Author Topic: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?  (Read 83068 times)

Harrowby Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5038
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #350 on: June 23, 2015, 08:24:43 AM »

Look up Judge Neuberger and his views on the need for a written Constitution, and find out how wrong you are.

As the article makes clear, it is Lord Neuberger's opinion that the UK does not have a written constitution. He acknowledges that others do not share his opinion.

The UK does have a written constitution, however it is not codified.
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #351 on: June 23, 2015, 08:46:43 AM »
Paganism very often refers to a country's indigenous religion by the way. It's kind of the opposite of imported.
Is that why so much European paganism is similar?  Is there any specifically 'British' form of paganism?
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #352 on: June 23, 2015, 09:07:08 AM »
Paganism very often refers to a country's indigenous religion by the way. It's kind of the opposite of imported.
Is that why so much European paganism is similar?  Is there any specifically 'British' form of paganism?

Christianity persecuted much of the indigenous British paganism out of existence, but it survived in pockets of folklore and the myths and stories that got written down. So Celtic paganism (as we can understand from folklore, tradition, place names and archaeology) had a different set of beliefs and culture from the Anglo-Saxon, which in turn was different from those parts of the country that were controlled by the Norsemen. Because of the Celtic influence in Brittany and the Anglo-Saxons in Northern Europe and of course the Scandinavians there are similarities, but further south and east and the indigenous religion is quite different. And of course something pre-dated even Celtic culture in Britain, although we only get glimpses of that, mostly through archaeology and features in our landscape.

So modern neopaganism is a mix of reconstruction based on what we know and personal experience that gets passed on to others. Even wiccans tend now to look to the past as well as to the stuff that spring from Gardner's imagination and weave their own tapestry of old and new.

I'm not sure why you think Christianity is exclusive in considering the 'whole of humanity'? What do you mean by that?

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #353 on: June 23, 2015, 12:53:46 PM »
I'm not sure why you think Christianity is exclusive in considering the 'whole of humanity'? What do you mean by that?
As as I am aware, no other faith was established as being for the whole of humanity.  After all, no other faith has God as its 'founder'.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17590
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #354 on: June 23, 2015, 12:59:52 PM »
I'm not sure why you think Christianity is exclusive in considering the 'whole of humanity'? What do you mean by that?
As as I am aware, no other faith was established as being for the whole of humanity.  After all, no other faith has God as its 'founder'.
I would have thought that plenty of religions have gone further than merely humanity (i.e humans) but also encompassed the natural world too. Worth noting of course that it would be unfair to expect ancient religions to take account of the world beyond that which they knew about, in the same way as judeo-christian religions at their inception were largely a product of time and place.

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #355 on: June 23, 2015, 01:09:59 PM »
I would have thought that plenty of religions have gone further than merely humanity (i.e humans) but also encompassed the natural world too. Worth noting of course that it would be unfair to expect ancient religions to take account of the world beyond that which they knew about, in the same way as judeo-christian religions at their inception were largely a product of time and place.
Well, Judeo-Christian thinking does go beyond the mere human - there are plenty of passaages instructing people to care for the natural world - but there is often a belief here (as indicated by your last sentence) that Christianity was originally merely a Jewish sect.  I was pointing out that, contrary to the writings of Geza Vermes and others like him, there is no indication in the Gospels or even the Old Testament, that the faith was for Jews alone.  The Jewish leaders seem to have arrogated the faith to the Jewish people, but it is clear that non-Jews were amongst the first believers in Christ.  In other words, whilst Christianity may have been a product of time and place (as everything is), it wasn't people-group specific at its outset.

Going back to the point about nature, both Christ and Paul make it clear that humanity is responsible for the well-being of the natural world.  In other words, nature isn't a separate entity; it is dependent upon humanity for its safety and protection (hence the use of the term 'dominion' in Genesis, rather than the term 'domination'.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 01:13:45 PM by Hope »
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17590
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #356 on: June 23, 2015, 01:25:54 PM »
I would have thought that plenty of religions have gone further than merely humanity (i.e humans) but also encompassed the natural world too. Worth noting of course that it would be unfair to expect ancient religions to take account of the world beyond that which they knew about, in the same way as judeo-christian religions at their inception were largely a product of time and place.
Well, Judeo-Christian thinking does go beyond the mere human - there are plenty of passaages instructing people to care for the natural world - but there is often a belief here (as indicated by your last sentence) that Christianity was originally merely a Jewish sect.  I was pointing out that, contrary to the writings of Geza Vermes and others like him, there is no indication in the Gospels or even the Old Testament, that the faith was for Jews alone.  The Jewish leaders seem to have arrogated the faith to the Jewish people, but it is clear that non-Jews were amongst the first believers in Christ.  In other words, whilst Christianity may have been a product of time and place (as everything is), it wasn't people-group specific at its outset.

Going back to the point about nature, both Christ and Paul make it clear that humanity is responsible for the well-being of the natural world.  In other words, nature isn't a separate entity; it is dependent upon humanity for its safety and protection (hence the use of the term 'dominion' in Genesis, rather than the term 'domination'.
Not really - right from the first pages of Genesis the rest of the world is created in a manner that is inherently secondary to humanity. So the judeo-christian tradition is fundamentally a religion based on humanity with everything else channeled via that conduit. Judeo-christianity sees the rest of the natural world as distinct from and somehow dependent on humanity, rather than being equal and integrated. You've comments on christ/paul makes my point rather well.

That, in my view, is much more restricted than, for example Buddhism, that is much clearly in seeing the human species and other living things as part of a more coherent whole. And indeed the concept of reincarnation and connectivity across different aspects of the natural world seems much more expansive that the narrow humanity-dominated view of judeo-christianity. You could perhaps argue the same for paganism, but I'll leave that for the pagans here.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #357 on: June 23, 2015, 01:27:18 PM »
I'm not sure why you think Christianity is exclusive in considering the 'whole of humanity'? What do you mean by that?
As as I am aware, no other faith was established as being for the whole of humanity.  After all, no other faith has God as its 'founder'.

Well, not exactly. Christianity was founded by quite a few people - Paul, the early church fathers, made popular by some Romans, and based on the writings that were supposedly based on the teachings of a man called Jesus. The evidence, as Rose has pointed out, is that if Jesus said what he said then it was directed to his own people - the Jewish population of the area around Galilee.

Paganism is for the whole of humanity because every people has their own indigenous beliefs, very often grown out of the local  landscape and natural world. Christianity may have a few teachings on 'looking after' nature; paganism generally has the created world as integral to its practice and a relationship with nature characterises many pagan paths. Of course some pagans haven't exactly been friendly - the Norse for example - but then neither have Christians.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #358 on: June 23, 2015, 01:47:05 PM »
I would have thought that plenty of religions have gone further than merely humanity (i.e humans) but also encompassed the natural world too. Worth noting of course that it would be unfair to expect ancient religions to take account of the world beyond that which they knew about, in the same way as judeo-christian religions at their inception were largely a product of time and place.
Well, Judeo-Christian thinking does go beyond the mere human - there are plenty of passaages instructing people to care for the natural world - but there is often a belief here (as indicated by your last sentence) that Christianity was originally merely a Jewish sect.  I was pointing out that, contrary to the writings of Geza Vermes and others like him, there is no indication in the Gospels or even the Old Testament, that the faith was for Jews alone.  The Jewish leaders seem to have arrogated the faith to the Jewish people, but it is clear that non-Jews were amongst the first believers in Christ.  In other words, whilst Christianity may have been a product of time and place (as everything is), it wasn't people-group specific at its outset.

Going back to the point about nature, both Christ and Paul make it clear that humanity is responsible for the well-being of the natural world.  In other words, nature isn't a separate entity; it is dependent upon humanity for its safety and protection (hence the use of the term 'dominion' in Genesis, rather than the term 'domination'.
Not really - right from the first pages of Genesis the rest of the world is created in a manner that is inherently secondary to humanity. So the judeo-christian tradition is fundamentally a religion based on humanity with everything else channeled via that conduit. Judeo-christianity sees the rest of the natural world as distinct from and somehow dependent on humanity, rather than being equal and integrated. You've comments on christ/paul makes my point rather well.

That, in my view, is much more restricted than, for example Buddhism, that is much clearly in seeing the human species and other living things as part of a more coherent whole. And indeed the concept of reincarnation and connectivity across different aspects of the natural world seems much more expansive that the narrow humanity-dominated view of judeo-christianity. You could perhaps argue the same for paganism, but I'll leave that for the pagans here.

Yes, Christians are taught that we are placed as stewards over the natural world. Pagans see the natural world as divinity or as expressions of that equal to human beings; many are pantheist, panentheist and/or animist. Not all pagans believe in reincarnation but I've yet to come across a path that doesn't have some kind of focus on cause and effect - if we misuse nature, we pay.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17590
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #359 on: June 23, 2015, 01:48:56 PM »
I'm not sure why you think Christianity is exclusive in considering the 'whole of humanity'? What do you mean by that?
As as I am aware, no other faith was established as being for the whole of humanity.  After all, no other faith has God as its 'founder'.

Well, not exactly. Christianity was founded by quite a few people - Paul, the early church fathers, made popular by some Romans, and based on the writings that were supposedly based on the teachings of a man called Jesus. The evidence, as Rose has pointed out, is that if Jesus said what he said then it was directed to his own people - the Jewish population of the area around Galilee.

Paganism is for the whole of humanity because every people has their own indigenous beliefs, very often grown out of the local  landscape and natural world. Christianity may have a few teachings on 'looking after' nature; paganism generally has the created world as integral to its practice and a relationship with nature characterises many pagan paths. Of course some pagans haven't exactly been friendly - the Norse for example - but then neither have Christians.
Thanks for that - somehow I thought my point about pagans answering for themselves would be ... well ... answered.

Actually rather than judeo-christianity being the most expansive of religions it seems to me to be one of the narrowest and most restrictive. Affectively focussed on the human species (with the rest of nature a bit of an afterthought for humans to look after and use) and also more narrowly restricted to time, place and people than many other religions. A religion that is based on relationship with nature is pretty well universal - it transcends time and place, albeit the details may be different depending on the local environment. That seems much more universally relevant than the key (unique) features of christianity which are effectively fulfilling jewish prophecy and trying to ensure that the human species is seen to be closer to the divine than anything else (strange that when created by ... well ... the human species).

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #360 on: June 23, 2015, 01:54:10 PM »
The BBC describes Paganism

"Almost 57,000 people in England and Wales identify themselves as Pagan, according to the 2011 census, making Paganism the largest non-mainstream religion. In addition there were nearly 18,000 Druids, Heathens and Wiccans - all groups which are identified as Pagan.

Paganism is best described as a group of religions and spiritual traditions based on a reverence for nature.

Like Hinduism, there is no single founder, scripture or religious philosophy. Most Pagans, however, believe in the divine character of the natural world and Paganism is often described as an "Earth religion".

"Paganism is a spiritual path to some, a religion to others, that helps people to reconnect with the natural world, their ancestors, and the Otherworlds of myth and folklore," said Damh the Bard, of the Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids (OBOD) - one of the UK's largest organised Pagan groups.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/0/20693321

Heathens don't always identify as a nature spirituality as they focus more on the deities, although relationship with the spirits of the land is important, and Wiccans don't always identify as pagan, but generally that's on the money.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #361 on: June 23, 2015, 02:01:18 PM »
For Rose - a bit of Damh the Bard.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=35yuhbx-BkE




Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #362 on: June 23, 2015, 02:59:42 PM »
Well, not exactly. Christianity was founded by quite a few people - Paul, the early church fathers, made popular by some Romans, and based on the writings that were supposedly based on the teachings of a man called Jesus. The evidence, as Rose has pointed out, is that if Jesus said what he said then it was directed to his own people - the Jewish population of the area around Galilee.
Wrong on both accounts, Rhi.  By the time Paul came on the scene, the Christian Church had already begun to spread around the Mediterranean and possibly further afield than that.  It was already established (though not in the sense that we understand the 'established church') as an entity.

As for "the evidence, as Rose has pointed out, ..."; if that was the case, why were the apostles willing to share the Gospel with non-Jews and to allow the church to spread out from Palestine?  More importantly, why had Jesus been willing to share his teaching with Samaritans, Romans and other non-Jews.  As far as I can make out from the documentation, the attempt to Judai-ify Christianity started some years after Jesus' death and resurrection and lasted for only a few years - it had certainly lost the argument well before both Peter and Paul died.

Quote
Paganism is for the whole of humanity because every people has their own indigenous beliefs, very often grown out of the local  landscape and natural world.
Precisely, Paganism is very much territorial; it grew out of the local landscape and was therefore only relevant to people who understood that landscape.  As such, there were and are a myriad of Pagan paths, which people are free to pick and choose from. 

Now, I don't know whether you would agree that beliefs like animism and shamanism belong within the Pagan 'fold' - I have read material written by folk who regard themselves as Pagans that this is the case: but from what I understand Paganism is very much a 'pick and choose what suits me' belief system - not that different, in fact, to Hinduism.

Quote
Christianity may have a few teachings on 'looking after' nature; paganism generally has the created world as integral to its practice and a relationship with nature characterises many pagan paths.
If you study the Old and New Testaments, the passages have nothing to do with any cursory 'looking after' nature as you seem to suggest; it is an integral aspect of real faith.

I would happily accept that, over the centuries, that aspect of the Christian faith (not sure about post-70 AD Judaism) had been subsumed to a large degree into wealth creation and abuse of the natural world - until, between them, Christians and non-Christians began to rediscover it in their different ways 100 to 150 years ago.

Not sure that the pagans who would no doubt have existed in, for instance, the Middle Ages were any better than their religious equivalents.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #363 on: June 23, 2015, 03:29:40 PM »
I don't think there is any doubt that Chrisyianity comes largely from the mind of Paul - the 'church' was undoubtedly Jewish in nature, although clearly it began to appeal to Gentiles early on. But even if we accept Jesus intended to found a worldwide faith, that doesn't make him God.

Will write more later - school play beckons.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #364 on: June 23, 2015, 05:11:35 PM »
His name is pronounced 'Dahv' but he's known as Dave the Bard in our house.  His weekly podcasts are worth a listen.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32505
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #365 on: June 23, 2015, 09:37:12 PM »

You have to be the far-and-away the mos pretentious know-all on this forum..


And you are the most obnoxious twat.  You descend to insult at the slightest provocation.  You have a serious problem with being shown you've made a mistake. 

Quote
Add that to your low-grade language

Says the man who prefers insult to proper argument.

Quote
and iignorant misunderstanding of what the Constitution is, and what is left is somebody who, calling an idiot would be an insult to all stupid people.

I know what the constitution is. It is written down.  Or are you going to claim that things like the Reform Act and the Acts of Union are not in writing?
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7520
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #366 on: June 23, 2015, 09:38:16 PM »

You have to be the far-and-away the mos pretentious know-all on this forum..


And you are the most obnoxious twat.  You descend to insult at the slightest provocation.  You have a serious problem with being shown you've made a mistake. 

Quote
Add that to your low-grade language

Says the man who prefers insult to proper argument.

Quote
and iignorant misunderstanding of what the Constitution is, and what is left is somebody who, calling an idiot would be an insult to all stupid people.

I know what the constitution is. It is written down.  Or are you going to claim that things like the Reform Act and the Acts of Union are not in writing?

Bye.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #367 on: July 13, 2015, 11:35:27 AM »
I note the idea/problem religionists have with some kind of perceived threat secularism poses to them, shows no signs of going away.

It's a bit like when you ask a politician a question about say money, the answer, more often than not, has nothing to do with the question asked. 

"What really is the problem religionists have with secularism"? After all it guarantees the religious their rights.

ippy

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #368 on: July 13, 2015, 12:58:34 PM »
I note the idea/problem religionists have with some kind of perceived threat secularism poses to them, shows no signs of going away.

It's a bit like when you ask a politician a question about say money, the answer, more often than not, has nothing to do with the question asked. 

"What really is the problem religionists have with secularism"? After all it guarantees the religious their rights.

ippy
Amazing, ippy, you have suddenly begun to use the term secularism in the more commonly accepted manner.  It's taken you some time, but better late than never.  Will you be able to keep it up, I wonder.   ;)
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #369 on: July 13, 2015, 02:42:38 PM »
I note the idea/problem religionists have with some kind of perceived threat secularism poses to them, shows no signs of going away.

It's a bit like when you ask a politician a question about say money, the answer, more often than not, has nothing to do with the question asked. 

"What really is the problem religionists have with secularism"? After all it guarantees the religious their rights.

ippy
Amazing, ippy, you have suddenly begun to use the term secularism in the more commonly accepted manner.  It's taken you some time, but better late than never.  Will you be able to keep it up, I wonder.   ;)

Looks like the drubbing Prof D gave you Hope may have done some good, now you're turning some of the stuff I have written about secularism around somehow in your own mind, in in a similar way you excuse yourself for believing religious stuff that you must know is nonsense.

I haven't altered my secular viewpoint I've no idea why you're suggesting I have?

ippy


cyberman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7485
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #370 on: July 20, 2015, 06:45:23 AM »

Yes! Jedism isn't part of our heritage 😉 any more than Islam is.

Neither is Christianity.  It was brought over him from abroad by some foreigners. It's true that it was brought over a lot longer ago than Islam, but it is still a foreign import.

That's right, it was a foreign import brought over from abroad by some foreigners.

And it is part of our heritage.


Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #371 on: July 20, 2015, 12:36:55 PM »
Looks like the drubbing Prof D gave you...
Quel drubbing, ippy?
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Leonard James

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12443
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #372 on: July 20, 2015, 12:44:41 PM »

That's right, it was a foreign import brought over from abroad by some foreigners.


No doubt well-intended ... they probably thought they were "educating" us!

All they did was overlay one superstition with another.

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #373 on: July 20, 2015, 01:47:17 PM »
No doubt well-intended ... they probably thought they were "educating" us!
There is some evidence that it may have been brought over by a British trader returning from the Mediterranean.  However, most believe that there was no attempt to evangelise the British when it was first introduced to Britain in the 1st century -

Quote
We tend to associate the arrival of Christianity in Britain with the mission of Augustine in 597 AD. But in fact Christianity arrived long before then, and in the 1st Century AD, there wasn't an organised attempt to convert the British.

It began when Roman artisans and traders arriving in Britain spread the story of Jesus along with stories of their Pagan deities.

Christianity was just one cult amongst many, ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/uk_1.shtml
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 01:51:18 PM by Hope »
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #374 on: July 20, 2015, 02:22:31 PM »
What the heck has Augustine got to do with evangelising the Britons?
He might have been strutting his stuff in what is now the south of England - but Columcille was there before him in the west of Scotland - where he met pre-existing Christian communities founded by Ninian a century earlier.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."