Islamic intolerance

[john]

Muslims who come to the West have the right to practice the articles of their faith guaranteed by law. They can build Mosques, often receiving public funding to do so. Why are there no churches, temples and synagogues in Saudi Arabia (the spiritual home of Islam)?

See also Sassy’s post today in the General Discussion thread to see what happens to Christians in another Islamic country. 

Muslims in the west are free to visit, Stonehenge, The Houses of Parliament, Coventry Cathedral and often Muslim leaders are also often invited to attend religious services held in places such as St Pauls, Westminster Cathedral and even The Vatican. Why are non Muslims prevented from visiting Mecca?

Though I believe I would be allowed to visit the public executions of apostates, the amputations of limbs from minor criminals and view the stoning to death of naughty women. I should be grateful for this privilege permitted by the merciful Allah presumably to discourage me from improper behavoir.   

Muslims (and Jews) in the West are allowed exemption on religious grounds from animal cruelty laws that apply to everyone else so that they can ritually slaughter animals barbarically leaving them to bleed to death slowly. Why cannot we buy communion wine in Saudi Arabia?

Muslim women in the West are allowed to cover themselves except for an eye slit, even when entering banks and petrol stations where I have to remove my crash helmet, for security reasons. If Muslims can be exempted from the cultural norm in dress code here then why can’t my wife drive a hire car in Saudi Arabia whilst wearing shorts and a tee shirt on a hot day?

Why do Muslim refugees’ risk their lives to get to the West then set about trying to establish the same sort of society here from which they fled?

In the very large “shopping mall” near my home Muslims often have a stall from which they hand out tracts etc. They are free to do so. No one seeks to stop them. What happens to Sassy’s preachers when they try to spread their own truths?     

How should we be responding to Islam’s failure to reciprocate the respect we show it?

[trippymonkey]

It really a very weak & frightened religion with no real base to it.
WELLLLL...
One that can very easily be refuted anyway !!!

Purely 'fear of the afterlife' driven with the 'you WILL do as you're told or just look at what we've got in store for YOU !!!!!
None of which is, of course, proveable.

It's stuck in this medieval mind-set despite being 'For ALL People For ALL Time' which is clearly bollox as ALL meat-eaters can so easily eat pork etc
For ALL people IF you stay in this state of thinking, or LACK of it, I'm afraid.

This CAN be applied to other religious views but they tend to be less 'self-destructive'.

I'll just await the predictable reply any time soon.

Nick

[BashfulAnthony]

Difficult to gainsay your post, john!

[jakswan]

How should we be responding to Islam’s failure to reciprocate the respect we show it?

Those things are not representative of all of the Islam or all Muslims but versions of it. We are in danger of prejudging people and label a huge group as 'the other' in the process.

I've spoken to several moderate Muslims who don't think these people represent their faith in the slightest but also don't see the it as their problem, so don't speak out. Likewise liberals in the West are terrified of being seen as islamophobic and remain largely silent, I can see the extremes in both societies winning the day.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Lots of moderate Muslims do speak out. Whether it gets reported in the media is another question - moderate headlines don't generate as much interest as reports on extremism.

Moderate Muslims have also been killed by extremists for speaking out.

Regarding Saudi Wahhabi interpretations of Islam - they have the money from oil to fund schools to teach their brand of Islam so it has spread. Also, Saudi employs a lot of labour from other countries and so countries find it difficult to stand up to the Saudi rulers because Saudi threatens to cut off that country's access to the ME labour markets, which provides a lot of money for the economies of those foreign countries as workers send their wages home to support their families.

Non-Arab Muslim workers also change their practice of Islam because of Saudi influence and patronage, and when they return home they take Wahhabi Islam with them. We are seeing an increasing Wahhabi influence in Sri Lanka.

Saudi buys a lot of military hardware from British firms so the British government is not going to risk offending the Saudis as it provides a huge amount of revenue and taxes for the British economy. So not sure what can be done to get Saudi to be more open and tolerant. As to whether Britain should be tolerant of foreign culture - I think we've discussed on here that it is not good to be too tolerant if it is at the expense of law and order.

[trippymonkey]

G
Unfortunately you're completely right here.

Did you see that prog on ITV last night with EX-Jihadists?
Recorded it but haven't watched it all yet. Seems VERY interesting indeed.

N

[trippymonkey]

Just to balance the arguments. See this horrific set of pics from a recent bombing of a Christian church in Pakistan & THEN tell me Islam has nothing to do with this !!!!

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/in-the-media/graphic-images-of-christian-persecution-under-islam/

[Rhiannon]

Fundamentalist Islam is very much like Christianity once was centuries ago - not only do they try to eradicate other religions but also the wrong kind of their own, too.

[Rhiannon]

How should we be responding to Islam’s failure to reciprocate the respect we show it?

Those things are not representative of all of the Islam or all Muslims but versions of it. We are in danger of prejudging people and label a huge group as 'the other' in the process.

I've spoken to several moderate Muslims who don't think these people represent their faith in the slightest but also don't see the it as their problem, so don't speak out. Likewise liberals in the West are terrified of being seen as islamophobic and remain largely silent, I can see the extremes in both societies winning the day.

I don't know if Gabriella agrees with me, but I think too many parents will become sick of seeing their kids going off to die and change will come from within Islam itself.

[Nearly Sane]

I miss all this non speaking out. I seem to see nothing but speaking out

[Rhiannon]

To be honest, the overwhelming message I get from British Muslims is that they wish the fundies would shut the fuck up and disappear. I don't think they can relate to it a lot easier than we can.

[Hope]

How should we be responding to Islam’s failure to reciprocate the respect we show it?

john, there are those around the world - and not just Muslims - who would ask the same of the UK.  Why doesn't the UK reciprocate the respect that they believe exists in their own countries.  For instance, whilst living in Nepal, I often heard people (many of whom had an understanding of British society though connections with the Gurkhas, and ex-Gurkhas living here) talk about the apparent lack of respect for the elderly here, something that they would never ever allow over there. 

I think that your post indicates a lack of understanding of just how intolerant we - as Britons - can be towards some members of our own communities (as opposed to immigrants/asylum seekers/etc.)

We do better in some spheres and worse in others.

[Hope]

I miss all this non speaking out. I seem to see nothing but speaking out

Couldn't agree more, NS.  Yet there is also an aspect, referred to by an ex Chief Prosecutor for the North West on BBC Breakfast earlier, that often those we see speaking out on TV don't really engage with the young in their communities. 

It reminds me a bit of the situation at the height of the Bridgend youth suicides 10 or 15 years ago; politicians would appear on TV and radio to condemn the practice (it often seemed to be in the form of suicide pacts between friends at the same schools) yet nothing really got done in regards to talking to the children and young people who were involved/affected to work out why it was happening and what could be done to stop the kids doing it.  That came some years later.

[Nearly Sane]

It often seems to me that anyone, Muslim or non Muslim, who questions whether it is correct to regard Islam as some external sole cause, or Muslims as supporting terrorism en bloc, is then argued to somehow be speaking for terrorism.

[jakswan]

I miss all this non speaking out. I seem to see nothing but speaking out

Do you? Where?

[Nearly Sane]

Hope makes an interesting point, in that there is a sense in which speaking out might be an issue, IF it isn't backed up with ways to actually talk to people. Seeing people on TV saying how evil you are if you act in a certain way, might increase the attraction in some ways for some.

If the argument is seen as a simple dichotomy between good and evil, then the actions of usage of drones, amongst other things, can then be argued in a 'they started it' argument to show that it must be the 'West' that is evil. Thinking that the situation has shades of grey does not mean one is justifying ISIS beheading people.

[Nearly Sane]

I miss all this non speaking out. I seem to see nothing but speaking out

Do you? Where?

On news programmes and in newspapers. The problem seems to me that any time any one says I condemn this BUT there are bigger issues, or I utterly condemn it BUT we need to look for wider solutions, all anyone hears is BUT.

[jakswan]

I miss all this non speaking out. I seem to see nothing but speaking out

Do you? Where?

On news programmes and in newspapers. The problem seems to me that any time any one says I condemn this BUT there are bigger issues, or I utterly condemn it BUT we need to look for wider solutions, all anyone hears is BUT.

So for example 'I condemn the BNP but they have been driven to this by Islamic extremists'.

[Hope]

So for example 'I condemn the BNP but they have been driven to this by Islamic extremists'.

Perhaps not that clever an example, jakswan.  For a start, I've never heard anyone say this, and secondly, the BNP long predates Islamic extremism of the kind we are seeing now (ISIS, Al Quaeda, ...)

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting that you chose to follow the BUT with an incredibly simplistic piece of analysis, rather than anything more challenging. I occasionally hear such simplistic approaches but incredibly rarely in comparison to more nuances replies and I hear that simplicity just as often when people say 'I condemn the killing of innoceets by a drone attack BUT it is the price caused by Islamic fundamentalism.' Actually I hear that les because we rarely present details of such deaths in the media at all.

[Rhiannon]

I think we need to accept what whilst there are no excuses for the barbarism of Isil there are reasons for it. There are reasons why our young people are attracted to it.

[Nearly Sane]

To be fair, almost everyone thinks there are reasons, it's just that some people see Islam as a specific external reason, because it subverts how 'civilized' people think and turns them into terrorists.

[john]

Don't worry about it Rose, Gabriella will be along in a mo to assure you it has nothing to do with religion!

[Rhiannon]

I was horrified at the latest news where the women left their husbands and took there children over there.

I find it hard to get my head around that one 

They fell for a load of bullshit.

[Rhiannon]

Someone in their local community said their marriages were unhappy, but I doubt that'll go down well with IS. We'll probably never know what happens to them though.