Islamic intolerance

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Of course, I agree but what if a religion says ALL else are most definately wrong & you are right in your choice? Meaning all else are second class.

Well, most beliefs (not just religious ones) consist of people believing they are right and others are wrong because if you thought your belief was wrong, presumably you wouldn't live your life by it. It only becomes an issue if you are violent to people whose beliefs you disagree with.

I have no probs with converts, it's just the way they tend to throw themselves so far into it when they 'join-the-club' so to speak.

Do you feel the same way about converts to a political or economic belief or a particular hobby or passion, or is it just religious converts that you find distasteful. Since the convert has no control over the Trippy preferences or criteria about what behaviour is "acceptable" levels of throwing themselves into their religion, I guess it will have to remain your problem to come to terms with. So long as a convert isn't breaking any laws, I don't think their level of interest in their new religion or politics is a big problem for me - we all have to learn to be tolerant of each other's beliefs, views and interests.

May we ask how old your daughter is, please? More religious means what, exactly?

As I said - she is 15. More religious means less distracted by day to day stuff - for example when it is not Ramadan, stopping what you are doing to take ablution (ritual washing) and then pray feels difficult but during Ramadan it feels easy. Fasting is difficult when it is not Ramadan but during Ramadan it is easy after the first couple of days. I haven't eaten or drunk anything since 2.30 this morning but I feel fine, I don't feel hungry or thirsty. I can work, do normal chores and last couple of years I have sometimes gone for a run or done kung fu training while fasting.

[Pretty sure you said you were born into a Hindu family so how can your daughter have cousins & an 'extended family' who are fasting now?

My husband's family - he has a lot of siblings so she has lots of cousins, plus his family is very sociable plus there are community gatherings to break fast together and pray. I went to bed at 1.30am last night because I was clearing up after one of these events.

[trippymonkey]

G
To be honest it doesn't matter one jot what people believe, for me. A belief is ONLY that ! A BELIEF !!! Fact has little to do with it or it wouldn't be a belief, would it?

What bothers me is when they then go on to say everyone else NOT of that faith is totally wrong, as I said before. You know as well as I do Islam says this so YOU have to, as well, no? At least think it although I won't expect you to confirm this here ?!!?!?
We're seeing the results of this at the mo in the middle east & north Africa.

Even being in a 'different' group WITHIN the main 'political party' is frowned on & this can very easily escalate into extreme violence, Sunni - Shia etc.

To be 'tolerant' is such a horrible phrase, no?
Must I be tolerant of a child abuser because they BELIEVE they're doing the child good in the end?

So your ?ex? husband is Hindu but your family are Muslims? What did you 'convert' from then to become a Muslim?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

G
To be honest it doesn't matter one jot what people believe, for me. A belief is ONLY that ! A BELIEF !!! Fact has little to do with it or it wouldn't be a belief, would it?

What bothers me is when they then go on to say everyone else NOT of that faith is totally wrong, as I said before.

You must have got really wound up during the elections then with different people labelling the political beliefs of  others as totally wrong and immoral. You must also get really wound up when people think your morals or ethics are wrong.

You know as well as I do Islam says this so YOU have to, as well, no?

No I don't know that Islam says this and personally I don't view you or the extremists in IS as the people who get to define Islam for everyone else. So yes, you and other Muslims can believe your interpretation and choose to ignore the verse Quran 2:62

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."

But there are lots of Muslims who don't feel they know what will happen to them or anyone else and don't walk around believing they are right and others are totally wrong. By the way Allah is the Arabic word for a monotheistic concept of god.

We're seeing the results of this at the mo in the middle east & north Africa.

We have also seen the results of lots of Muslims just peacefully getting on with their lives or in some cases (Burma, Bosnia, Sri Lanka, Guantanamo, Palestine) being persecuted themselves by people who think the Muslims are totally wrong for being Muslims or for not having the same values, morals, ethical beliefs as their persecutors.

Even being in a 'different' group WITHIN the main 'political party' is frowned on & this can very easily escalate into extreme violence, Sunni - Shia etc.

Yes that happens in various political parties so not just a Muslim problem. Something to do with human nature.

To be 'tolerant' is such a horrible phrase, no?

No I don't think it is a horrible phrase. I think tolerance is good under certain circumstances and inappropriate in other circumstances.

Must I be tolerant of a child abuser because they BELIEVE they're doing the child good in the end?

I am not aware of anyone asking you to tolerate any child abusers around you.

So your ?ex? husband is Hindu but your family are Muslims? What did you 'convert' from then to become a Muslim?

It's really not that difficult to understand - my parents are Hindu, my husband is Muslim. I have no ex. I was an atheist throughout my teens and became a Muslim when I was 23.

[Rhiannon]

Gabriella, I'm not sure I recognise this 'Bristish culture' that you struggle with. Yes, there is a sub-culture that I don't identify with either - I don't get the group among my peers who seem to have stopped developing in their twenties, who go out on the drink both midweek and at the weekend, who leave even the smallest children with inexperienced teenage babysitters, who obsess over clothes and diets and celebrities. But that's fine, because I also have good friends with whom I do identify, and my own sub cultures that I can share with many. And our culture varies so - even within the county where I live the north is very different from the south, take that over the country as a whole with rural, urban, affluent and deprived areas and it becomes harder to see what 'British culture' is - except that I think you will find elements of it that reflect all of us, if you know where to look.

'Standing up to your parents' isn't something I've heard from my daughter or her peers as a part of our culture. Again it's probably a demographic thing but the biggest problem I hear about is parents pushing their kids too hard and kids feeling they aren't measuring up. No doubt it will come but then I felt pissed off with every adult at 14 and by 17 I didn't.

I don't think it is liberalisation that leads to self-absorption so much as a mix of marketing in our media, which is very image-driven, and an over-focus on rights and not responsibilities. A truly liberal country has people who are resilient and who stand on their own two feet whereas we have a state that encourages nannying - the opposite of liberal.

Randomly throwing this in, but I also think the helplessness taught in schools over issues such as climate change doesn't help. If one sees little hope for the future then why not hedonism - or Jihad?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella, I'm not sure I recognise this 'Bristish culture' that you struggle with. Yes, there is a sub-culture that I don't identify with either - I don't get the group among my peers who seem to have stopped developing in their twenties, who go out on the drink both midweek and at the weekend, who leave even the smallest children with inexperienced teenage babysitters, who obsess over clothes and diets and celebrities. But that's fine, because I also have good friends with whom I do identify, and my own sub cultures that I can share with many. And our culture varies so - even within the county where I live the north is very different from the south, take that over the country as a whole with rural, urban, affluent and deprived areas and it becomes harder to see what 'British culture' is - except that I think you will find elements of it that reflect all of us, if you know where to look.

'Standing up to your parents' isn't something I've heard from my daughter or her peers as a part of our culture. Again it's probably a demographic thing but the biggest problem I hear about is parents pushing their kids too hard and kids feeling they aren't measuring up. No doubt it will come but then I felt pissed off with every adult at 14 and by 17 I didn't.

I don't think it is liberalisation that leads to self-absorption so much as a mix of marketing in our media, which is very image-driven, and an over-focus on rights and not responsibilities. A truly liberal country has people who are resilient and who stand on their own two feet whereas we have a state that encourages nannying - the opposite of liberal.

Randomly throwing this in, but I also think the helplessness taught in schools over issues such as climate change doesn't help. If one sees little hope for the future then why not hedonism - or Jihad?

I agree. I think the point I was trying to make was that British culture changes depending on who you talk to. For some children of some relatively affluent Londoners in a private school it means something entirely different to how others would define British culture. I don't come across too many people obsessing about celebrities and yes I find friends amongst the parents of my children's friends but a lot of the time the parents appear to feel very helpless and unsure about whether they have any rights to insist their children follow certain values while living in their home - the parents often seem motivated by a desire to have their children's approval. It reminds me of the Calvin and Hobbes cartoons:

http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1985/12/02

Usually when people cut themselves off from society they are risk averse and driven by fear and uncertainty of unknown elements, so maybe the areas in Britain where Muslims cut themselves off from society is driven by fear of opening themselves up to some of the sub-cultures in their surrounding society because they have exaggerated worries about where that might lead them.

[Rhiannon]

Gabriella, I'm not sure I recognise this 'Bristish culture' that you struggle with. Yes, there is a sub-culture that I don't identify with either - I don't get the group among my peers who seem to have stopped developing in their twenties, who go out on the drink both midweek and at the weekend, who leave even the smallest children with inexperienced teenage babysitters, who obsess over clothes and diets and celebrities. But that's fine, because I also have good friends with whom I do identify, and my own sub cultures that I can share with many. And our culture varies so - even within the county where I live the north is very different from the south, take that over the country as a whole with rural, urban, affluent and deprived areas and it becomes harder to see what 'British culture' is - except that I think you will find elements of it that reflect all of us, if you know where to look.

'Standing up to your parents' isn't something I've heard from my daughter or her peers as a part of our culture. Again it's probably a demographic thing but the biggest problem I hear about is parents pushing their kids too hard and kids feeling they aren't measuring up. No doubt it will come but then I felt pissed off with every adult at 14 and by 17 I didn't.

I don't think it is liberalisation that leads to self-absorption so much as a mix of marketing in our media, which is very image-driven, and an over-focus on rights and not responsibilities. A truly liberal country has people who are resilient and who stand on their own two feet whereas we have a state that encourages nannying - the opposite of liberal.

Randomly throwing this in, but I also think the helplessness taught in schools over issues such as climate change doesn't help. If one sees little hope for the future then why not hedonism - or Jihad?

I agree. I think the point I was trying to make was that British culture changes depending on who you talk to. For some children of some relatively affluent Londoners in a private school it means something entirely different to how others would define British culture. I don't come across too many people obsessing about celebrities and yes I find friends amongst the parents of my children's friends but a lot of the time the parents appear to feel very helpless and unsure about whether they have any rights to insist their children follow certain values while living in their home - the parents often seem motivated by a desire to have their children's approval. It reminds me of the Calvin and Hobbes cartoons:

http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1985/12/02

Usually when people cut themselves off from society they are risk averse and driven by fear and uncertainty of unknown elements, so maybe the areas in Britain where Muslims cut themselves off from society is driven by fear of opening themselves up to some of the sub-cultures in their surrounding society because they have exaggerated worries about where that might lead them.

Well if you look at our print media you'd think celebs were all anyone ever thinks about, even our broadsheets. As to the parenting thing, I think there have always been parents who try not to upset their children and who lose all discipline as a result. I see quite a few young adults - men especially - who still live at home and are over-indulged with their mums still cooking and washing for them and girlfriends allowed to stay over. staggering that they have girlfriends at all when you think about it. But they don't rebel - why on earth would they?

I agree about conservative communities turning inwards out of fear. I think this has been encouraged by various arms of the state over the years - 'multiculturalism' was at least in part a guise for a push for secularism through removing Christianity as part of our national identity, but it backfired massively in that it allowed conservative forms of other religion to flourish unchecked and without criticism. Add to that the enthusiasm for some local authorities to treat each group as separate entities rather than a community - so there are drop in centres for the West Indian community and funding for Asian women's groups - and it isn't hard to see why in some areas our communities are so fractured into 'us' and 'not us'.

[trippymonkey]

This post has gone the way so many have before it.

A religion from the person's POV is almost entirely viewed by their own personality.
Gabriella has 'proved' this again.
She doesn't see, or WON'T see, the conditional differences of her CHOSEN religion, instead seeing what's conveneint at any given time.
The religions chosen says sooo much about the person themselves & nothing really about the faith itself. It's as I said before about choosing a faith.

As with most religions, Islam is a mixed bag of incidents & 'remedies' for at that time !!!! THIS solution may work now but maybe WON'T later on.

That's Life anyway !!!

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

This post has gone the way so many have before it.

A religion from the person's POV is almost entirely viewed by their own personality.
Gabriella has 'proved' this again.

Not surprising really since Nearly Sane (I think I am correct in saying this is what he is arguing) and I have consistently been making this very point - that religious interpretation and practice is a product of an individual's nature/ nurture, including how much they are influenced by social or peer pressure to conform to a particular interpretation of any belief, moral or ethic (religious or non-religious).

She doesn't see, or WON'T see, the conditional differences of her CHOSEN religion, instead seeing what's conveneint at any given time.

It's not just me. There is so much variation in religious interpretation and practice all over the world that clearly everyone is at it. I think it depends on how many different interpretations and ideas people are exposed to. In the UK ideas are exchanged more freely than in other countries but with the rise of the internet ideas are getting through to communities that were previously cut off from them. But at huge risk to the individual - Raif Badawi is a case in point - the Saudi internet blogger who was sentenced to prison and to be flogged for criticising Saudi clerics.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/saudi-arabia-is-teaching-isis-a-lesson-in-cruelty-yet-the-uk-continues-to-defend-them-10324161.html

[Nearly Sane]

Just to note that Gabriella is pretty much spot on in relation to what my position is. I would add that religion is part of the whole environment and there is a feedback loop from the individual to the societal across all influences. I would also add related to a point Rhiannon made earlier that I don't think it is a question so much of multiculturalism that is the issue as its related support of relativism. People make the error gratified accept that there are no absolutes that there can be no standards, sharmweather it us the acceptance of no absolutes that allow us to derive standards from what is chosen willingly rather than imposed

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Just to note that Gabriella is pretty much spot on in relation to what my position is. I would add that religion is part of the whole environment and there is a feedback loop from the individual to the societal across all influences. I would also add related to a point Rhiannon made earlier that I don't think it is a question so much of multiculturalism that is the issue as its related support of relativism. People make the error gratified accept that there are no absolutes that there can be no standards, sharmweather it us the acceptance of no absolutes that allow us to derive standards from what is chosen willingly rather than imposed

With regards to multi-culturalism, I remember my dad telling me a story about when he first came to Britain in 1971 to do his Masters in Civil Engineering at Birmingham university (financially supported by my mother working as a doctor at a hospital in Birmingham). Once he finished and got a job with an engineering firm in Kent, he could not rent a room for him and my mother in Kent because of racism. He eventually changed jobs and worked in London, with my mother working as a Haematologist at the local hospital, rented a place in East London and bought a car and my grandparents brought over my brother and me. He said some local white kids were running on top of the cars parked in the parking area, and he went out and yelled at them and told them off. He was visited by the police who gave him a warning, not the kids. But dad just accepted that in British culture yelling at kids, other than your own, was not acceptable, unlike back in his home country. He did decide though that he didn't want his kids becoming friends with those type of children.

I have heard this kind of thing discussed by a few members of middle-class Hindu and Muslim communities - they are baffled by the lack of insistence from authority that people of all cultures, whether white skinned or brown or black, just obey the law. Maybe the multi-cultural problem came about because people in authority couldn't make allowances for sub-cultures for native white people without making the same allowances for brown people?   

[Jack Knave]

With regard to your first paragraph, were do they get the idea that their conservative mosque culture etc. isn't conservative enough? Why would they think that being even more extreme is the answer or Allah's will?

They probably ran into an individual or group that preached a different ideology - Qutbism for one - and were shown acceptance and understanding, therefore developed an emotional connection with the group rather than with their family (who they couldn't communicate with) or peers (who saw them as different). There were various Salafist organisations in the UK courtesy of Saudi oil money who would hand out pamphlets and talk to people outside mosques in the 90s - my husband and I have run into them - they talked about liberating Palestine from occupation. The Qutbists however were against the Salafists because the Salafists weren't advocating violence and taking the offensive to fight and conquer non-Muslims. Qutbists believe in a different ideology where they think individuals have the right to declare other Muslims as apostates and kill them for not conforming to their particular ideology of what Islam represents to them. This idea came direct from the writings of Qutb, an intellectual and a Muslim who originally had secularist tendencies, went to study in the US for 2 years on a scholarship, returned to Egypt just before the 1952 coup by Nasser, and was later imprisoned, tortured and executed by the Egyptian government in 1966 after trying to assassinate Nasser and by this time had written a pretty extreme manifesto couched in Islamic terms. He was a leading figure in the Muslim Brotherhood, which gained popular support in the 1950s onwards through their charity and community work amongst the rural poor, unemployed etc

Wiki outlines some of the main tenets of Qutbist ideology e.g. the Muslim community (or the Muslim community outside of a vanguard fighting to reestablish it) "has been extinct for a few centuries" having reverted to Godless ignorance (Jahiliyya), and must be reconquered for Islam.

The importance of offensive Jihad to eliminate Jahiliyya not only from the Islamic homeland but from the face of the earth

The Qutbists were out to create some kind of transnational fighting force for Muslims, like NATO for the West. They were quite successful at spreading their manifesto in certain areas where there was poverty and political instability.

Para 2 : Feeling part of a community/society/culture involves a lot more than just the 'surface' stuff. So why is it that their Muslim background isn't giving them that deep sense of belonging? (please note these are also rhetorical questions, I don't necessarily expect you to provide comprehensive answers).

I think it may have something to do with not being sophisticated enough in their thinking to deal with uncertainty and maybe an element of self-loathing for being drawn to the sexual freedom in British culture when this isn't even discussed in their own homes. It's easy to be certain and have a sense of belonging when you are not presented with ambiguity or appealing alternatives, which is presumably what life in some village in Pakistan or India is like - very little exposure to alternatives.

But in the UK there are so many options and so much freedom, and the internal uncertainty that creates is something that many of us navigate as best we can, usually by balancing uncertainty in some areas with a focus on educational or sporting or work achievements, and also by accepting that we will make mistakes and not beating ourselves up too much about it, and accepting that all we can do is try; but I think all that choice and uncertainty causes some people to feel increasingly unsure of themselves, bad about themselves and feel alienated and they then run into these extreme groups that provide them with certainty and a sense of purpose and belonging because charismatic and controlling members of these groups are so convinced of the righteousness of their cause.

Para 3 : That sounds like just being a teenager to me.

Yes - it's a real joy being the parent of one. It's payback for the grief I probably gave my own parents.

Last sentence of Para 4 : I wouldn't know about your teenage years but I do know that teenagers generally, and for myself when I was one long, long ago, that this is the time when one is looking for some big answer to life; some glorious guiding principle to live by, and that sort of stuff.... Also, one's judgement in those years is not very well emotionally grounded.

Yes - I remember sounding off about changing the world and I suppose violence is appealing. I remember befriending a British mercenary I met while doing TA training at university - he had run off to Angola in the 70s when he was about 17 and been shot in the leg, captured, put on trial and sentenced to 16 years in an Angolan jail. The British man who recruited him in the UK was apparently unrepentant about recruiting mercenaries.

Para 5 : I always find it odd that the responsibility for these things goes to organisations/government etc. It is the parents job; with say grandparents, to do this job of providing these character building, self esteem, and what not, needs of children. This being a task starting from day one. I'm not saying this is easy nor that the way society is organised that there is enough time for this, as society seems more focused on jobs and finance than the home.

True - but a lot of parents don't think it is important or don't have the money or time. My parents didn't think it was important or affordable or were at work, but I carved some freedom for myself at university to make my own decisions about this - hence I joined the OTC where you were paid for doing training.

Hence I prioritise this for my own kids along with good grades. For example, even though my 15 year old daughter is fasting she decided to still play tennis and cricket at a school club and is doing ballet while fasting. She is good at kung fu and a competent swimmer. And is currently out with her friends at a movie to take her mind off fasting.

Para 1 : May be the reasons, in part, for these extreme Muslim groups could be partially linked to your second paragraph. That is, the incursion of other worldly views which have been imposed on the Muslim world and outlook - what caused al-Qaeda? Especially from the Americans. What always comes to mind to me is what is claimed the American Indians said of the white man, "White man speaks with fork tongue!" This seems to be a common policy for all politicians throughout the globe. But America and the EU have heavily geared the trade deals in their favour - this is one of the problems for Africa and why we are seeing so many now trying to enter Europe; African nations have basically been starved unless they had something we really needed.

Para 2 : I basically agree. Having one foot in one world and another in another world which is substantially different can't do the constitution much good. Being offered something to escape both but still relates to ones over all background and feelings can seem very attractive; as long as you don't study the details too much.

Para 5 : In evolutionary terms women are thought to live longer than men so that they are fit enough to help with bringing up their grandchildren; passing on the tribes traditions and all that. But the way our modern society is arranged we don't live in such close knit extended families anymore. No wonder parents can't find the time to instil firm cultural values into their kids, that is, have this task shared out into the family circle.

[trippymonkey]

WOW THIS post has suddenly taken a turn for the best
G
Really sorry about your parents but we ALL know of Asian resilience & it's great they managed to find 'their place' in it all. 

I think once we get away from using religion & religious thought here it all seems to ascend to, for me, a better level. Certainly a more interesting one, in any case !!!.

It's not about LOVE in the smaller sense of the word we use on a regular basis but using love as a weapon against HATE which seems to be what's happened with groups like IS etc.

Nick

[Rhiannon]

Moderator: I have split off the posts on Unconditional Love to a new topic on the Religion and Ethics board.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?board=7.0

.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Para 1 : May be the reasons, in part, for these extreme Muslim groups could be partially linked to your second paragraph. That is, the incursion of other worldly views which have been imposed on the Muslim world and outlook - what caused al-Qaeda? Especially from the Americans. What always comes to mind to me is what is claimed the American Indians said of the white man, "White man speaks with fork tongue!" This seems to be a common policy for all politicians throughout the globe. But America and the EU have heavily geared the trade deals in their favour - this is one of the problems for Africa and why we are seeing so many now trying to enter Europe; African nations have basically been starved unless they had something we really needed.

Para 2 : I basically agree. Having one foot in one world and another in another world which is substantially different can't do the constitution much good. Being offered something to escape both but still relates to ones over all background and feelings can seem very attractive; as long as you don't study the details too much.

Para 5 : In evolutionary terms women are thought to live longer than men so that they are fit enough to help with bringing up their grandchildren; passing on the tribes traditions and all that. But the way our modern society is arranged we don't live in such close knit extended families anymore. No wonder parents can't find the time to instil firm cultural values into their kids, that is, have this task shared out into the family circle.

Yes, it's really complex when you read about all the economic, political and social factors that led to this mess. US expansion is one factor but there are many other internal factors. British withdrawal from the ME left a power vacuum, and the reliance on oil was a major factor as people were prepared to go to any lengths to stabilise supply and profit from it. Especially after 1973 when OPEC cut supply and oil prices shot up and governments realised how devestating it would be to their economies if they were cut off from access to oil.

I don't think there is anything wrong with new ideas seeping into cultures, but yes there could be resentment if it happens suddenly and the change does not appear gradual. I imagine for the Arabs it was similar to how people here feel about multi-culturalism. Globalisation was inevitable though as travel and communication become easier so it was always going to happen, but change happens much faster now than it did before.

I think Arab nationalism combined with secularism led to abuses of power - lots of critics were imprisoned and tortured and I doubt that was because of the US or UK though they colluded in it by assisting those governments militarily and with intelligence and paying bribes to secure contracts to benefit their own national interests. This type of extremism by Arab governments to stifle dissent led to extreme responses from political rivals under the banner of Islamism and Qutubism.

But being unwilling to compromise, being unwilling to let go of old tribal or political grievances, corruption, stifling a free press and nepotism, patronage, envy were already part of the culture of the Arab political leaders of the time so I think the Arabs were let down by their leaders. 

Regarding culture and extended family, I agree with your point, but those communities which are close-knit still have to face the fact that their kids will be drawn to the freedoms of British culture and there will be a conflict - which teenager is going to turn down the opportunity to do what they want - they already think they know it all. It's only when you get older that you acquire the wisdom to realise you don't know it all, not even close. It then becomes an issue of how protective a parent can be with someone who thinks they know it all but clearly doesn't, and who ends up dealing with the consequences of bad teenage decisions. It doesn't surprise me that parents decide to retreat to their community and become insular to try to reduce the exposure and risk of the consequences of their teenage off-springs' bad decisions, made at a time when the teenager is still developing an identity, adequate impulse control, when their brains have not finished growing and when they have a distorted view of the world because they have only been exposed to it through the safety net of their parents. I certainly only feel like I acquired some wisdom after my brain had finished growing at about 23 and after Life had kicked me in the teeth a couple of times.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

WOW THIS post has suddenly taken a turn for the best
G
Really sorry about your parents but we ALL know of Asian resilience & it's great they managed to find 'their place' in it all. 

I think once we get away from using religion & religious thought here it all seems to ascend to, for me, a better level. Certainly a more interesting one, in any case !!!.

It's not about LOVE in the smaller sense of the word we use on a regular basis but using love as a weapon against HATE which seems to be what's happened with groups like IS etc.

Nick

This is a Religion & Ethics board - so I kind of expected when I came on here that religious thought would be discussed. I find it interesting - I don't have any need to trash anyone else's religion but I can relate to your need to do so - having once been an atheist myself.

The love part of the thread has been split off to another board. The only way love would work as a weapon against IS hate or hate against Muslims is if people have their basic needs met - such as shelter, secuirty, food, jobs and they also open their minds to alternative perspectives, which kind of depends on the information and opportunities and education they have access to.

[jakswan]

Hence my 15 year old daughter gets encouragement from her friends to "stand up to her parents", which apparently is an important aspect of British culture.

Not part of my British culture.

[JP]

Hence my 15 year old daughter gets encouragement from her friends to "stand up to her parents", which apparently is an important aspect of British culture.

Not part of my British culture.

Nor mine.

[JP]

I have heard this kind of thing discussed by a few members of middle-class Hindu and Muslim communities - they are baffled by the lack of insistence from authority that people of all cultures, whether white skinned or brown or black, just obey the law. Maybe the multi-cultural problem came about because people in authority couldn't make allowances for sub-cultures for native white people without making the same allowances for brown people?

So, let me see if I am correct here. This country has laws, enacted through legislation and consistent with the fundamental principles of the nation, however there is a lack of a requirement from the authorities who enact these laws, a lack of insistence on their part, for people to obey them?

Following on from this, is that those same authorities would make allowances for white people, but because they would get caught out by the brown people who would have to obey laws whites had "allowances" for, they are unable to do this.

This is the cause of our culturally fractured society?

[trippymonkey]

Firstly I'm NOT an atheist. I thought I'd made that clear.
I DO err very greatly on the side of Hinduism, I thought THAT might have been a bit obvious ?!!?!?!?!?
People NOT of a particular religion very often 'see' things adherents don't or won't see because of personal vested interests, maybe?

Your second half I can totally relate to. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Hence my 15 year old daughter gets encouragement from her friends to "stand up to her parents", which apparently is an important aspect of British culture.

Not part of my British culture.

Nor mine.

Possibly this kind of teenage rebellion against parents is just a London private school sub-culture within British culture then, if it doesn't happen where you are.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I have heard this kind of thing discussed by a few members of middle-class Hindu and Muslim communities - they are baffled by the lack of insistence from authority that people of all cultures, whether white skinned or brown or black, just obey the law. Maybe the multi-cultural problem came about because people in authority couldn't make allowances for sub-cultures for native white people without making the same allowances for brown people?

So, let me see if I am correct here. This country has laws, enacted through legislation and consistent with the fundamental principles of the nation, however there is a lack of a requirement from the authorities who enact these laws, a lack of insistence on their part, for people to obey them?

Following on from this, is that those same authorities would make allowances for white people, but because they would get caught out by the brown people who would have to obey laws whites had "allowances" for, they are unable to do this.

This is the cause of our culturally fractured society?

Caught out by the brown people? Based on reports written by white people, it would have to be a policy that applies to all races, otherwise it would raise accusations of institutional racism. Is it news to you that a particular individual (white, brown or black) can be held less culpable by the courts for a criminal offence because of their personal social circumstances e.g. poverty / under-privileged home life? Presumably why social worker reports can be included in information presented to a judge for sentencing.  Various politicians (possibly right-wing I think) bring up the notion of some sort of under-class in Britain.

There are various studies purporting to show that greater social inequality leads to a less cohesive and more unhealthy society. One of the leading causes of social inequality is lack of jobs paying a living wage.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Firstly I'm NOT an atheist. I thought I'd made that clear.
I DO err very greatly on the side of Hinduism, I thought THAT might have been a bit obvious ?!!?!?!?!?
People NOT of a particular religion very often 'see' things adherents don't or won't see because of personal vested interests, maybe?

Your second half I can totally relate to. 

You said you prefer discussions that do not incorporate religious thought so I thought you had dispensed with all religions.

Are you saying you only like discussions about Hinduism? Why spend so much time on the Muslim board? There is enough bad behaviour by Hindus in India - why not start topics on the Eastern religion board to address Hindu intolerance, rather than ignore the issue?

[trippymonkey]

Hindu intolerance, whatever THAT is, is more usually as a REACTION from something else. Remember I go to India regularly so can know first hand what goes on over there.
'Do not incorporate religious thought' Seems like there's some def context involved here. Can you find that please?
I find more BS on the Muslim board than the Eastern religions one so.......
There's only a few Hindus on here anyway. Prob as many Muslims.

N

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yes that's what the Muslims claim about their intolerance, but that claim doesn't excuse Hindu or Muslim intolerance.

Remember my mother grew up in India, went to medical school in Trivandrum, and my parents own a flat in Bangalore, which they go live in about 4 months of every year so they know what goes on there. And according to them Hindu intolerance is an issue in India. Oh and I have visited India a few times myself.

The issue of Hindu child brides, misogyny, Eve teasing, are also current issues in India.

The reason there is more BS on the Muslim boards is because you are a frequent visitor on here. When you start frequenting the Eastern religions board there will undoubtedly be more of your BS on the Eastern religions board.

[trippymonkey]

Well we won't be seeing you there as you know even less about your family's religion than the one you carelessly picked later on.

Some just can't see the truth when it smacks them in the face, eh ?!!?!?