Football 2015/16

[ProfessorDavey]

Vokes, Robson -Kanu, and Williams all born in  England

Also with pretty tenuous eligibility criteria - in each case a single Welsh grandparent. One of them played for England at under 17 and 19 level.

[jeremyp]

Also with pretty tenuous eligibility criteria - in each case a single Welsh grandparent. One of them played for England at under 17 and 19 level.

Wales have done really well to get into the semifinals. They haven't broken any of the eligibility rules, so let's not be mean spirited about this.

[ProfessorDavey]

Wales have done really well to get into the semifinals. They haven't broken any of the eligibility rules, so let's not be mean spirited about this.

I'm not being mean spirited at all - don't forget this has been standard practice for years - remember the great Irish side of the early 90s.

I think it is interesting however that players who clearly sided with Wales as it gave them the opportunity of an international career that they felt they would be unlikely to have remaining with England, have outperformed the very players who they felt were blocking their paths to international caps.

That said it is rather funny that all of their goals against Belgium came from their 'flag of convenience' players.

[ad_orientem]

Bye bye, Wales! He he!

[ProfessorDavey]

Bye bye, Wales! He he!

A bit of an anticlimax really last night. I think the loss of Ramsey was massive - to my mind he has been their best player throughout the tournament.

[ad_orientem]

Payet.

[ProfessorDavey]

Payet.

I meant Wales' best player of the tournament, not the best player of the tournament in any team.

[Maeght]

I meant Wales' best player of the tournament, not the best player of the tournament in any team.

Its not only what you meant - its what you said!

[ProfessorDavey]

Its not only what you meant - its what you said!

I know

[ad_orientem]

Yeah, I see now. I have a habit of skimming over posts.

[jakswan]

Bye bye, Wales! He he!

We will have fond memories of this tournament, Wales did great. We shouldn't snigger at England. Muhahahahaha.

Onto next season a RaE fantasy football league. I know we'd lose to Davey and Ado who know everything about everything but its not the winning but the taking part that counts!

[ad_orientem]

We will have fond memories of this tournament, Wales did great. We shouldn't snigger at England. Muhahahahaha.

Onto next season a RaE fantasy football league. I know we'd lose to Davey and Ado who know everything about everything but its not the winning but the taking part that counts!

But you still lost to a crap England side. Ha ha! What pissed me off was the Welsh team celebrating when England got knocked out. Sod all that supporting home nations shite. It's all a load of bollocks! And at the end of the day you won nothing: last 16 or semi-final, it's all the same. Both teams went home losers.

[ProfessorDavey]

But you still lost to a crap England side. Ha ha! What pissed me off was the Welsh team celebrating when England got knocked out. Sod all that supporting home nations shite. It's all a load of bollocks! And at the end of the day you won nothing: last 16 or semi-final, it's all the same. Both teams went home losers.

Well I think that was bound to happen.

But you really can't imply the overall result was similar for England and Wales. England (yet again in a big tournament) under-achieved badly and went out to Iceland for crying out loud.

Wales massively exceeded expectations, although the draw did fall pretty kindly for them. Their biggest achievement being the comprehensive beating of Belgium, who are themselves I imagine having an England style post mortem - this was Belgium's very best change of winning a big tournament, with their own golden generation, or at least getting to the final. And they blew it at the quarter final stage.

Back to England - well we are back onto the standard post mortem, with all the orthodox views trotted out yet again with the one glaring issue (as ever) quietly ignored. In my view England are never really going to be good enough until a significant number of their player are prepared to move to clubs in other countries and being playing in the top flight in Italy, Spain, Germany etc.

[ad_orientem]

What England needs is some tactical savy. That starts at the manager. We need to find our own style. We need to stop picking names (even when they're not in form) and trying find a system around them but have a system and pick on form players accordingly. The FA also needs a complete overhauling.

[ProfessorDavey]

What England needs is some tactical savy. That starts at the manager. We need to find our own style. We need to stop picking names (even when they're not in form) and trying find a system around them but have a system and pick on form players accordingly. The FA also needs a complete overhauling.

Of course we need someone who is tactically savy, but we've been failing over countless years with manager after manager with excellent prior track records (and Steve McClaran), but I don't think that's enough.

We don't have any players who are demonstrably successful except in the English game (and that isn't the same as how the game is played in many other places). The countries who have been successful are much more worldly wise, with top players playing across Europe, understanding the different nuances of the game in England vs Italy vs Spain vs Germany etc etc.

And actually in the more modern era (when players were much more movable internationally) our most successful period - the 1990s was the one when we had the greatest number of players in the squad with experience at club level outside of England.

[wigginhall]

Very good point that, by Prof. D.   It's as if many English players are happy to exist in a kind of closed in world of English football, English tactics, kick and rush.  OK, they get the benefit of foreign players and managers, but most don't play in a different country and culture.   Ronaldo played in England and Spain, how many English players have played in Portugal and Spain?   

[ad_orientem]

I don't entirely buy the argument. Most of our top players play for clubs which play regular European football and are managed by foreign coaches. Why, as a player, would you want to play in a league with two good sides and 16 or 18 shite sides when you can play in the Premier League where any side, on their day, can beat any other side?

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't entirely buy the argument. Most of our top players play for clubs which play regular European football and are managed by foreign coaches. Why, as a player, would you want to play in a league with two good sides and 16 or 18 shite sides when you can play in the Premier League where any side, on their day, can beat any other side?

Because there are different ways of playing. So a player may seem OK playing in the PL way of playing, but way be woefully exposed if playing a different way. Likewise someone might seem so/so in the PL but would really shine in Spain, where the type of football played is different.

So at the moment we are extremely limited - all we know is that the players picked for England seem OK in the PL, but tournament after tournament under-achieve when up against other countries, who without exception (for those winning and coming close to winning big tournaments) have players with a much wider experience of playing in the top leagues across Europe.

Just look at the current tournament - there are 3 teams left, every one has players with experience (including currently) of playing in top clubs in England, Germany, Spain and Italy.

The English squad, I think only had one player with any experience outside of the English leagues structure - a reserve goalkeeper with a couple of seasons with Celtic.

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't entirely buy the argument. Most of our top players play for clubs which play regular European football and are managed by foreign coaches. Why, as a player, would you want to play in a league with two good sides and 16 or 18 shite sides when you can play in the Premier League where any side, on their day, can beat any other side?

So the Euro 2016 final will be between two teams - one with players currently playing in 6 countries, the other with players currently playing in 7 countries. And in each case there is experience of even more countries when you consider previous clubs.

Both countries are stuffed full of experience of the game in England, Italy, Spain and Germany (the big four leagues) plus France too.

And you'll see this if you look back at the finalists in pretty well every tournament for years. A pure coincidence? I think not.

So are the players in the French and Portugese squads inherently much better than those in ours (noting that quite a few are going head to head with the players in the English squad in the PL) - hmm perhaps, but not obviously. Are they far far more experienced and savvy of playing successfully for and against the differing playing styles you get in different countries - undoubtedly. Our players only know how to play 'English' their players know how to play not just 'English' but also 'Italian', 'Spanish', 'German' and 'French'.

It is the elephant in the room, but the FA and many others refuse to admit it. The issue isn't non English players in the PL (as there are tons of non French players in the French league, non Italian players in Italy etc) - nope the issue is too few (in reality as near to none as makes no difference) English players playing outside England or with any actual experience outside England.

[jakswan]

So the Euro 2016 final will be between two teams - one with players currently playing in 6 countries, the other with players currently playing in 7 countries. And in each case there is experience of even more countries when you consider previous clubs.

Both countries are stuffed full of experience of the game in England, Italy, Spain and Germany (the big four leagues) plus France too.

And you'll see this if you look back at the finalists in pretty well every tournament for years. A pure coincidence? I think not.

So are the players in the French and Portugese squads inherently much better than those in ours (noting that quite a few are going head to head with the players in the English squad in the PL) - hmm perhaps, but not obviously. Are they far far more experienced and savvy of playing successfully for and against the differing playing styles you get in different countries - undoubtedly. Our players only know how to play 'English' their players know how to play not just 'English' but also 'Italian', 'Spanish', 'German' and 'French'.

It is the elephant in the room, but the FA and many others refuse to admit it. The issue isn't non English players in the PL (as there are tons of non French players in the French league, non Italian players in Italy etc) - nope the issue is too few (in reality as near to none as makes no difference) English players playing outside England or with any actual experience outside England.

Your analysis is flawed, Spain won the world cup and two European Championships with handful of players based overseas, when they played Italy and Germany in the finals their opposition only had a handful of overseas players.

The Premier League is the richest in the world, you could look at the number of Internationals appearing in major International Tournaments compare what league they play in and conclude that this league produces the best players.

Causation and correlation are not the same thing.

You should expect England to be in the top 16 in the world, in 4 of the last 5 World Cups they have finished in the top 16.

The US doesn't produce a great football team because many of its young athletes play Baseball & American Football, England has the same problem to a lesser extent with Rugby & Cricket.

I know several people I grew up with that chose Rugby over football and vice versa, they made this choice at 10-12 years old, its impossible to know if they made the wrong choice but its inevitable that some of them did, the pool of talent is diluted.

This sort of analysis is like Greg Dyke's nonsense claims that foreign players take opportunities from home-grown players - flawed.

[ProfessorDavey]

Your analysis is flawed, Spain won the world cup and two European Championships with handful of players based overseas, when they played Italy and Germany in the finals their opposition only had a handful of overseas players.

Not true - although Spain have historically been dominated by players who play and have played exclusively in Spain, their improvement to best in the world (having, like England suffered decades of under-achievement) coincided with a much more international approach, with a significant number of players having experience outside of Spain.

So to look at their winning squad in 2012, they had players playing at that time in top teams in England, Italy and Germany, as well as Spain. And more still with experience outside of Spain, for example:

Albiol, Pique, Martinez, Torres, Fabregas, deGea, Mata, Xavi Alonso, Costa, Carzola, Silva, Azpilicueta and Reina

That's over half their squad with experience outside Spain. And even in 2008 at the start of their domination 8 or their 23 man squad had experience outside of Spain.

Compare that with the current England squad, with the only non-English experience being their third choice goalkeeper's couple of seasons at Celtic.

Clearly when you have a strong league you will have plenty of players playing in that league, but in recent times all the most successful teams internationally have brought significant experience of playing in top leagues outside of their home country to their international squads.

[ProfessorDavey]

Not true - although Spain have historically been dominated by players who play and have played exclusively in Spain, their improvement to best in the world (having, like England suffered decades of under-achievement) coincided with a much more international approach, with a significant number of players having experience outside of Spain.

So to look at their winning squad in 2012, they had players playing at that time in top teams in England, Italy and Germany, as well as Spain. And more still with experience outside of Spain, for example:

Albiol, Pique, Martinez, Torres, Fabregas, deGea, Mata, Xavi Alonso, Costa, Carzola, Silva, Azpilicueta and Reina

That's over half their squad with experience outside Spain.

Compare that with the current England squad, with the only non-English experience being their third choice goalkeeper's couple of seasons at Celtic.

Clearly when you have a strong league you will have plenty of players playing in that league, but in recent times all the most successful teams internationally have brought significant experience of playing in top leagues outside of their home country to their international squads.

And if you look back you can see the problem:

So these are the number of players in the squad with any experience outside of England. Then I've indicated whether that experience is in another top league (Spain, Italy, Germany, France). Then I've indicated the number of players with non-English experience who actually played:

2016 Euros - 1, 0, 0 (Forster) – last 16
2014 World Cup - 1, 0, 0 (Forster) – out at group stage
2012 Euros - 0, 0, 0 – quarter final
2010 World Cup - 0, 0, 0 – last 16
2006 World Cup - 2, 2, 2 (Beckham, Hargreaves) – quarter final
2004 Euros - 2, 2, 2 (Beckham, Hargreaves) – quarter final
2002 World Cup - 1, 1, 1 (Hargreaves) – quarter final
2000 Euros - 1, 1, 1 (McManaman) – group stage
1998 World Cup - 0, 0, 0 – last 16
1996 Euros - 3, 3, 3 (Ince, Gascoine, Platt) – semi final
1992 Euros – 4, 3, 4 (Woods, Steven, Platt, Lineker)- last 8 (were only 8 teams)
1990 World Cup – 7, 3, 6 (Stevens, Butcher, Waddle, Beardsley, Lineker, Woods, Steven) – semi final

Make of that what you will

[ProfessorDavey]

And if you look back you can see the problem:

So these are the number of players in the squad with any experience outside of England. Then I've indicated whether that experience is in another top league (Spain, Italy, Germany, France). Then I've indicated the number of players with non-English experience who actually played:

2016 Euros - 1, 0, 0 (Forster) – last 16
2014 World Cup - 1, 0, 0 (Forster) – out at group stage
2012 Euros - 0, 0, 0 – quarter final
2010 World Cup - 0, 0, 0 – last 16
2006 World Cup - 2, 2, 2 (Beckham, Hargreaves) – quarter final
2004 Euros - 2, 2, 2 (Beckham, Hargreaves) – quarter final
2002 World Cup - 1, 1, 1 (Hargreaves) – quarter final
2000 Euros - 1, 1, 1 (McManaman) – group stage
1998 World Cup - 0, 0, 0 – last 16
1996 Euros - 3, 3, 3 (Ince, Gascoine, Platt) – semi final
1992 Euros – 4, 3, 4 (Woods, Steven, Platt, Lineker)- last 8 (were only 8 teams)
1990 World Cup – 7, 3, 6 (Stevens, Butcher, Waddle, Beardsley, Lineker, Woods, Steven) – semi final

Make of that what you will

Just some more context, both France and Portugal heading into the final on Sunday have 18 of their 23 player squads with experience outside their home leagues - and that includes all the major leagues.

Germany winning the 2014 world cup had 9 players with experience outside of Germany, Spain in 2012 had 13, in 2010 and 2008 they had 8 with experience outside of Spain.

[ProfessorDavey]

Just some more context, both France and Portugal heading into the final on Sunday have 18 of their 23 player squads with experience outside their home leagues - and that includes all the major leagues.

Germany winning the 2014 world cup had 9 players with experience outside of Germany, Spain in 2012 had 13, in 2010 and 2008 they had 8 with experience outside of Spain.

Anyone else out there want to play

Oh well, just me then.

Also interesting to look at Spain. Don't forget that prior to 2008 Spain were England's rivals as the great under-achievers in international football. Despite having some of the best club sides in the world, and regularly winning club competitions, they'd won nothing at international level since 1964 - even more years of hurt than England.

And when you look at the squads they were selecting throughout those long lean years from the 70s through to the mid noughties you'll notice something that is similar to England - they were incredible insular with no players or vanishingly few with any experience outside of Spanish league football. So for example even as late as 2000 and 2002 their squads contained not a single player with experience outside of Spain.

So their move from perennial underachievers to world beaters exactly mirrored the period when their squads started to contain players who had experience of playing outside of Spain.

England really need to look at this and consider that this might just be the biggest reason for their perennial underachievement. How you persuade the likes of Rashford, Kane, Alli etc that they might actually become better players (and better players for England) if they spent a couple of seasons at Bayern Munich, or AC Milan or Athletico Madrid rather than having their horizons narrowed to just the top PL clubs is another matter though.

[jakswan]

I would say the biggest under-achievers currently are Belgium which undermines your hypothesis.

Players are not going to move on the notion that can improve more abroad, they will follow the money.