Author Topic: Boris.  (Read 16045 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Boris.
« Reply #75 on: June 22, 2015, 02:34:00 PM »
In this, circumstance, which I encounter quite often, I either:
a) wait behind the vehicle or slow down behind it
b) overtake on the inside (undertake) and wait in front of it - sometimes having to cross the stop line so I can be clearly seen
or
c) stop by it but make sure that the driver has seen me - I expect the driver to give way, especially as I can usually start off faster than them
d) where possible of-course I pull out and overtake on their outside - eg in a queue or if they are ahead of me but still waiting to turn left

The most dangerous for me is when a car overtakes me then turns left in front of me without giving me any room even to slow down. I should not have to slow down or stop: just because it was going faster than me when it overtook does not mean that I cannot have caught up with it - and be parallel on their inside by the time they have slowed down for their turn.
The safest place for a cyclist to be at a junction is directly in front of all the other vehicles, so there is no possibility it can be in anyone's blind spot. That's why many junctions have boxes only for bikes in advance of the stop line for other road users (not that that stops cars regularly blocking them).

But one of the most dangerous places to be is within the block of traffic at a junction (or even trying to get to the 'safe' advance box), because you are always in someone's blind spot.

And many junctions have a dedicate left hand lane for bikes specifically to allow them safely to get to the advance box. But as often as not some numpty driver is blocking it often because they want to turn left and position themselves as near to the kerb as they can. And it only takes one deeply inconsiderate driver out of a whole line of stationary traffic to make the journey to the advance box impossible or much more dangerous than it needs to be.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Boris.
« Reply #76 on: June 26, 2015, 09:46:28 PM »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Boris.
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2015, 12:13:34 PM »
In this, circumstance, which I encounter quite often, I either:
a) wait behind the vehicle or slow down behind it
b) overtake on the inside (undertake) and wait in front of it - sometimes having to cross the stop line so I can be clearly seen
or
c) stop by it but make sure that the driver has seen me - I expect the driver to give way, especially as I can usually start off faster than them
d) where possible of-course I pull out and overtake on their outside - eg in a queue or if they are ahead of me but still waiting to turn left

The most dangerous for me is when a car overtakes me then turns left in front of me without giving me any room even to slow down. I should not have to slow down or stop: just because it was going faster than me when it overtook does not mean that I cannot have caught up with it - and be parallel on their inside by the time they have slowed down for their turn.
A typical incident this morning on my London bike commute.

Cycling near Old Street. Three lanes - left lane is a bus lane also allowed to be used as a cycle lane. The middle and right hand lanes for other traffic. I was cycling along the left hand bus/cycle lane going straight on. I was passed by a car in the middle lane, who then slowed when directly alongside me (I was probably in line with the back wheel). The car then (without signalling) started moving across into my lane, then signalled left and proceeded to try to turn into a side street with me still on her inside. Had it not been for me yelling stop and the driver having her window open due to the heat so she heard me, she'd have taken me out.

Given that she'd been overtaking me I struggle to understand how she couldn't have been aware of my presence, nor that I'd now be in her blind spot. When I asked what on earth she was doing, she looked completely bemused as if I suddenly appeared out of nowhere. Fortunately I didn't get a mouthful of abuse which is pretty par for the course from drivers who have nearly killed or injured you due to their own inability to drive safely.

Did I do anything wrong - nope, not a thing. I had priority and was going straight on.

Did she do anything wrong - yup, lots:
1. She shouldn't have overtaken me if she then planned to turn left.
2. Mirror, signal, manoeuvre - hmm in her case the manoeuvre came largely before the signal and I've no idea whether she even checked her mirrors - certainly she seemed blissfully ignorant of my presence.
3. She drifted across the bus lane, which she isn't allowed to enter. If turning left she needs to do that from her own lane, having checked it is safe to do.
4. She attempted to turn left when she didn't have priority so to do. When turning off a major route onto a minor one (whether turning right or left) traffic going straight on has priority.
5. She made a manoeuvre that was inherently unsafe.

A fairly standard occurrence as a regular cyclist, placing the cyclist in danger of injury or worse.
 -

Udayana

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Re: Boris.
« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2015, 01:00:07 PM »
Yes, PD, I've had similar experiences ...basically due to zombie drivers  >:(
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Boris.
« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2015, 01:00:40 PM »
Whether it is true or not I don't know, but I have been told that in France if there is an incident involving a car and a bicycle there is an assumption of no fault on the part of the cyclist unless it can be proved different.

I spend about three months each year in France and try to treat cyclists with appropriate respect. I try to be equally wary in England. I don't find it difficult.
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Udayana

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Re: Boris.
« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2015, 01:09:41 PM »
It's not difficult as long as one pays attention - not on the phone, arguing with wife or kids or thinking up excuses for work etc. Not driving on mental "auto".
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Boris.
« Reply #81 on: July 01, 2015, 07:40:05 PM »

How is it that the Mods have let this thread proceed so long without pointing out that it is, and has been for a long time, totally derailed?  It is pointed out often enough elsewhere.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 05:40:49 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

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It is my commandment that you love one another."

jeremyp

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Re: Boris.
« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2015, 09:11:41 PM »

But the most important is the law on right of way. Turning traffic must give way to traffic going straight on (unless there is a right or left filter and the straight on traffic is stopped). This applies to both turning left and right. Further vehicles should only make a manoeuvre if safe to do so. A left turning car which cuts across a bike on its inside which is going straight on falls foul of these regulations.

And there's also a general rule not to overtake on the inside precisely because a vehicle outside you is not expecting it.

A cyclist should not be overtaking cars on the inside, which can easily happen in urban areas - cyclists are often the fastest vehicles on the road.

 
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Boris.
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2015, 01:28:21 PM »

But the most important is the law on right of way. Turning traffic must give way to traffic going straight on (unless there is a right or left filter and the straight on traffic is stopped). This applies to both turning left and right. Further vehicles should only make a manoeuvre if safe to do so. A left turning car which cuts across a bike on its inside which is going straight on falls foul of these regulations.

And there's also a general rule not to overtake on the inside precisely because a vehicle outside you is not expecting it.

A cyclist should not be overtaking cars on the inside, which can easily happen in urban areas - cyclists are often the fastest vehicles on the road.

 
Firstly it is understandable that you didn't really understand the real example I gave a couple of days ago, because obviously you weren't there. But I was and much of what you say is either irrelevant or flat out wrong.

Firstly in my recent incident (one of many similar ones) I never overtook the car at all. The car overtook me and then when alongside me drifted into my lane (a bus lane) without indicating and then manoeuvred to turn left into a side street only at that point indicating left. This left me trapped on her inside and had I not been able to attract her attention she would have knocked my off my bike or worse.

It would be the equivalent of driving in the inside lane of a motorway and being overtaken by a car in the middle lane who while still alongside you moved into your lane without signalling to try to exit the motorway directly from the middle lane with a car on their inside. Except of course in that scenario the car is allowed in the inside pan, while in my incident the car isn't allowed in the lane I was in as it is a bus/cycle lane.

As a pointed out previously she did a whole raft of things that were wrong - I did nothing wrong.

But on your more general point you aren't right. The only time (well unless you are Bradley Wiggins) a bike is likely to be going fast enough to overtake a car is if the traffic is congested otherwise slowed, which as you indicate is often in urban areas. Where there are more than one line of traffic (which could of course include a line of cars and a separate line of bikes) and one line is moving slowly the Highway Code is absolutely clear that you can overtake on the left:

'stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left'

So a cycle is perfectly entitled to pass a line of stationary or slow moving cars on the left. Indeed the Highway Code also indicates in many places that this is likely to happen and for drivers (and indeed cyclists themselves) to be aware that bikes may be passing them (legitimately) on the left hand side e.g.

'In slow-moving traffic. You should ... be aware of cyclists and motorcyclists who may be passing on either side.'

'Use your mirrors and give a left-turn signal well before you turn left. Do not overtake just before you turn left and watch out for traffic coming up on your left before you make the turn, especially if driving a large vehicle. Cyclists, motorcyclists and other road users in particular may be hidden from your view.'

And there is a further point here relating to bus/cycle lanes. These are specifically designed to allow buses to pass more rapidly through traffic (and bikes allegedly more safety). These are nearly always on the left - if a bus in a bus lane (or a cycle) was not permitted to pass slow moving or stationary traffic on the left hand side there would be no point in having a bus lane in the first place as the buses would be forced to move at the speed of the rest of the traffic to avoid passing on the left.

On priority for traffic going straight on rather than turning, well the general rule is clear. Unless otherwise specifically indicated traffic continuing straight on on a main route has priority over traffic turning off that main route onto a minor route - and that applies whether turning right or left and for traffic going in the same direction or the opposite direction.

To suggest that a car turning left with a bike on its inside going straight has priority is the equivalent of saying that a car turning left off a motorway from the middle lane has priority over a car on its inside in the inside lane going straight on. This is non-sense and simply not correct.

But in my specific example the priority is even clearer (and again me in the right, her in the wrong). Remember I was in a bus/cycle lane and the Highway code specifically says:

'give way to any vehicles using a bus lane, cycle lane or tramway from either direction.'

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Boris.
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2015, 02:13:46 PM »
To suggest that a car turning left with a bike on its inside going straight has priority is the equivalent of saying that a car turning left off a motorway from the middle lane has priority over a car on its inside in the inside lane going straight on. This is non-sense and simply not correct.
The simplest way to consider this is by reference to lines on the road. If your planned manoeuvre involves crossing a line (e.g. stop or give way, line dividing lanes, line that goes across the entrance of a minor road, central dividing lines on a road) then you do not have priority over traffic that plans to continue on a path that doesn't mean it crosses a line.

So you don't have priority exiting a minor road over traffic on a major road. You don't have priority turning right on a major road compared to oncoming traffic going straight on. You don't have priority if overtaking or chaining lanes over traffic going straight on.

And of course if turing left into a minor road (which means crossing a line) you don't have priority over traffic going straight on and won't cross a line, which of course includes over a bike on your inside.