Author Topic: Islamic intolerance  (Read 25581 times)

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2015, 06:54:28 PM »
You know very well I was being sarcastic but I DO agree with so much of what you say BUT
We need ACTIONS, NOT words on these issues, as you know. !!!

Fasting is purely a 'self' measure & doesn't normally include murdering another individual so that issue is irrelevant here, sorry.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2015, 11:00:27 PM »
You know very well I was being sarcastic but I DO agree with so much of what you say BUT
We need ACTIONS, NOT words on these issues, as you know. !!!

Fasting is purely a 'self' measure & doesn't normally include murdering another individual so that issue is irrelevant here, sorry.
Ok, ACTIONS such as...?
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2015, 11:52:47 PM »
You know very well I was being sarcastic but I DO agree with so much of what you say BUT
We need ACTIONS, NOT words on these issues, as you know. !!!

Fasting is purely a 'self' measure & doesn't normally include murdering another individual so that issue is irrelevant here, sorry.
Ok, ACTIONS such as...?

You're very good at getting from the 'past' to the 'present' but seem to have a lot of trouble going into the 'future' on issues here.
You seem to expect others to do it all.
I know what I'D like to do these people & that's BEFORE I've wiped my backside with them !!!!

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2015, 03:11:40 AM »
Ok, ACTIONS such as...?

You're very good at getting from the 'past' to the 'present' but seem to have a lot of trouble going into the 'future' on issues here.
You seem to expect others to do it all.
I know what I'D like to do these people & that's BEFORE I've wiped my backside with them !!!!
A military solution? Are you suggesting British troops on the ground or funding some 'moderates' to fight the extremists? Have you read 'Charlie Wilson's War' about the U.S. And Saudis funding the Mujahideen against the Soviets? The problem is that people with guns tend to become extremists and it might turn out like Afghanistan and the Soviets all over again, and we know that didn't turn out so well for the U.S. paymasters.

Quote
And other U.S. assistance continued even longer, according to Crile’s Charlie Wilson’s War. In the book, Crile described how Wilson kept the funding spigot open for the Afghan rebels not only after the Soviet departure in 1989 but even after the Soviet Union disintegrated in 1991.

Eventually, the mujahedeen did capture the strategic city of Khost, but turned it into a ghost town as civilians fled or faced the mujahedeen’s fundamentalist fury. Western aid workers found themselves “following the liberators in a desperate attempt to persuade them not to murder and pillage,” Crile wrote.

U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan Robert Oakley began to wonder who were the worse bad guys, the Soviet-backed communists or the U.S.-supported mujahedeen.

“It was the leaders of the Afghan puppet government who were saying all the right things, even paying lip service to democratic change,” Crile reported. “The mujahideen, on the other hand, were committing unspeakable atrocities and couldn’t even put aside their bickering and murderous thoughts long enough to capture Kabul.”

In 1991, as the Soviet Union careened toward its final crackup, the Senate Intelligence Committee approved nothing for Afghanistan, Crile wrote. “But no one could just turn off Charlie Wilson’s war like that,” Crile noted. “For Charlie Wilson, there was something fundamentally wrong with his war ending then and there. He didn’t like the idea of the United States going out with a whimper.”

Wilson made an impassioned appeal to the House Intelligence Committee and carried the day. The committee first considered a $100 million annual appropriation, but Wilson got them to boost it to $200 million, which – with the Saudi matching funds – totaled $400 million, Crile reported.

“And so, as the mujahideen were poised for their thirteenth year of war, instead of being cut off, it turned out to be a banner year,” Crile wrote. “They found themselves with not only a $400 million budget but also with a cornucopia of new weaponry sources that opened up when the United States decided to send the Iraqi weapons captured during the Gulf War to the mujahideen.”

http://www.globalresearch.ca/hollywoods-dangerous-afghan-illusion-charlie-wilsons-war/5331107

Apparently during the end of the Soviet-Afghan war when the Soviet Union was pulling out of Afghanistan, thousands of Muslims men flocked to Afghanistan for 'jihadi vacations' where they pretended to be mujahideen long enough to have their picture taken with a gun to up their street cred back home.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 03:21:51 AM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7520
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2015, 02:29:02 PM »
I wonder if instead of stopping people going to join this extreme group the authorities should be offering anyone who is unhappy with life in the UK free one way tickets, with the proviso they lose their British identity and cannot come back.

People at least then have a choice and it might ease tensions a bit, although families might be unhappy.

I just wonder why we are stopping adults who don't want to be here.

It's harder with children though, but we obviously can't stop people really.

Am I being heartless?

🌹

Many who are not happy here don't want to leave because the life-style they would have to exchange this for is so unattractive in a modern world, even though they largely find our culture and ways anathema.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2015, 03:35:19 PM »
A lesser of 2 evils ??????

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2015, 07:38:55 PM »
I'm getting the impression that some of the young Muslims are finding themselves stuck between two unpalatable worlds. Their Imams are too conservative and out of touch with this western world and the countries they are in don't reflect the ethos they have been brought up in and thus the indigenous people tend to not full accept them. They're half a dozen of one and six of another.....?

These types then look elsewhere for a meaning to their lives.

JP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1885
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2015, 12:29:01 PM »
While taking a break from gardening duty I made a cuppa and put the telly on to find Sunday Morning Live was in full swing. I joined the programme at the part where an adherent of Islam from an organisation called "5Pillarz" was telling everyone how Britain should be ashamed of its history, its empire, its colonial past and had nothing whatsoever to say about the country. His stated preference would have been for the Ottoman Empire to still be a big player (not a trace of irony by the way) and blamed the British for its demise.

Born, and educated here, this was his position. Nothing good to say about the UK, not a thing. You could sense his contempt.

The next highlight was a bit of unscheduled comedy as the Beeb had another adherent of Islam discussing fasting and a ruling that would allow people not to go from dawn till dusk in the upper reaches od the northern hemisphere but within 30 seconds it degenerated into a slagging match between him and the "5Pillarz" bloke.
How can something so perfect be so flawed.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2015, 03:51:54 PM »
Not surprising really - some people have really polarised opinions about things. Some people have nothing good to say about the UK , others have nothing good to say about Islam or Muslims. Even among the people who have the same polarised opinions on one issue, you will find disagreement about other issues.

Welcome to the Religion & Ethics Message Board by the way - you're obviously new around here and have yet to read all the polarised opinions just amongst the few people on here, let alone out in the wider world.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

JP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1885
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2015, 04:55:15 PM »
I would expect a young man, born, raised and educated here would be able to find one thing to say that was good about the UK, but I was mistaken.

He was from somewhere else. He lives here but he is from a different place.  I would wager there are many like him.
How can something so perfect be so flawed.

JP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1885
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2015, 05:07:53 PM »
Also, I see it is the fault of the police that the three Bradford sisters went to the Islamic state and here was me thinking it was because they did not want the children growing up in such a nasty debauched country, or perhaps it is both.

Clearly nothing to do with Islam and their conditioning since birth.
How can something so perfect be so flawed.

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2015, 05:15:24 PM »
While taking a break from gardening duty I made a cuppa and put the telly on to find Sunday Morning Live was in full swing. I joined the programme at the part where an adherent of Islam from an organisation called "5Pillarz" was telling everyone how Britain should be ashamed of its history, its empire, its colonial past and had nothing whatsoever to say about the country. His stated preference would have been for the Ottoman Empire to still be a big player (not a trace of irony by the way) and blamed the British for its demise.

Born, and educated here, this was his position. Nothing good to say about the UK, not a thing. You could sense his contempt.

The next highlight was a bit of unscheduled comedy as the Beeb had another adherent of Islam discussing fasting and a ruling that would allow people not to go from dawn till dusk in the upper reaches od the northern hemisphere but within 30 seconds it degenerated into a slagging match between him and the "5Pillarz" bloke.

I saw this twerp too. The UK has allowed this kind of person to be bred here.
Can you imagine if he were a Christian & said the same thing in, say, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia against THEIR societies. They'd be waiting at the door to 'take him to Paradise' ASAP ?!?!!?!??

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2015, 05:16:55 PM »
I'm getting the impression that some of the young Muslims are finding themselves stuck between two unpalatable worlds. Their Imams are too conservative and out of touch with this western world and the countries they are in don't reflect the ethos they have been brought up in and thus the indigenous people tend to not full accept them. They're half a dozen of one and six of another.....?

These types then look elsewhere for a meaning to their lives.
When looking elsewhere some of them seem to out-conservative the conservatives, whether it is conservative imams or conservative family members. These individuals leave their usual mosque because they find them not radical enough and go seek out something more austere, which i guess could be seen as a rejection of their parents' values as well as the values of the society they live in, but more worryingly a few of them end up either seeking something more violent or are persuaded by extremists to sacrifice their lives for a cause while at the same time killing people from a community they have rejected.

I can understand a rejection of drugs, binge drinking, over-sexualisation of teenagers, consumerism, excessive liberalism and this may well lead to people feeling like they don't fit in but the worrying aspect is when people cut themselves off completely from wider society in order to avoid being exposed to drugs, binge-drinking, over-sexualisation and consumerism because they also miss out on the good stuff that could be incorporated into their own more conservative culture.

As a parent I know the difficulty of countering the influence of excessive liberalism amongst the parents of my children's friends that leads to children overly focusing on their own wants while being dismissive of their responsibilities towards their family, their school or wider society. I am often amazed at how straight-forward rules or punishments for the benefit of the school are regarded by my 15 year old daughter and her friends as affronts to their individual rights. I find myself asking her how she expects the school to act, given they have to run a school and that it is not there as her personal playground, at which point she grudgingly admits that the school made the right decision.

I often have to cut my teenage daughter off from her friends by confiscating her phone, so she actually gets homework or chores done - her friends' parents seem to feel guilty to ask their kids to share in household chores, let alone actually restrict their freedoms in any other ways. Hence my 15 year old daughter gets encouragement from her friends to "stand up to her parents", which apparently is an important aspect of British culture. Much as I would love to be supportive and understanding I often don't have time to deal with ill-informed, emotionally immature, know-it-all revolutionaries so I often find the only thing I do have time for is to lay down the law and cut her off from her friends. I often feel like I don't fit in with British culture (and I have lived here for over 40 years), so I can imagine she feels pretty much the same way. I'm pretty sure one of the reasons she hasn't followed the advice of her friends is because she knows that unlike her friends' parents, this particular Bank of Mum and Dad would cut her off in a heartbeat. It's therefore possible that the young people who are stupidly running off to ISIS are doing it to gain independence from and defy the authority of their immediate family - since ISIS are paying for their their travel. It amazes me that they are groomed to such an extent that they fall for their implausible lies of a wonderful utopia in a war-torn country run by men with guns who slaughter anyone who disagrees with their particular ideology.     

There are grassroots Muslim activists amongst the Muslim communities who have set up safe environments in mosques and community centres (sponsored by donors) for young people (boys and girls) to talk about their issues such as fitting in and sexual attraction and being unable to get understanding from their parents,  as well as gain self-esteem through activities such as sport. There is a huge number of people they can't reach due to lack of volunteers and lack of funds, which I think is a problem for many youth programmes, not just in the Muslim community.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2015, 05:17:14 PM »
I would expect a young man, born, raised and educated here would be able to find one thing to say that was good about the UK, but I was mistaken.

He was from somewhere else. He lives here but he is from a different place.  I would wager there are many like him.
One has to ask oneself why they came here in the first place and where they have come from?......and who let them in?

Quite obviously the multicultural idea has failed and such disparate cultures can not exist along side each other where one has a deep history in a land, and, therefore, things need to be adjusted.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2015, 05:37:18 PM »
I would expect a young man, born, raised and educated here would be able to find one thing to say that was good about the UK, but I was mistaken.

He was from somewhere else. He lives here but he is from a different place.  I would wager there are many like him.
One has to ask oneself why they came here in the first place and where they have come from?......and who let them in?

Quite obviously the multicultural idea has failed and such disparate cultures can not exist along side each other where one has a deep history in a land, and, therefore, things need to be adjusted.
Probably would have come for economic reasons, which coincidentally is the same reason why Britain went abroad to colonise foreign lands, as opposed to because the Brits wanted to immerse themselves in a foreign culture.

What about the 2011 riots and people like Russell Brand who call for revolution and is also very critical of various aspects of Britain, or the problems with gang-culture in general ? It seems like there are lots of cultures and sub-cultures within British culture - the mutli-cultural issues are just one aspect. The young man was at least just being critical, not violent.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 05:41:39 PM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2015, 06:14:37 PM »
I'm getting the impression that some of the young Muslims are finding themselves stuck between two unpalatable worlds. Their Imams are too conservative and out of touch with this western world and the countries they are in don't reflect the ethos they have been brought up in and thus the indigenous people tend to not full accept them. They're half a dozen of one and six of another.....?

These types then look elsewhere for a meaning to their lives.
When looking elsewhere some of them seem to out-conservative the conservatives, whether it is conservative imams or conservative family members. These individuals leave their usual mosque because they find them not radical enough and go seek out something more austere, which i guess could be seen as a rejection of their parents' values as well as the values of the society they live in, but more worryingly a few of them end up either seeking something more violent or are persuaded by extremists to sacrifice their lives for a cause while at the same time killing people from a community they have rejected.

I can understand a rejection of drugs, binge drinking, over-sexualisation of teenagers, consumerism, excessive liberalism and this may well lead to people feeling like they don't fit in but the worrying aspect is when people cut themselves off completely from wider society in order to avoid being exposed to drugs, binge-drinking, over-sexualisation and consumerism because they also miss out on the good stuff that could be incorporated into their own more conservative culture.

As a parent I know the difficulty of countering the influence of excessive liberalism amongst the parents of my children's friends that leads to children overly focusing on their own wants while being dismissive of their responsibilities towards their family, their school or wider society. I am often amazed at how straight-forward rules or punishments for the benefit of the school are regarded by my 15 year old daughter and her friends as affronts to their individual rights. I find myself asking her how she expects the school to act, given they have to run a school and that it is not there as her personal playground, at which point she grudgingly admits that the school made the right decision.

I often have to cut my teenage daughter off from her friends by confiscating her phone, so she actually gets homework or chores done - her friends' parents seem to feel guilty to ask their kids to share in household chores, let alone actually restrict their freedoms in any other ways. Hence my 15 year old daughter gets encouragement from her friends to "stand up to her parents", which apparently is an important aspect of British culture. Much as I would love to be supportive and understanding I often don't have time to deal with ill-informed, emotionally immature, know-it-all revolutionaries so I often find the only thing I do have time for is to lay down the law and cut her off from her friends. I often feel like I don't fit in with British culture (and I have lived here for over 40 years), so I can imagine she feels pretty much the same way. I'm pretty sure one of the reasons she hasn't followed the advice of her friends is because she knows that unlike her friends' parents, this particular Bank of Mum and Dad would cut her off in a heartbeat. It's therefore possible that the young people who are stupidly running off to ISIS are doing it to gain independence from and defy the authority of their immediate family - since ISIS are paying for their their travel. It amazes me that they are groomed to such an extent that they fall for their implausible lies of a wonderful utopia in a war-torn country run by men with guns who slaughter anyone who disagrees with their particular ideology.     

There are grassroots Muslim activists amongst the Muslim communities who have set up safe environments in mosques and community centres (sponsored by donors) for young people (boys and girls) to talk about their issues such as fitting in and sexual attraction and being unable to get understanding from their parents,  as well as gain self-esteem through activities such as sport. There is a huge number of people they can't reach due to lack of volunteers and lack of funds, which I think is a problem for many youth programmes, not just in the Muslim community.
With regard to your first paragraph, were do they get the idea that their conservative mosque culture etc. isn't conservative enough? Why would they think that being even more extreme is the answer or Allah's will?

Para 2 : Feeling part of a community/society/culture involves a lot more than just the 'surface' stuff. So why is it that their Muslim background isn't giving them that deep sense of belonging? (please note these are also rhetorical questions, I don't necessarily expect you to provide comprehensive answers).

Para 3 : That sounds like just being a teenager to me.

Last sentence of Para 4 : I wouldn't know about your teenage years but I do know that teenagers generally, and for myself when I was one long, long ago, that this is the time when one is looking for some big answer to life; some glorious guiding principle to live by, and that sort of stuff.... Also, one's judgement in those years is not very well emotionally grounded.

Para 5 : I always find it odd that the responsibility for these things goes to organisations/government etc. It is the parents job; with say grandparents, to do this job of providing these character building, self esteem, and what not, needs of children. This being a task starting from day one. I'm not saying this is easy nor that the way society is organised that there is enough time for this, as society seems more focused on jobs and finance than the home.

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2015, 06:20:09 PM »
I would expect a young man, born, raised and educated here would be able to find one thing to say that was good about the UK, but I was mistaken.

He was from somewhere else. He lives here but he is from a different place.  I would wager there are many like him.
One has to ask oneself why they came here in the first place and where they have come from?......and who let them in?

Quite obviously the multicultural idea has failed and such disparate cultures can not exist along side each other where one has a deep history in a land, and, therefore, things need to be adjusted.
Probably would have come for economic reasons, which coincidentally is the same reason why Britain went abroad to colonise foreign lands, as opposed to because the Brits wanted to immerse themselves in a foreign culture.

What about the 2011 riots and people like Russell Brand who call for revolution and is also very critical of various aspects of Britain, or the problems with gang-culture in general ? It seems like there are lots of cultures and sub-cultures within British culture - the mutli-cultural issues are just one aspect. The young man was at least just being critical, not violent.
Well, yes, history coming back to bite us on the ass. No such thing as a free lunch.

And again, yes. There's the neo-class war of the 99%ers against the 1% elites. Talk about two parallel societies/cultures under the same roof.

john

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1114
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2015, 07:49:27 PM »
 I notice that Gabriella is once again trying to drag this post away from the original issue. The propensity for Islamic intolerance.

It has been said .......that since 1948 over 11 million Muslims have been killed 90% of them by other Muslims. It was nothing to do with the Western need to secure oil supplies. Simply google Muslim on Muslim violence to see for your self. Here  is one such link to the facts.

 https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/staggering-statistics-on-muslims-killing-muslims-2/

It is not the CIA who force Muslims to push homosexuals off high buildings or find other entertaining ways to dispose of them.

It was not the Russian invasion of Afghanistan that caused Muslims to bury  naughty women up to their necks and then pelt them to death with rocks.

It was not British troops in Iraq who started the craze for chopping the limbs off minor miscreants as a form of public entertainment.

It is not Western Imperialists who are denying young girls access to education.

I could keep on but I suspect you can all think of more examples for yourselves.

Gabriella, when will you face facts and deal with the point;
And yes I know there are lots of decent Muslims about but still it cannot be denied.

There is something about that book.........!!!sic.
"Try again. Fail again. Fail Better". Samuel Beckett

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2015, 07:53:27 PM »
With regard to your first paragraph, were do they get the idea that their conservative mosque culture etc. isn't conservative enough? Why would they think that being even more extreme is the answer or Allah's will?
They probably ran into an individual or group that preached a different ideology - Qutbism for one - and were shown acceptance and understanding, therefore developed an emotional connection with the group rather than with their family (who they couldn't communicate with) or peers (who saw them as different). There were various Salafist organisations in the UK courtesy of Saudi oil money who would hand out pamphlets and talk to people outside mosques in the 90s - my husband and I have run into them - they talked about liberating Palestine from occupation. The Qutbists however were against the Salafists because the Salafists weren't advocating violence and taking the offensive to fight and conquer non-Muslims. Qutbists believe in a different ideology where they think individuals have the right to declare other Muslims as apostates and kill them for not conforming to their particular ideology of what Islam represents to them. This idea came direct from the writings of Qutb, an intellectual and a Muslim who originally had secularist tendencies, went to study in the US for 2 years on a scholarship, returned to Egypt just before the 1952 coup by Nasser, and was later imprisoned, tortured and executed by the Egyptian government in 1966 after trying to assassinate Nasser and by this time had written a pretty extreme manifesto couched in Islamic terms. He was a leading figure in the Muslim Brotherhood, which gained popular support in the 1950s onwards through their charity and community work amongst the rural poor, unemployed etc

Wiki outlines some of the main tenets of Qutbist ideology e.g. the Muslim community (or the Muslim community outside of a vanguard fighting to reestablish it) "has been extinct for a few centuries" having reverted to Godless ignorance (Jahiliyya), and must be reconquered for Islam.

The importance of offensive Jihad to eliminate Jahiliyya not only from the Islamic homeland but from the face of the earth

The Qutbists were out to create some kind of transnational fighting force for Muslims, like NATO for the West. They were quite successful at spreading their manifesto in certain areas where there was poverty and political instability.

Quote
Para 2 : Feeling part of a community/society/culture involves a lot more than just the 'surface' stuff. So why is it that their Muslim background isn't giving them that deep sense of belonging? (please note these are also rhetorical questions, I don't necessarily expect you to provide comprehensive answers).
I think it may have something to do with not being sophisticated enough in their thinking to deal with uncertainty and maybe an element of self-loathing for being drawn to the sexual freedom in British culture when this isn't even discussed in their own homes. It's easy to be certain and have a sense of belonging when you are not presented with ambiguity or appealing alternatives, which is presumably what life in some village in Pakistan or India is like - very little exposure to alternatives.

But in the UK there are so many options and so much freedom, and the internal uncertainty that creates is something that many of us navigate as best we can, usually by balancing uncertainty in some areas with a focus on educational or sporting or work achievements, and also by accepting that we will make mistakes and not beating ourselves up too much about it, and accepting that all we can do is try; but I think all that choice and uncertainty causes some people to feel increasingly unsure of themselves, bad about themselves and feel alienated and they then run into these extreme groups that provide them with certainty and a sense of purpose and belonging because charismatic and controlling members of these groups are so convinced of the righteousness of their cause.

Quote
Para 3 : That sounds like just being a teenager to me.
Yes - it's a real joy being the parent of one. It's payback for the grief I probably gave my own parents.

Quote
Last sentence of Para 4 : I wouldn't know about your teenage years but I do know that teenagers generally, and for myself when I was one long, long ago, that this is the time when one is looking for some big answer to life; some glorious guiding principle to live by, and that sort of stuff.... Also, one's judgement in those years is not very well emotionally grounded.
Yes - I remember sounding off about changing the world and I suppose violence is appealing. I remember befriending a British mercenary I met while doing TA training at university - he had run off to Angola in the 70s when he was about 17 and been shot in the leg, captured, put on trial and sentenced to 16 years in an Angolan jail. The British man who recruited him in the UK was apparently unrepentant about recruiting mercenaries.

Quote
Para 5 : I always find it odd that the responsibility for these things goes to organisations/government etc. It is the parents job; with say grandparents, to do this job of providing these character building, self esteem, and what not, needs of children. This being a task starting from day one. I'm not saying this is easy nor that the way society is organised that there is enough time for this, as society seems more focused on jobs and finance than the home.
True - but a lot of parents don't think it is important or don't have the money or time. My parents didn't think it was important or affordable or were at work, but I carved some freedom for myself at university to make my own decisions about this - hence I joined the OTC where you were paid for doing training.

Hence I prioritise this for my own kids along with good grades. For example, even though my 15 year old daughter is fasting she decided to still play tennis and cricket at a school club and is doing ballet while fasting. She is good at kung fu and a competent swimmer. And is currently out with her friends at a movie to take her mind off fasting.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 07:55:00 PM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2015, 08:10:00 PM »
G
You make it sound like your good daughter is trying to make the best of a bad job with this fasting business ?!!?!!?
A kind of 'I don't WANT to do it but I HAVE to so......'

It was also interesting that the Hindu gent on the right mentioned about conversions & made a great point of it being like at the top of a mountain to start with & going all down one side, only then having to go back up & again & go down the other side. !!!!
Some converts, however, don't seem to have gone down ONE side very far before going backwards !!! ;)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2015, 08:12:05 PM »
I notice that Gabriella is once again trying to drag this post away from the original issue. The propensity for Islamic intolerance.

It has been said .......that since 1948 over 11 million Muslims have been killed 90% of them by other Muslims. It was nothing to do with the Western need to secure oil supplies. Simply google Muslim on Muslim violence to see for your self. Here  is one such link to the facts.

 https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/staggering-statistics-on-muslims-killing-muslims-2/

It is not the CIA who force Muslims to push homosexuals off high buildings or find other entertaining ways to dispose of them.

It was not the Russian invasion of Afghanistan that caused Muslims to bury  naughty women up to their necks and then pelt them to death with rocks.

It was not British troops in Iraq who started the craze for chopping the limbs off minor miscreants as a form of public entertainment.

It is not Western Imperialists who are denying young girls access to education.

I could keep on but I suspect you can all think of more examples for yourselves.

Gabriella, when will you face facts and deal with the point;
And yes I know there are lots of decent Muslims about but still it cannot be denied.

There is something about that book.........!!!sic.
It might help if you find and paste the relevant bits in the book relating to throwing homosexuals off buildings etc. it might help me know specifically what book you are talking about - the Quran or Hadith or the opinion of scholars recorded in a book.

Books influence culture but I think you will find it hard to isolate any book as the cause of violence in society - it is usually a combination of factors.

What do you suggest should be done about intolerant interpretations of Islam? What are your foreign policy suggestions to deal with the problem in Saudi or Pakistan etc? What are your domestic policy suggestions for the government to deal with radical preachers in the UK - they tried to kick them out but got bogged down in lots of Human Rights red tape.

I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2015, 08:15:36 PM »
G
Do the Hadiths hold ANY value to you ever or only when they serve your purpose???

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2015, 08:21:37 PM »
G
You make it sound like your good daughter is trying to make the best of a bad job with this fasting business ?!!?!!?
A kind of 'I don't WANT to do it but I HAVE to so......'
Yes - fasting can be kind of boring as a lot of social activities revolve around food. She likes the social aspect of breaking fast and the social aspect of fitting in with her cousins and extended family so that is probably part of the motivation to fast. I have no idea if she will continue it once she goes to university and spends less time with her family. There is something enjoyable about the month of Ramadan - she says she feels more religious during this month and finds she wants to fast and pray, but says she feels lazy to do it when it is not Ramadan.

Quote
It was also interesting that the Hindu gent on the right mentioned about conversions & made a great point of it being like at the top of a mountain to start with & going all down one side, only then having to go back up & again & go down the other side. !!!!
Some converts, however, don't seem to have gone down ONE side very far before going backwards !!! ;)
I didn't see the programme so don't know what Hindu gent you are referring to or understand the point about the mountain. Not really sure what the problem is about converts - different approaches work for different people so am assuming that once someone finds an approach that works for them and which they can easily connect with, they don't change it.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2015, 08:28:58 PM »
G
Do the Hadiths hold ANY value to you ever or only when they serve your purpose???
They can be an interesting read - depends on the Hadith and if I think it is relevant or provides some insight or perspective for an issue in my life. Since there are contradictions and different ones are considered strong or weak or authentic or inauthentic by different Muslim schools of thought - they are food for thought to get alternative perspectives.

Individuals have various different interpretations of Quranic verses, with different scholars and often opposing schools of Muslim thought developing and building on themes or metaphors or narratives in certain verses. All food for thought.   
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Islamic intolerance
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2015, 08:31:08 PM »
Of course, I agree but what if a religion says ALL else are most definately wrong & you are right in your choice? Meaning all else are second class.
I have no probs with converts, it's just the way they tend to throw themselves so far into it when they 'join-the-club' so to speak.

May we ask how old your daughter is, please? More religious means what, exactly?

Pretty sure you said you were born into a Hindu family so how can your daughter have cousins & an 'extended family' who are fasting now?