What is the problem religionists have with secularism?

[Udayana]

The spread of IE language could have taken the (usual) two separate paths of cultural flow into the British Isles - one from Central Europe across the North Sea, the other from the South, along the Atlantic coast - accounting for differences between the "celtic" and "germanic" languages.

This would work for both Yamnaya (the current favorite) and Anatolian hypotheses of IE origins.

I wonder what the Bretons and the Celts would think about, What is the problem religionists have with secularism? 

ippy

I should think they were essentially pagan and happy to live and let live, or even integrate. It is only when large empires start to be established that we get gods that make a bid for monopoly and won't allow any competition.

[ippy]

The spread of IE language could have taken the (usual) two separate paths of cultural flow into the British Isles - one from Central Europe across the North Sea, the other from the South, along the Atlantic coast - accounting for differences between the "celtic" and "germanic" languages.

This would work for both Yamnaya (the current favorite) and Anatolian hypotheses of IE origins.

I wonder what the Bretons and the Celts would think about, What is the problem religionists have with secularism? 

ippy

I should think they were essentially pagan and happy to live and let live, or even integrate. It is only when large empires start to be established that we get gods that make a bid for monopoly and won't allow any competition.

Do you mean in the same way that Secularists only want to have a level playing field, where the freedom of religion is taken for granted and at the same time, in the same way freedom from religion would be?

ippy

[Udayana]

Yes, I think so ... as long as you weren't needed as a sacrifice   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The spread of IE language could have taken the (usual) two separate paths of cultural flow into the British Isles - one from Central Europe across the North Sea, the other from the South, along the Atlantic coast - accounting for differences between the "celtic" and "germanic" languages.

This would work for both Yamnaya (the current favorite) and Anatolian hypotheses of IE origins.

I wonder what the Bretons and the Celts would think about, What is the problem religionists have with secularism? 

ippy

I should think they were essentially pagan and happy to live and let live, or even integrate. It is only when large empires start to be established that we get gods that make a bid for monopoly and won't allow any competition.

Do you mean in the same way that Secularists only want to have a level playing field, where the freedom of religion is taken for granted and at the same time, in the same way freedom from religion would be?

ippy

That's all bollocks Ippy and you know it hence the third degree Tim Farron has received about his religious convictions.
Did Milliband get pulled up similarly for being an atheist and, because of it, a vacuous twat? of course not.

[jeremyp]

That's all bollocks Ippy and you know it hence the third degree Tim Farron has received about his religious convictions.

What third degree?  He had a couple of gentle questions about it on the R4 interview I heard, nothing more.

Historically, the English (if not the Scots and Welsh) get very suspicious of people who want to mix religion and politics, mainly because we used to do it all the time and it led to quite a bloodbath. 

[ippy]

Yes, I think so ... as long as you weren't needed as a sacrifice   

Would tthat be like the sacrifice of privileges the religious will be making in the interests of equality for all?

ippy

[ProfessorDavey]

The spread of IE language could have taken the (usual) two separate paths of cultural flow into the British Isles - one from Central Europe across the North Sea, the other from the South, along the Atlantic coast - accounting for differences between the "celtic" and "germanic" languages.

This would work for both Yamnaya (the current favorite) and Anatolian hypotheses of IE origins.

I wonder what the Bretons and the Celts would think about, What is the problem religionists have with secularism? 

ippy

I should think they were essentially pagan and happy to live and let live, or even integrate. It is only when large empires start to be established that we get gods that make a bid for monopoly and won't allow any competition.

Do you mean in the same way that Secularists only want to have a level playing field, where the freedom of religion is taken for granted and at the same time, in the same way freedom from religion would be?

ippy

That's all bollocks Ippy and you know it hence the third degree Tim Farron has received about his religious convictions.
Did Milliband get pulled up similarly for being an atheist and, because of it, a vacuous twat? of course not.

Don't be daft, of course they did. And Clegg too who was also an atheist, although with a Christian wife.

But there is a difference. There isn' any suggestion that Clegg or Miliband's atheism had any direct effect on his voting. By contrast there is a legitimate question to be asked as to whether Farron's voting against gay marriage is linked to his Christian views. And also whether failing to vote for gay marriage is fundamentally compatible with being a 'liberal'.

[Hope]

But there is a difference. There isn' any suggestion that Clegg or Miliband's atheism had any direct effect on his voting. By contrast there is a legitimate question to be asked as to whether Farron's voting against gay marriage is linked to his Christian views. And also whether failing to vote for gay marriage is fundamentally compatible with being a 'liberal'.

Why is it a legitimate question to ask whether someone's voting record is linked to their Christian beliefs when it isn't a legitimate question to ask the same of someone's atheist beliefs?

As for your final question, why would it be assumed that 'liberal' equates with being 'pro-gay marriage'?  The two halves of the question don't appear to match

[ProfessorDavey]

Why is it a legitimate question to ask whether someone's voting record is linked to their Christian beliefs when it isn't a legitimate question to ask the same of someone's atheist beliefs?

Classic fail - atheism isn't a belief.

As for your final question, why would it be assumed that 'liberal' equates with being 'pro-gay marriage'?  The two halves of the question don't appear to match

No liberal equates with allowing people to choose - e.g. for gay people to choose to marry.

[jeremyp]

Why is it a legitimate question to ask whether someone's voting record is linked to their Christian beliefs when it isn't a legitimate question to ask the same of someone's atheist beliefs?

There are no atheist beliefs. 

The problem with a link to Christian beliefs apart from the fact that some of their moral ideals are not as progressive as they might be is that there is this Christian message that the World is going to end and then it will be great for Christians.  That scares me.

[Nearly Sane]

I have an issue with Jeremy Corbyn, in that he supports hom封\表表y, which is witless but it is less of an issue than Tim Farron who (a) sees gay stuff as as a sin and (b) is willing to lie about that by omission. People can.be/ are wrong in my opinion but if at base your morals are based on something utterly different to me, bye!

[Nearly Sane]

Had to edit last post - second seems 404

[Hope]

There are no atheist beliefs. 

Sorry jeremy, but there are no less atheist beliefs as there religious beliefs.  Without a belief system one can't function as a human being.  It s the underpinning foundation of one's approach to life.  However I will accept that a better description would probably be 'humanist beliefs'.

The problem with a link to Christian beliefs apart from the fact that some of their moral ideals are not as progressive as they might be ...

How do you define 'progressive'?  In my view its one of these nebulous terms that have little or no real meaning.

.. is that there is this Christian message that the World is going to end and then it will be great for Christians.  That scares me.

What scares you?  The fact that this world is going to end - even science predicts that.  Or is it your rather throw-away comment that 'it will be great for Christians'?  Are you trying to link this to Floo's thread on hell, in some way.     I suspect that most non-believers will be quite happy with whatever they meet after death. 

[BeRational]

Hope

Surely you understand by now that atheism is NOT a belief system?

If you do not then this had to be explained in simple terms until you do.

You cannot really contribute until you understand this as you will make too many mistakes based on this false understanding.

[ProfessorDavey]

There are no atheist beliefs. 

Sorry jeremy, but there are no less atheist beliefs as there religious beliefs.  Without a belief system one can't function as a human being.  It s the underpinning foundation of one's approach to life.  However I will accept that a better description would probably be 'humanist beliefs'.

Oh no, classic fail number two. Atheism and humanism aren't the same thing. Sure there are plenty of atheist humanists, but there also plenty of atheists that aren't humanist and plenty of humanists that aren't atheist. Sure atheists will have believe systems but that belief system isn't atheism. Atheism is merely a lack of believe in god or gods - nothing more, nothing less.

You really do seem to have a problem grasping this, so perhaps I can try to explain it in a manner you might just grasp. You are a Christian, and that is a belief system and no doubt informs your fundamental approach to life. But I also presume that you do not believe that Thor exists (in a real sense). Is your lack of belief in Thor a belief system (answer - it isn't) - in what way does you lack of belief in Thor inform your fundamental approach to life (answer - I doubt it does at all).

[ippy]

Another drubbing Hope, you've been on the receiving end of a number of successive drubbings just lately Hope, oh dear.

ippy

[cyberman]

Another drubbing Hope, you've been on the receiving end of a number of successive drubbings just lately Hope, oh dear.

ippy

ippy, are you defining "drubbing" as "someone has stated an opposing view?" That seems to be how you're using it. Every time someone disagrees with Hope, you say he's has had a "drubbing". Seems to be different from the way the rest of the English speaking world use it.

[BashfulAnthony]

Another drubbing Hope, you've been on the receiving end of a number of successive drubbings just lately Hope, oh dear.

ippy

ippy, are you defining "drubbing" as "someone has stated an opposing view?" That seems to be how you're using it. Every time someone disagrees with Hope, you say he's has had a "drubbing". Seems to be different from the way the rest of the English speaking world use it.

ippy has always had problems with the English language.

[ippy]

Another drubbing Hope, you've been on the receiving end of a number of successive drubbings just lately Hope, oh dear.

ippy

ippy, are you defining "drubbing" as "someone has stated an opposing view?" That seems to be how you're using it. Every time someone disagrees with Hope, you say he's has had a "drubbing". Seems to be different from the way the rest of the English speaking world use it.

High there Cyb, B A, yes I suppose the use of drubbing could be seen as irritating, well well; at he same time there are posts on this thread that clearly demonstrate there isn't an automatic connection between intelligence and education.

ippy

[Outrider]

atheist beliefs as there religious beliefs.

Atheists are united only by the fact that they don't believe in any gods - that's a unifying lack of belief and everything else is a free-for-all. There is only one shared theist (religious) belief, which is the belief that there is a god.

Adherents of the Abrahamic faiths share more beliefs, Christians a broader set, Catholics even more specific and so on.

Without a belief system one can't function as a human being.

But those belief systems are atheist, they are compatible with atheism - they do not spring from, but rather alongside, atheism. Some theists, presumably, have beliefs about what are the best sport teams in a given league, but their theism does not turn that position into a theistic belief.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

As I have raised before I am not sure I have a belief system rather than a set of beliefs which while in the main are consistent, I don't make an active attempt to codify. Most of my actions don't really seem to happen out of beliefs, indeed maybe none do, since it is all about my little lizard brain and its desires. Beliefs, in the morality sense, feels like a massive post rationalisation.

[BashfulAnthony]

Another drubbing Hope, you've been on the receiving end of a number of successive drubbings just lately Hope, oh dear.

ippy

ippy, are you defining "drubbing" as "someone has stated an opposing view?" That seems to be how you're using it. Every time someone disagrees with Hope, you say he's has had a "drubbing". Seems to be different from the way the rest of the English speaking world use it.

High there Cyb, B A, yes I suppose the use of drubbing could be seen as irritating, well well; at he same time there are posts on this thread that clearly demonstrate there isn't an automatic connection between intelligence and education.

ippy

Now, now, ippy;  no need to run yourself down  -  I'll happily do that for you.   

[ippy]

Another drubbing Hope, you've been on the receiving end of a number of successive drubbings just lately Hope, oh dear.

ippy

ippy, are you defining "drubbing" as "someone has stated an opposing view?" That seems to be how you're using it. Every time someone disagrees with Hope, you say he's has had a "drubbing". Seems to be different from the way the rest of the English speaking world use it.

High there Cyb, B A, yes I suppose the use of drubbing could be seen as irritating, well well; at he same time there are posts on this thread that clearly demonstrate there isn't an automatic connection between intelligence and education.

ippy

Now, now, ippy;  no need to run yourself down  -  I'll happily do that for you.   

Well well an instant example so soon too.

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Some theists, presumably, have beliefs about what are the best sport teams in a given league, but their theism does not turn that position into a theistic belief.

O.

So what you are saying is that atheism tends to cover the ''so what?'', trivial beliefs........

[BashfulAnthony]

Hope

Surely you understand by now that atheism is NOT a belief system?

If you do not then this had to be explained in simple terms until you do.

You cannot really contribute until you understand this as you will make too many mistakes based on this false understanding.

Make him take a test, go on, make him.  Don't leave him alone till he does.   

  (BTW, you haven't passed my "test" yet.