Football 2015/16

[jakswan]

When did England last finish in the top 16 in the World?

Four of the last five world cups.

[ProfessorDavey]

Minor nitpick: he's three times achieved automatic promotion to the EPL which beats play-off final winner.

True - but he has still won nothing except for this. Finishing second and getting promotion isn't winning something.

Anyway, if you are looking for an English manager to manage England, options are limited at the moment. If they have to have won something at top flight club level as a manager and played for England, I can't think of anybody.

Indeed, but why do we need to have an English manager - that mould was broken some while ago.

And you are right there are no English managers with any credible track record, so we should go for a non English manager with an appropriate record. I think the days of thinking that to be a mistake are long gone.

[ProfessorDavey]

Four of the last five world cups.

And in all that time their sole knock-out stage victories have been against those footballing giants of Ecuador and Denmark.

Par for England (based on eligible population, that football is the dominant sport and sufficient infrastructure to support development of a top quality international team, including a internationally competitive club league) is last 8 in world cup and somewhere between quarter final and semi-final in Euros.

[ProfessorDavey]

When did England last finish in the top 16 in the World?

2010

[jeremyp]

Four of the last five world cups.

That's not a date. I asked when.

In the last World Cup we didn't even get out of our group.

In the last Europeran Championship we got into the last 16 just but failed to win against a team of championship players and amateurs. But, of course, that was just Europe, not the World.

[ProfessorDavey]

That's not a date. I asked when.

In the last World Cup we didn't even get out of our group.

In the last Europeran Championship we got into the last 16 just but failed to win against a team of championship players and amateurs. But, of course, that was just Europe, not the World.

See above.

And the last time England won a match in the knock-out stages of a tournament was 25th June 2006, over 10 years ago, when they beat the mighty Ecuador 1-0 in Germany.

[ProfessorDavey]

So they have gone for Sam Allardyce.

A man, who despite being 60, has exactly zero experience of international football, either as player or manager.

A man whose club managerial career is so uninspiring that in 20 years the only thing he has won is the 3rd division title back in 1998!!

[ad_orientem]

Yep. A completely uninspired appointment by the FA but sadly it doesn't surprise me.A sad day for English football.

[jeremyp]

True - but he has still won nothing except for this. Finishing second and getting promotion isn't winning something.
Indeed, but why do we need to have an English manager - that mould was broken some while ago.

But because Capello's reign is considered to be a failure (even though Jakswan considers the 2010 World Cup to be a success), all foreign managers are apparently wrong for England.

And you are right there are no English managers with any credible track record, so we should go for a non English manager with an appropriate record. I think the days of thinking that to be a mistake are long gone.

We are in agreement.

[jeremyp]

Yep. A completely uninspired appointment by the FA but sadly it doesn't surprise me.A sad day for English football.

Oh my Dog, I agree with Ad O.

Our only hope is that your wrongness on just about everything includes the England manager, but I fear the worst.

Well, no, What will happen is that we will qualify for the World Cup with ease and then put on a lacklustre display in the finals getting knocked out by Andorra in the last 16.

[jeremyp]

See above.

And the last time England won a match in the knock-out stages of a tournament was 25th June 2006, over 10 years ago, when they beat the mighty Ecuador 1-0 in Germany.

So it's 10years since England "overachieved" in a tournament according to Jakswan's criteria.

2016 EC - last 16 (but it would be reasonable to assume we should have made last 8, especially with the draw): FAILURE

2014 WC - Bottom in group making us between 24 and 32: FAILURE

2012 EC - Last 8 - par for the EC

2010 WC - Last 16, par according to Jakswan but failed to beat USA (where football is a considered girls' game)  and only came second in group: FAILURE

2008 EC - Failed to qualify: EPIC FAILURE

2006 WC - Last 8, Yay!: SUCCESS although we lost to Portugal in the last 8, a country with one fifth of the population of England

[ProfessorDavey]

But because Capello's reign is considered to be a failure (even though Jakswan considers the 2010 World Cup to be a success), all foreign managers are apparently wrong for England.
We are in agreement.

But in retrospect of the past 4 managers (two English and 2 non-English) the best record is Sven, the worst McLaran and I'd put Capello's record no worse than Hodgson.

[ProfessorDavey]

So it's 10years since England "overachieved" in a tournament according to Jakswan's criteria.

2016 EC - last 16 (but it would be reasonable to assume we should have made last 8, especially with the draw): FAILURE

2014 WC - Bottom in group making us between 24 and 32: FAILURE

2012 EC - Last 8 - par for the EC

2010 WC - Last 16, par according to Jakswan but failed to beat USA (where football is a considered girls' game)  and only came second in group: FAILURE

2008 EC - Failed to qualify: EPIC FAILURE

2006 WC - Last 8, Yay!: SUCCESS although we lost to Portugal in the last 8, a country with one fifth of the population of England

I don't think last 8 is par for EC - if that's the case who are the 7 teams supposedly better than us, looked at on objective grounds (eligible population, commitment to football as number 1 sport, and infrastructure including strength of club league).

On that basis surely we should be in the top 5 (with Germany, Spain, Italy and France) - so top 4 should be par - i.e. sometimes you'd achieve higher, sometimes lower, but overall you are ranked somewhere in the mix of that top 5 teams.

[jakswan]

But because Capello's reign is considered to be a failure (even though Jakswan considers the 2010 World Cup to be a success), all foreign managers are apparently wrong for England.

Yes that was the 4-1 to Germany, 2-0 down and effectively came back to 2-2, pushed to hard to get back into it and got caught out by a very good German team.

English football was broken then and needed "fixing".

[jakswan]

Sam doesn't surprise me in a results based business he gets results. When England qualify for the WC again and finish in the top 16 it will be another "disaster" and another new fix will be applied. 

[jeremyp]

But in retrospect of the past 4 managers (two English and 2 non-English) the best record is Sven, the worst McLaran and I'd put Capello's record no worse than Hodgson.

Capello's record is better than Hodgson's. He got England into the last eight of a World Cup. Hodgson didn't get us out of the group stage.

[jeremyp]

I don't think last 8 is par for EC - if that's the case who are the 7 teams supposedly better than us,

Sorry, I was loosely applying the Jakswan success criteria.

I think top four should be Euro par with France and Germany being the only teams that should really be stronger than us. We should be in the mix with Spain and Italy. I think top 8 should be our World Cup par. If you assume we are top four in Europe, outside Europe I can only think of Brazil and Argentina that should be regularly above us.

[jeremyp]

Sam doesn't surprise me in a results based business he gets results. When England qualify for the WC again and finish in the top 16 it will be another "disaster" and another new fix will be applied.

What are the competitions he has won?

Sam's "results" are generally saving clubs from relegation. He is supremely good at that, but are they the same skills that an international manager needs?

[ProfessorDavey]

Sam doesn't surprise me in a results based business he gets results.

On what evidence does he get results.

His record as a manager is poor - his only success being winning the fourth tier of English football back in 1998.

And his win % is pretty dreadful too - in most cases way below 40% - even McLaran did much better than that with England