new heaven and earth  let us read on     3 Then I heard a mighty voice from the throne and I perceived its distinct words, saying, See! The abode of God is with men, and He will live (encamp, tent) among them; and they shall be His people, and God shall personally be with them and be their God.
4 God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither shall there be anguish (sorrow and mourning) nor grief nor pain any more, for the old conditions and the former order of things have passed away.

The answer is the anti-Christian nations are no more they are judged and gone the sea {people} were no more


 Here is another example of the sea=people      5 By fearful and glorious things [that terrify the wicked but make the godly sing praises] do You answer us in righteousness (rightness and justice), O God of our salvation, You Who are the confidence and hope of all the ends of the earth and of those far off on the seas;
6 Who by [Your] might have founded the mountains, being girded with power,
7 Who still the roaring of the seas, the roaring of their waves, and the tumult of the peoples,

Spud try not to get involved with the pre-left behind heretics.


~TW~
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 07:22:36 PM by ~TW~ »
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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #204 on: August 09, 2015, 07:26:36 PM »

 Dave a slight change first with a pre-mill view you are sadly living in cloud cuckoo land many years ago,many many years ago I had a pre mill pastor.I did not know what the terms were pre-post-non meant nothing to me.

I had no idea of any of these terms,so he gives me a book read this he says Hal Lindsey Late Great Planet Earth this will kick off soon he says,also we have sent all the parts to Israel to build the new temple.All that was over 30 years ago Hal Lindsey is said by many now to be a false prophet.

 Why not show me the pre trip rapture in the bible,Dave you cant do it because it is not there. Prove me wrong.

    ~TW~
For the record I would term myself a non-dogmatic premillennialist.  Premil because in my view I find this to be the approach which can comfortably accommodate the greatest number of Scripture passages with the least number of uncomfortable bedfellows.   Non-dogmatic because as long as there are some residual Scriptures which do not seem to make a good fit with the premil view I need to continue to seek answers and to remain open and willing to modify my views if necessary and to certainly recognise the need not to insist that I have the only correct view.

For me the amil view probably accommodates best those Scriptures which do not comfortably fit into the premil approach.  But then I find a much larger proportion of uncomfortable bedfellows in the amil position.

I really struggle with the post-mil position.

I suspect that when we are all gathered in glory and look back at what actually happened it will not be so much an issue of who was right and who was wrong, but rather one of who was least wrong.  And somehow I very much doubt it will seem all that important,  We will probably simply have a good laugh about it over a celestial beer or something and then go back to more important activities such as being ‘lost in wonder, love and praise’ to quote that great Wesley hymn.

I think it was David Pawson who once said, ‘Are you a-mil, pre-mil or post-mil?  That is a-pre-post-erous question’!

But this debate is currently concerned with Isaiah 13 and I have no wish to get it side tracked into a general debate on millennial controversies.   


OK Dave outline Isa 13 post your problems and I will look at them and it may make sense to you,but I go strictly with the bible.

~TW~
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SweetPea

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #205 on: August 09, 2015, 07:31:26 PM »
If you are basing your views of pre-mil on Late Great Planet Earth, then  :(

Better to base views on the scripture than on pop fiction

Many people do base this view on crackpot Americans,all you have to do is show me the rapture where Christ returns invisibly takes his church and comes back 7 years later.So I wait.  :)

  ~TW~

There was only ever two comings of Christ prophesied.... not three. 
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind ~ 2 Timothy 1:7

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #206 on: August 09, 2015, 07:34:18 PM »
If you are basing your views of pre-mil on Late Great Planet Earth, then  :(

Better to base views on the scripture than on pop fiction

Many people do base this view on crackpot Americans,all you have to do is show me the rapture where Christ returns invisibly takes his church and comes back 7 years later.So I wait.  :)

  ~TW~

There was only ever two comings of Christ prophesied.... not three.

Sweet Pea yes that is right you need to tell that to 2 Corrie.Dave I do not see any problems with Isaiah 13 it seems very straigtforward.

Take care Dave.

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #207 on: August 09, 2015, 07:41:15 PM »
Question from Dave---- Isaiah 13:3.  Who are ‘my consecrated ones, my mighty men my proudly exulting ones’ whom the Lord has Himself commanded and summoned to execute His anger?

Answer -----------The Medes and Persians.

 ~TW~
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DaveM

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #208 on: August 09, 2015, 07:43:56 PM »
A message for Dave,

Thanks for your reply, regarding in particular, Luke's version of the Olivet discourse. I get very bogged down when discussing this sometimes, so I'll quickly make a point about that particular passage then go back and re-read your post, and hopefully answer it more later.

Luke adds a phrase about the roaring and tossing of the sea, which makes men perplexed and faint from terror. You say this demands a literal interpretation; maybe, but a quick google for me located a similar verse - Isaiah 5:30, in which the roar of an army is clearly in view when talking about the roaring of the sea. So I would be inclined to think Jesus was being cryptic when he used that imagery, and thinking of war in some sense. I remain open to a future, literal fulfilment though.

By the way, when I mentioned the sun being darkened in my previous post, I am aware that I didn't interpret that very exactly, but made a more general statement about the extinction of governmental powers.

I just wanted to make that observation about your post, have a good day and I hope all is well down there  :)

Edit: Another reference to the roar of the sea:

"Oh, the raging of many nations–they rage like the raging sea! Oh, the uproar of the peoples–they roar like the roaring of great waters!" Isaiah 17:12
Hi Spud,

Thanks.  Some good Scriptural quotations there.  And I would agree that in all the above Isaiah is using imagery to highlight his warnings.  So in 5:30 it would be incorrect to postulate the literal roar of a lion or the literal raging of the sea.

Perhaps where we diverge in our approach is as follows.  In all the verses quoted above Isaiah qualifies his descriptions with phrase such as 'like the roaring of the sea' Similarly in 5:29 Isaiah says the noise of the Chaldean army is a roaring 'like a lioness....'.  So Isaiah makes it clear that he is using imagery or comparisons to press home his point and we need to interpret this in the symbolism that he uses.

However, in Luke 21:25 Jesus simply says that it will be the roaring of the sea and the waves that will cause men to faint from fear.  There is no suggestion in the text that Jesus is using the roaring of the sea to illustrate the nature of some other event.  And because we are given absolutely no indication that these words are intended to be understood in a symbolic way, my approach is that this is a plain statement which Jesus is making and we need to interpret it as such.

Bed time down south but enjoy the rest of your day.

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #209 on: August 09, 2015, 07:53:58 PM »
If Russia roared=sea and America roared=sea then this---------which makes men perplexed and faint from terror,would seem to make sense.

 Not hard to understand.

   ~TW~
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DaveM

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #210 on: August 10, 2015, 07:10:46 AM »
Question from Dave---- Isaiah 13:3.  Who are ‘my consecrated ones, my mighty men my proudly exulting ones’ whom the Lord has Himself commanded and summoned to execute His anger?

Answer -----------The Medes and Persians.

 ~TW~
That might well be correct and many ascribe to that view.  But the historical facts offer strong support for the Assyrians being more likely candidates whose actions against Babylon provide a better match to the prophecy than do the Medes and Persians.  See my post #202,

DaveM

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #211 on: August 10, 2015, 07:26:40 AM »
If Russia roared=sea and America roared=sea then this---------which makes men perplexed and faint from terror,would seem to make sense.

 Not hard to understand.

   ~TW~
The sight of huge tsunamis, or gaint waves created by other causes, heading towards the shores would have an equally terrifying effect.  This cannot be ruled out and is consistent with the plain statements of Jesus and the general tenor of the Olivet Discourse in places, which includes many natural disasters. 

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #212 on: August 10, 2015, 07:49:41 AM »
If Russia roared=sea and America roared=sea then this---------which makes men perplexed and faint from terror,would seem to make sense.

 Not hard to understand.

   ~TW~
The sight of huge tsunamis, or gaint waves created by other causes, heading towards the shores would have an equally terrifying effect.  This cannot be ruled out and is consistent with the plain statements of Jesus and the general tenor of the Olivet Discourse in places, which includes many natural disasters.

 Well in reply the sea representing people can be found in scripture, tsunamis are not likely to cause the end of the world and in general context sea representing terror by people fits the bill rather better in Matt 24 then a tsunamis.

Also you can ask the question .What destroyed the Temple in 70 ad a tsunami or people out of control and filled with murder.

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #213 on: August 10, 2015, 04:05:30 PM »
Dave you posted this------------------ Matthew 24:29.  In Matt 24:29 we read, ‘Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken’.  But Luke (21:25-26) adds an interesting additional phrase.  “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken   
----------------------------------------------------
If you apply sea to people/nations as it is{fact} in scripture,and apply sun/moon/stars as a picture {also shown in scripture} of De-Creation the world groaning as the verse 30 approaches--------30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].

This is it the last day the final trumpet.So no big mystery's here.

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2Corrie

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #214 on: August 10, 2015, 08:31:06 PM »
If you are basing your views of pre-mil on Late Great Planet Earth, then  :(

Better to base views on the scripture than on pop fiction

Many people do base this view on crackpot Americans,all you have to do is show me the rapture where Christ returns invisibly takes his church and comes back 7 years later.So I wait.  :)

  ~TW~

He doesn't come invisibly!

He comes on the clouds heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (from Mat. 24)

When does this happen? After the tribulation and before the Day of the Lord.  Methinks you have me confused with a pre-tribber.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #215 on: August 10, 2015, 08:54:38 PM »
How many times is our Lord supposed to return then?
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2Corrie

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #216 on: August 10, 2015, 08:58:34 PM »
How many times is our Lord supposed to return then?

Once. How long was His first coming in duration?
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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #217 on: August 10, 2015, 10:09:03 PM »
If you are basing your views of pre-mil on Late Great Planet Earth, then  :(

Better to base views on the scripture than on pop fiction

Many people do base this view on crackpot Americans,all you have to do is show me the rapture where Christ returns invisibly takes his church and comes back 7 years later.So I wait.  :)

  ~TW~

He doesn't come invisibly!

He comes on the clouds heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (from Mat. 24)

When does this happen? After the tribulation and before the Day of the Lord.  Methinks you have me confused with a pre-tribber.

 Glad to hear you are not a pre trib wacko,but they believe he returns invisibly.

~TW~
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ad_orientem

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #218 on: August 10, 2015, 10:30:22 PM »
How many times is our Lord supposed to return then?

Once. How long was His first coming in duration?

Good. Well, you got that right. Usually millenialists have Christ returning twice, thrice or gawd knows how many times.
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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #219 on: September 03, 2015, 04:43:52 AM »
You will know you are near the end when the Russians march down the hills of Jerusalem.
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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #220 on: September 03, 2015, 12:00:20 PM »
You will know you are near the end when the Russians march down the hills of Jerusalem.

Moderator: quoted content removed.

Oh so you pick and choose what happens in the last times..
Wait and see...

I don't remember the scriptures ever referring to the Russians. It's more likely that we will know the end is near when the faithless Jews, that is those who never converted to Christ, commit their final act of apostasy by building a new temple in Jerusalem (no doubt aided by a large number of Evangelicals).
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 01:15:21 PM by Gordon »
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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #221 on: September 07, 2015, 10:42:22 PM »
You will know you are near the end when the Russians march down the hills of Jerusalem.

Moderator: quoted content removed.

Oh so you pick and choose what happens in the last times..
Wait and see...

I don't remember the scriptures ever referring to the Russians. It's more likely that we will know the end is near when the faithless Jews, that is those who never converted to Christ, commit their final act of apostasy by building a new temple in Jerusalem (no doubt aided by a large number of Evangelicals).

 AO sad to say they do read this into scripture,{Russians}when challenged on it they vanish.  :)

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Spud

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #222 on: September 11, 2015, 09:44:28 PM »
I don't remember the scriptures ever referring to the Russians. It's more likely that we will know the end is near when the faithless Jews, that is those who never converted to Christ, commit their final act of apostasy by building a new temple in Jerusalem (no doubt aided by a large number of Evangelicals).

Is that in the Bible??

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Re: Revelation 20 the 1000 years
« Reply #223 on: September 14, 2015, 08:54:43 AM »
I don't remember the scriptures ever referring to the Russians. It's more likely that we will know the end is near when the faithless Jews, that is those who never converted to Christ, commit their final act of apostasy by building a new temple in Jerusalem (no doubt aided by a large number of Evangelicals).

Is that in the Bible??

Spud it is what people read into it and can easily be disproved.You know what a cowboy builder is,well we have now, a lot of cowboy christians small c.

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