What is the problem religionists have with secularism?

[ippy]

Very Important article on astrology by the world's finest.

http://www.high50.com/life/psychic-psmith-i-knew-i-was-right

Important and astrology in the same sentence and you're a paganist as well Rhi?

ippy

Did you actually follow the link?

Yes again and what else?

ippy

Yes and what's the name of that title music to the Laurel and hardy films?

ippy

So you got that it's a spoof then?

Yes I did and what else would it be.

This isn't a joke it's true there's a British newspaper titled "The Psychic News", I assure you I haven't made it up.

Surly there's no need to buy it? How do they manage to stay in business? Why do they need a paper?

ippy

[ippy]

Here is an interesting piece about how someone else who is  religious sees it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11335174/Charlie-Hebdo-secularism-is-not-the-solution-but-the-problem.html

I'm afraid I find all this talk of "the divine" quite meaningless. It is an idea ancient people dreamed up, but has no place in a modern, enlightened world.

I don't agree mainly because although technology and knowledge has increased the basic human being is very much the same.

People nowadays are no different to those ancient people, who also thought they lived in an enlightened age too.

Most, in fact all tribes they have discovered in the last few hundred years all had a religious belief of some sort which indicates to me anyway, that it is something that is deep in our being.

Take away our electric lights and our technology and I wonder how long or how many generations before it popped up again even if the original people were atheist.

I think the sense of divine, and all the rest of it is to much a part of us to be just cast off.

Astrology is still going strong, despite our more "enlightened times"

I think it is more enlightened to accept that aspect of human nature is always going to be with us, no matter how many new gadgets we have, or how much science we learn.

I suppose you could also argue our sense of the divine is evolving with us.

Astrology, how come identical twins don't live/have identical lives?

The above tells you all anyone needs to know about astrology.

ippy

Do you know any twins Ippy?

Most of the ones I have met felt they were connected in some way and often made the same choices naturally.

Not that, that has anything to do with astrology, but I expect an astrologist would tell you twins can be born 10mins apart which can make a world of a difference.

"Not that, that has anything to do with astrology, but I expect an astrologist would tell you twins can be born 10mins apart which can make a world of a difference".

Mandy Rice Davies.

ippy

Mandy Rice Davies?

This Mandy Rice Davies?

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Mandy_Rice-Davies


That's a bit deep for me Ippy.

Was she a twin?
Or into astrology?

 

She is well known for her famous saying at the time of the Profumo scandal, it goes, "Well they would do wouldn't they", I'm surprised you weren't familiar this saying.

It's all on wikkie.

ippy 

[Rhiannon]

Very Important article on astrology by the world's finest.

http://www.high50.com/life/psychic-psmith-i-knew-i-was-right

Important and astrology in the same sentence and you're a paganist as well Rhi?

ippy

Did you actually follow the link?

Yes again and what else?

ippy

Yes and what's the name of that title music to the Laurel and hardy films?

ippy

So you got that it's a spoof then?

Yes I did and what else would it be.

This isn't a joke it's true there's a British newspaper titled "The Psychic News", I assure you I haven't made it up.

Surly there's no need to buy it? How do they manage to stay in business? Why do they need a paper?

ippy

So why take the piss then? What does a spoof on astrology have to do with the fact I'm a pagan?

[ippy]

Very Important article on astrology by the world's finest.

http://www.high50.com/life/psychic-psmith-i-knew-i-was-right

Important and astrology in the same sentence and you're a paganist as well Rhi?

ippy

Did you actually follow the link?

Yes again and what else?

ippy

Yes and what's the name of that title music to the Laurel and hardy films?

ippy

So you got that it's a spoof then?

Yes I did and what else would it be.

This isn't a joke it's true there's a British newspaper titled "The Psychic News", I assure you I haven't made it up.

Surly there's no need to buy it? How do they manage to stay in business? Why do they need a paper?

ippy

So why take the piss then? What does a spoof on astrology have to do with the fact I'm a pagan?

I consider Paganism Astrology, All Religions, tarot and Cargo Cultism etc etc are all on a par believing in any one of those is bad enough, two of them well; that's the way I see it, can't help it if you don't like it Rhi.

Psychic News have just phoned up to tell me what I'll be thinking of tomorrow, I didn't need to give them my number?

ippy 

[BashfulAnthony]

Very Important article on astrology by the world's finest.

http://www.high50.com/life/psychic-psmith-i-knew-i-was-right

Important and astrology in the same sentence and you're a paganist as well Rhi?

ippy

Did you actually follow the link?

Yes again and what else?

ippy

Yes and what's the name of that title music to the Laurel and hardy films?

ippy

So you got that it's a spoof then?

Yes I did and what else would it be.

This isn't a joke it's true there's a British newspaper titled "The Psychic News", I assure you I haven't made it up.

Surly there's no need to buy it? How do they manage to stay in business? Why do they need a paper?

ippy

So why take the piss then? What does a spoof on astrology have to do with the fact I'm a pagan?

I consider Paganism Astrology, All Religions, tarot and Cargo Cultism etc etc are all on a par believing in any one of those is bad enough, two of them well; that's the way I see it, can't help it if you don't like it Rhi.

Psychic News have just phoned up to tell me what I'll be thinking of tomorrow, I didn't need to give them my number?

ippy

Psychic News have just contacted me, too,  to tell me what you are going to post tomorrow.  But I already knew that:  everybody does!   

[Rhiannon]

So because I link to a site spoofing astrology you assume I believe in it because I'm a pagan, Ippy. You then go off onto Psychic News, a publication for psychics and those interested in it, like it is relevant to me.

Two of what, Ippy? Do you have even the slightest clue what I believe? Oh no, because when I invited you over to the pagan board to discuss it you just sneered. So don't pretend you have the faintest idea what paganism is, because you don't have the first idea.

[Hope]

I consider Paganism Astrology, All Religions, tarot and Cargo Cultism etc etc are all on a par believing in any one of those is bad enough, two of them well; that's the way I see it, can't help it if you don't like it Rhi.

ippy, unfortunately for you, it needs just as much 'belief' to accept the ideas that science put before us as it does to accept those that religions put before us; so if you insist on pooh-poohing the one, you might as well pooh-pooh the other.

[ippy]

So because I link to a site spoofing astrology you assume I believe in it because I'm a pagan, Ippy. You then go off onto Psychic News, a publication for psychics and those interested in it, like it is relevant to me.

Two of what, Ippy? Do you have even the slightest clue what I believe? Oh no, because when I invited you over to the pagan board to discuss it you just sneered. So don't pretend you have the faintest idea what paganism is, because you don't have the first idea.

As I said.

ippy 

[ippy]

I consider Paganism Astrology, All Religions, tarot and Cargo Cultism etc etc are all on a par believing in any one of those is bad enough, two of them well; that's the way I see it, can't help it if you don't like it Rhi.

ippy, unfortunately for you, it needs just as much 'belief' to accept the ideas that science put before us as it does to accept those that religions put before us; so if you insist on pooh-poohing the one, you might as well pooh-pooh the other.

I did think that was what I expressed, they are all a bit out of the corner of the mouth, "oh yes of course" thinking, hoping and trying to make sure you don't end up with an axe in the head.

Oh by the way I note you're still very mixed up with this belief and science thing of yours.

ippy

[ippy]

Very Important article on astrology by the world's finest.

http://www.high50.com/life/psychic-psmith-i-knew-i-was-right

Important and astrology in the same sentence and you're a paganist as well Rhi?

ippy

Did you actually follow the link?

Yes again and what else?

ippy

Yes and what's the name of that title music to the Laurel and hardy films?

ippy

So you got that it's a spoof then?

Yes I did and what else would it be.

This isn't a joke it's true there's a British newspaper titled "The Psychic News", I assure you I haven't made it up.

Surly there's no need to buy it? How do they manage to stay in business? Why do they need a paper?

ippy

So why take the piss then? What does a spoof on astrology have to do with the fact I'm a pagan?

I consider Paganism Astrology, All Religions, tarot and Cargo Cultism etc etc are all on a par believing in any one of those is bad enough, two of them well; that's the way I see it, can't help it if you don't like it Rhi.

Psychic News have just phoned up to tell me what I'll be thinking of tomorrow, I didn't need to give them my number?

ippy

Psychic News have just contacted me, too,  to tell me what you are going to post tomorrow.  But I already knew that:  everybody does!   

I knew you'd say that, (this has got to stop BA).

ippy

[ippy]

Back to the OP I'm surprised Rose doesn't understand secularism, not so with Woo he's just not receiving, like the op title:

What is the problem religionists have with secularism?

The only thing it must be is the determination to retain all of their religious privileges, on those grounds secularism is seen by religionists as a threat.

ippy

[Shaker]

ippy, unfortunately for you, it needs just as much 'belief' to accept the ideas that science put before us as it does to accept those that religions put before us

When can we expect to see some back-up for that assertion?

[Hope]

ippy, unfortunately for you, it needs just as much 'belief' to accept the ideas that science put before us as it does to accept those that religions put before us

When can we expect to see some back-up for that assertion?

Probably at about the same time that we can expect to see evidence that the assertion is wrong.  After all, almost all of science, especially a lot of modern science, consists of ideas about the universe and matter that we can only surmise by observing events and believing that this event is in response to that one.  Science isn't as objective a discipline as many would like to believe.

[Shaker]

ippy, unfortunately for you, it needs just as much 'belief' to accept the ideas that science put before us as it does to accept those that religions put before us

When can we expect to see some back-up for that assertion?

Probably at about the same time that we can expect to see evidence to the contrary.

Oh brilliant - argument from or appeal to ignorance/negative proof fallacy. If there was such a thing as Hope bingo (as well as Vlad bingo) that would have been 500 points.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Secularism wants to protect your right to hold and practice any religious belief you wish to take up;   

How does it propose to do this?
How is it doing this at the moment?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Here is an interesting piece about how someone else who is  religious sees it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11335174/Charlie-Hebdo-secularism-is-not-the-solution-but-the-problem.html

A timely article which hopefully will move this debate on and inform.

You never will get secularism Woo, best find another thread where you might at least understand the subject.

ippy

I don't get ''Ippy secularism'' which states both the desire for the elimination of religion and simultaneously takes credit for the survival of same.

[ProfessorDavey]

Secularism wants to protect your right to hold and practice any religious belief you wish to take up;   

How does it propose to do this?
How is it doing this at the moment?

By guaranteeing freedom of religion, and freedom from religion.

And by ensuring that people don't suffer discrimination on the basis of their religion or lack thereof, nor are they afforded special privileges on the basis of their religion or lack thereof.

Simples.

How is it doing this at the moment - well in the UK, reasonably well, but there remain certain obstacle to those goals, mainly situations where people with a particular religion are afforded special privileges not afforded to others who do not hold that religion. And if you turn it on its head, that is in fact discrimination against those who  do not hold that religion.

[ProfessorDavey]

Here is an interesting piece about how someone else who is  religious sees it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11335174/Charlie-Hebdo-secularism-is-not-the-solution-but-the-problem.html

A timely article which hopefully will move this debate on and inform.

You never will get secularism Woo, best find another thread where you might at least understand the subject.

ippy

I don't get ''Ippy secularism'' which states both the desire for the elimination of religion and simultaneously takes credit for the survival of same.

Then perhaps you need to thick a little harder.

Lets change the topic to freedom of speech rather than freedom of religion.

It is perfectly reasonable and consistent on the one hand to support, without reservation the right of freedom of speech, but on the other desire that racism is eliminated. What that would mean is that although you recognise the right of a racist to express their racist views, you hope that in time people progress to a point where racist view have died out (although if they still exist someone has the right to express those views)

[ippy]

Here is an interesting piece about how someone else who is  religious sees it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11335174/Charlie-Hebdo-secularism-is-not-the-solution-but-the-problem.html

A timely article which hopefully will move this debate on and inform.

You never will get secularism Woo, best find another thread where you might at least understand the subject.

ippy

I don't get ''Ippy secularism'' which states both the desire for the elimination of religion and simultaneously takes credit for the survival of same.

There you are Woo Proff D has explained it to you see if you can get it this time, that would go for you too Rose.

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Secularism wants to protect your right to hold and practice any religious belief you wish to take up;   

How does it propose to do this?
How is it doing this at the moment?

By guaranteeing freedom of religion, and freedom from religion.

And by ensuring that people don't suffer discrimination on the basis of their religion or lack thereof, nor are they afforded special privileges on the basis of their religion or lack thereof.

Simples.

How is it doing this at the moment - well in the UK, reasonably well, but there remain certain obstacle to those goals, mainly situations where people with a particular religion are afforded special privileges not afforded to others who do not hold that religion. And if you turn it on its head, that is in fact discrimination against those who  do not hold that religion.

Secularism is in no position to guarantee anything. It cannot guarantee that it will champion supporting religion in any sense.
Like religion, it can only come to some kind of compromise and to keep watching itself for signs of it's own potential excesses.

Once you realise this then the slogan freedom of religion and freedom from religion looks like what it is, contradictory with freedom from religion only possible through suppression and some kind of apartheid.

Where you are coming from, The notional secular state is the equivalent of a theocracy.
Your view is therefore sentimental since it assumes the slogan will happen automatically and that secularists are somehow automatically virtuous when in reality, like religion, Secularism must be constantly vigilant....against it's own dark potential.

[ippy]

ippy, unfortunately for you, it needs just as much 'belief' to accept the ideas that science put before us as it does to accept those that religions put before us

When can we expect to see some back-up for that assertion?

Probably at about the same time that we can expect to see evidence to the contrary.

Oh brilliant - argument from or appeal to ignorance/negative proof fallacy. If there was such a thing as Hope bingo (as well as Vlad bingo) that would have been 500 points.

I noticed this post to you Hope from Shaker he's got you sized up and you even think you have credible evidence that could support the stuff you believe too.

ippy

[Rhiannon]

Back to the OP I'm surprised Rose doesn't understand secularism, not so with Woo he's just not receiving, like the op title:

What is the problem religionists have with secularism?

The only thing it must be is the determination to retain all of their religious privileges, on those grounds secularism is seen by religionists as a threat.

ippy

I don't have any privileges.

The threat is the creeping narrow mindedness and mockery that people with a religion are increasingly coming under,  under the guise of secularism.

Your attitude to Rhiannon and astrology being a prime example.

It might have been better if Ippy had bothered noticing I'd linked to a piss-take rather than the lazy assumption that I was trying to convince him of something woo.

I don't mind paganism being dismissed as a load of, but only by people who actually know what it is.

[ippy]

Back to the OP I'm surprised Rose doesn't understand secularism, not so with Woo he's just not receiving, like the op title:

What is the problem religionists have with secularism?

The only thing it must be is the determination to retain all of their religious privileges, on those grounds secularism is seen by religionists as a threat.

ippy

I don't have any privileges.

The threat is the creeping narrow mindedness and mockery that people with a religion are increasingly coming under,  under the guise of secularism.

Your attitude to Rhiannon and astrology being a prime example.

Taking a view doesn't preclude people from being secular, or having distain for airy fairy ideas that have no supporting evidence.

ippy

[Rhiannon]

Am I allowed to have disdain for rudeness, Ippy?

[ProfessorDavey]

Secularism is in no position to guarantee anything. It cannot guarantee that it will champion supporting religion in any sense.
Like religion, it can only come to some kind of compromise and to keep watching itself for signs of it's own potential excesses.

Once you realise this then the slogan freedom of religion and freedom from religion looks like what it is, contradictory with freedom from religion only possible through suppression and some kind of apartheid.

Where you are coming from, The notional secular state is the equivalent of a theocracy.
Your view is therefore sentimental since it assumes the slogan will happen automatically and that secularists are somehow automatically virtuous when in reality, like religion, Secularism must be constantly vigilant....against it's own dark potential.

Oh yes of course you are right.

I forgot - look at all that appalling suppression of religion that goes on in those terrible secular countries like ...

France, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc etc

Religious people quivering with fear waiting for the boot against the door in every one of them.