Author Topic: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?  (Read 83084 times)

Hope

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #100 on: June 15, 2015, 12:21:26 PM »
So a Muslim is taught what it is like to be a Christian and to find the things the two faiths share so they are more resistant to being poisoned later on in life by radicals.
That shouldn't take long, Rose.  The only thing I can think of that Muslims and Christians share a belief in is the concept of a God.  The God they believe in is very different for each faith.   ;)
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Shaker

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #101 on: June 15, 2015, 12:51:42 PM »
Doesn't 'Prayer for the Day,' broadcast at 05:43 every morning, fulfill the remit for a specifically and explicitly religious item? That being the case, just as the good Prof. says, make 'Thought for the Day' live up to its actual and not assumed title.

ETA: Mention of RTftD gives me the chance to post this:

http://www.platitudes.org.uk/platblog/index.php?m=06&y=15&d=03&entry=entry150615-074927
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 01:01:26 PM by Shaker »
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Shaker

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #102 on: June 15, 2015, 01:03:29 PM »
So what are you looking for?
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Shaker

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #103 on: June 15, 2015, 01:10:49 PM »
And inspirational thoughts can only come from the religious? Why, as the Prof. asked, isn't it then called 'Religious Thought for the Day'? It isn't.

Plenty of people don't like it as it is.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #104 on: June 15, 2015, 01:18:13 PM »
So what are you looking for?

Different inspirational thoughts on life from a variety of basically religious viewpoints.

I like hearing about lines of Jewish thought or what Guru Nanak taught about aspects of life and the news

Three minutes is just enough to be interesting without being preachy.

I like it as it is.

 ;D
Why are you so resistant to hearing from an even greater diversity of voices. If you value listening to someone who gives a Jewish or Sikh perspective on the issues of the day, why not a humanist or someone with another non religious moral philosophy.

Aruntraveller

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #105 on: June 15, 2015, 01:21:40 PM »
The problem with calling it "religious thought for today" is it is to heavy a term for what is actually a very light three minutes.

Is it always light?

I recall some rather strong thoughts for the day.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #106 on: June 15, 2015, 01:24:09 PM »
The problem with calling it "religious thought for today" is it is to heavy a term for what is actually a very light three minutes.

So it doesn't need the 'interesting depths' that you think can only be provided by the religious?



Aruntraveller

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #107 on: June 15, 2015, 01:34:27 PM »
Quote
It works as a very short programme because the speakers have a context which they can draw on, which is partially familiar to the target audience.



I don't quite understand why that excludes people of no faith.  ???
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Nearly Sane

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #108 on: June 15, 2015, 02:06:40 PM »
The problem with calling it "religious thought for today" is it is to heavy a term for what is actually a very light three minutes.

So it doesn't need the 'interesting depths' that you think can only be provided by the religious?

Yes, it needs the religious context while remaining fairly light.

Because you think religious people have interesting depths that the rest of us don't, but of course you are all for equality, hmmmm.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 02:26:14 PM by Nearly Sane »

Hope

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #109 on: June 15, 2015, 02:25:05 PM »
https://www.tes.co.uk/teaching-resource/comparison-of-islam-and-christianity-6211517

There is a teachers resource attached to that which if you click on it outlines some of the similarities and differences.

There are quite a few things to share if you look.
The are no similarities listed in the teachers' resource material, Rose.  It is even headed

Quote
Guidelines for teachers on the worksheet:

What do Muslims believe?
What do Christians believe?
Basic differences between Muslim and Christian beliefs
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Hope

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #110 on: June 15, 2015, 02:29:02 PM »
Different inspirational thoughts on life from a variety of basically religious viewpoints.
I've heard TftD quite often and there are regularly 'Thoughts' that have little or no religious or spiritual content within them.  Are people suggesting that the only people who can legitimately give such thoughts are non-religious people?  Surely its the content, not the speaker, that matters?
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #111 on: June 15, 2015, 02:29:59 PM »
Because there are other more suitable places for them to expound their POV.
Where - I'm not aware of any other place where non religious people are able to discuss issues of the day from a moral perspective which, presumably (given your desire for TFTD to remain exclusively for religious people) is only for non religious people. If you know of such a programme, do please tell us.

Thought for today caters for a specific audience, (not necessarily believers of a particular faith), but of people that like to hear about different religions in the context of modern day life.
I'd beg to differ - TFTD doesn't have a specific audience at all, given that it is a tiny slot within the Today programme and although broadly at the same time each morning can differ in start time by longer than its entire length. It's audience are people tuned in to the Today programme who will include a mix of religious and non religious people who I would expect reflects the UK demographic pretty closely.

Unfortunately you assume that someone who is religious cannot be a humanist, they can.
No I am not assuming that - but how can you justify the current position where a religious humanist could get a slot on TFTD but a non religious humanist would be banned.

I'm not really interested in some random person trying to explain their whole non religious moral philosophy in just  the three minutes they have, remember the faith/ religion of the person sets the POV in a context that a non religious person doesn't have.

It works as a very short programme because the speakers have a context which they can draw on, which is partially familiar to the target audience.
Why would the contributors be 'random' - TFTD has always had regular contributors and all the change would do is start to include interesting and challenging regular contributors who aren't religious but have something interesting to add in the tradition of TFTD.

I disagree on context, non religious people may have just as much context as religious people - the 'golden rule' is just about the broadest moral compass we have and perhaps the group that espouses that most strongly are humanists, including non religious humanists.

And given that the target audience is listeners to the Today programme (who are likely to be about 50% religious, nominally; 50% non religious) why would this audience be particularly familiar with (for example) a Sikh tradition view, and yet not with a broadly secular humanist view. I'd argue that the latter would be much more familiar in context to a much greater proportion of the target audience than the former.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #112 on: June 15, 2015, 02:32:52 PM »
Different inspirational thoughts on life from a variety of basically religious viewpoints.
I've heard TftD quite often and there are regularly 'Thoughts' that have little or no religious or spiritual content within them.  Are people suggesting that the only people who can legitimately give such thoughts are non-religious people?  Surely its the content, not the speaker, that matters?
No I am certainly not saying that only non religious people can provide thought which are largely non religious.

But that, in fact, focusses on the non-sense of the current situation - namely that a religious person is allowed to spend three minutes covering a topic or issue without religious content, but a non religious person is banned from doing the same.

So the issue isn't whether 'the only people who can legitimately give such thoughts are non-religious people' but why only religious people are allowed to, which is the current situation.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #113 on: June 15, 2015, 02:33:06 PM »
The problem with calling it "religious thought for today" is it is to heavy a term for what is actually a very light three minutes.

So it doesn't need the 'interesting depths' that you think can only be provided by the religious?



Yes, it needs the religious context while remaining fairly light.

Because you think religious people have interesting depths that the rest of us don't, but of course you are all for equality...


Not surprisingly, the atheists on here seem to listen to anything connected with religion, plus spending huge amounts of time on here  -  as I've so often said, "OBSESSIVE."
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 02:39:21 PM by BashfulAnthony »
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #114 on: June 15, 2015, 02:33:56 PM »
I've heard TftD quite often and there are regularly 'Thoughts' that have little or no religious or spiritual content within them.  Are people suggesting that the only people who can legitimately give such thoughts are non-religious people?  Surely its the content, not the speaker, that matters?

This is so wide of the mark that I can't see that it can be anything but a conscious and wilful misrepresentation.

What fair-minded people want is for a programme entitled 'Thought for the Day' to live up to its title and present a range of interesting and thought-provoking points from a range of contributors be they religious or non-religious. I would say that that covers everybody, pretty much.

What the BBC and evidently some listeners such as Rose want is for it to be open only to religious contributors.

It's not difficult.

If it's the content matters, why isn't RTftD open to non-religious contributors?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 02:36:51 PM by Shaker »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #115 on: June 15, 2015, 02:36:58 PM »
Different inspirational thoughts on life from a variety of basically religious viewpoints.
I've heard TftD quite often and there are regularly 'Thoughts' that have little or no religious or spiritual content within them.  Are people suggesting that the only people who can legitimately give such thoughts are non-religious people?  Surely its the content, not the speaker, that matters?

No, no one has suggested anything like that on here, only the opposite has been suggested. Have you just not read anything and made this up? Or did you read the stuff and not understand any of it? Or are you lying?

Hope

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #116 on: June 15, 2015, 02:37:55 PM »
This is so wide of the mark that I can't see that it can be anything but a conscious and wilful misrepresentation.
Not sure how it can be a misrepresentation of the various types of TftD's I've heard over the years.  I've heard Tftd's based around sports events, political events, social events - as well as ones based around Biblical, Qu'ranic, Bhavad Gita-ic and other religious ideas.
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Shaker

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #117 on: June 15, 2015, 02:39:31 PM »
This is so wide of the mark that I can't see that it can be anything but a conscious and wilful misrepresentation.
Not sure how it can be a misrepresentation of the various types of TftD's I've heard over the years.  I've heard Tftd's based around sports events, political events, social events - as well as ones based around Biblical, Qu'ranic, Bhavad Gita-ic and other religious ideas.
... and every single one of those will have come from an adherent of/representative of the main religious belief systems.

The misrepresentation was of the argument that people here such as Professor Davey and myself are making, not the one that exists only in your head.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 02:41:24 PM by Shaker »
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Hope

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #118 on: June 15, 2015, 02:40:43 PM »
No, no one has suggested anything like that on here, only the opposite has been suggested. Have you just not read anything and made this up? Or did you read the stuff and not understand any of it? Or are you lying?
Well, what I don't understand is why it is felt that 1) all TftD's are actually of a religious nature - as I've pointed out, I've heard enough over the years that weren't, and 2) why some people seem to be implying that those who have a religious background can't be 'trusted' to make non-religious thoughts - which, by my experience, at least - they do every now and again. 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 02:46:14 PM by Hope »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #119 on: June 15, 2015, 02:42:26 PM »
 
The problem with calling it "religious thought for today" is it is to heavy a term for what is actually a very light three minutes.

So it doesn't need the 'interesting depths' that you think can only be provided by the religious?



Yes, it needs the religious context while remaining fairly light.

Because you think religious people have interesting depths that the rest of us don't, but of course you are all for equality...


Not surprisingly, the batheists on here seem to listen to anything connected with t=religion, plus spending huge amoub=nts of time on here  -  as I've so often said, "OBSESSIVE."

The problem with the witticism attempted here is that the combination of bathos and atheists, also applies to bathos and theists. Worse it seems to have made the poster so excited that their ability to edit their post sensibly has disappeared.

Aruntraveller

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #120 on: June 15, 2015, 02:43:40 PM »
The problem with calling it "religious thought for today" is it is to heavy a term for what is actually a very light three minutes.

So it doesn't need the 'interesting depths' that you think can only be provided by the religious?



Yes, it needs the religious context while remaining fairly light.

Because you think religious people have interesting depths that the rest of us don't, but of course you are all for equality...


Not surprisingly, the atheists on here seem to listen to anything connected with religion, plus spending huge amounts of time on here  -  as I've so often said, "OBSESSIVE."

It is a Religion & Ethics Board open to all regardless of their religion or lack of.

Can we just agree that we are all obsessive on here as we all spend time on this board. Then leave the gratuitous insults at the door.

After all if the obsessives weren't here you'd be obsessing all on your lonesome.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #121 on: June 15, 2015, 02:43:48 PM »
The problem with calling it "religious thought for today" is it is to heavy a term for what is actually a very light three minutes.

So it doesn't need the 'interesting depths' that you think can only be provided by the religious?



Yes, it needs the religious context while remaining fairly light.

Because you think religious people have interesting depths that the rest of us don't, but of course you are all for equality...


Not surprisingly, the batheists on here seem to listen to anything connected with t=religion, plus spending huge amoub=nts of time on here  -  as I've so often said, "OBSESSIVE."

The problem with the witticism attempted here is that the combination of bathos and atheists, also applies to bathos and theists. Worse it seems to have made the poster so excited that their ability to edit their post sensibly has disappeared.

Please note the corrections above; made before you posted.  Thank you.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #122 on: June 15, 2015, 02:44:37 PM »
No, no one has suggested anything like that on here, only the opposite has been suggested. Have you just not read anything and made this up? Or did you read the stuff and not understand any of it? Or are you lying?
Well, what I don't understand is why it is felt that 1) all TftD's are actually of a religious nature - as I've pointed out, I've heard enough over the years that weren't, and 2) why some people seem to be implying that those who have a religious background can't the trusted to make non-religious thoughts - which, by my experience, at least - they do every now and again.

No one who is not religious is allowed to make them.
Please read and repeat reading that sentence until you start making sense.



Shaker

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #123 on: June 15, 2015, 02:44:52 PM »
The problem with the witticism attempted here is that the combination of bathos and atheists ...

Is that what it was? I thought it was just more sloppy typing  ;)

ETA: It was  ::)
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Hope

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #124 on: June 15, 2015, 02:45:22 PM »
... and every single one of those will have come from an adherent of/representative of the main religious belief systems.
Again, not strictly true, Shaker - unless you are classifying Jedi-ism as a 'main religious belief system'.  I heard a TftD by a Jedi-ist some months back.  Furthermore, I seem to remember that Radio 4 ran a series of TftD's (albeit later in the evening, iirc) that were specifically not exclusively religious in nature or speaker.  Seem to remember that Clare Balding advertised it on her Sunday morning programme on Radio 2.
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