Author Topic: The face of Jesus  (Read 16791 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2015, 12:53:38 PM »
Alan what did you think of the picture the children related to, whom have claimed to have spoken to Christ?
I have come across this before.  It looks to be a very kind face, but I personally do not find it very special.

I believe that is why graven images of anything in the heavens or earth is not allowed.. do you see yet?
My interpretation of the first commandment relates to forbidding adoration of the image itself, rather than what it depicts.

Biblical images have inspired many artists for hundreds of years.  I do not see anything wrong with artists using their creative gifts to depict images inspired by their faith.  But we need to remember that it is the inspiration behind the created image that should be the source of our adoration.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Rhiannon

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2015, 12:55:18 PM »
I rather like this.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/a234/1282186/

And this

https://www.nationalgalleries.org/collection/artists-a-z/e/artist/sir-jacob-epstein/object/the-risen-christ-gma-1092

And this

http://www.theguardian.com/arts/pictures/image/0,8543,-10204720077,00.html
The image in the first link looks remakably like my imagined image of St Peter.
I find the clean shaven sculptures in the next two links interesting, but a bit too modern looking to be authentic.

That makes no sense at all. How can an image of a person be 'too modern'? We haven't evolved thst much in the last 2000 years.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2015, 02:24:04 PM »
I wondered what image would be the first to come to mind so I cleared thoughts and let the picture appear and, not really surprisingly for me, it was Christ of Saint John of the Cross by Dali.

Alan Burns

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2015, 02:46:38 PM »
I rather like this.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/a234/1282186/

And this

https://www.nationalgalleries.org/collection/artists-a-z/e/artist/sir-jacob-epstein/object/the-risen-christ-gma-1092

And this

http://www.theguardian.com/arts/pictures/image/0,8543,-10204720077,00.html
The image in the first link looks remakably like my imagined image of St Peter.
I find the clean shaven sculptures in the next two links interesting, but a bit too modern looking to be authentic.

That makes no sense at all. How can an image of a person be 'too modern'? We haven't evolved thst much in the last 2000 years.
It is the clean shaven look that puts me off.  I know Roman nobility used to shave in this period, but do did not think Jewish carpenters or fishernen had this facility.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Rhiannon

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2015, 05:15:18 PM »
I wondered what image would be the first to come to mind so I cleared thoughts and let the picture appear and, not really surprisingly for me, it was Christ of Saint John of the Cross by Dali.

I saw that at the Seeing Salvation exhibition. Completely awesome.

It was a staggering exhibition actually. Well worth seeking out the exhibition catalogue if you didn't get there.

Rhiannon

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2015, 05:22:26 PM »
I rather like this.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/a234/1282186/

And this

https://www.nationalgalleries.org/collection/artists-a-z/e/artist/sir-jacob-epstein/object/the-risen-christ-gma-1092

And this

http://www.theguardian.com/arts/pictures/image/0,8543,-10204720077,00.html
The image in the first link looks remakably like my imagined image of St Peter.
I find the clean shaven sculptures in the next two links interesting, but a bit too modern looking to be authentic.

It's likely that men at the time were not clean shaven, but it is also unlikely that they had long hair and fair skin. Does an image need to fit the classic 'Light of the World' image to be 'authentic'?

What about this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnus_Dei_(Zurbar疣)

BashfulAnthony

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2015, 05:31:28 PM »


To repeat:"   it matters not a tiny bit what He looked like.  Are people only persuaded into paying attention to Him by His looks?  If so, how superficial is that!
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Rhiannon

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2015, 05:37:28 PM »
That's why religious art is so powerful, BA. Whether the image is 'authentic' or not isn't the point; if is how an image speaks to the soul.

Did you look at the link to the Zurbaran?

Nearly Sane

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2015, 05:43:18 PM »
I wondered what image would be the first to come to mind so I cleared thoughts and let the picture appear and, not really surprisingly for me, it was Christ of Saint John of the Cross by Dali.

I saw that at the Seeing Salvation exhibition. Completely awesome.

It was a staggering exhibition actually. Well worth seeking out the exhibition catalogue if you didn't get there.

Being a Glaswegian, it is a picture close to my heart, and it was an astounding bit of business. I remember going to see it when I was 11 in Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum, a cathedral of art and being astounded by it, though it isn't my favourite in the collection which is Rembrandt' s Man in Armour - and there is a hint of a view of Jesus in that, it hints at wanting the cup of violence to be removed but accepting that it will not be. Then again my second favourite is Cadell' s Orange Blind with its hint of illicit afternoon delight.


In the end though both Bash and Alan are right here . It matters not to your belief what you see and yet it still might be useful for some to understand what others see. In the end were one to believe there is a clear case for it being in this (below) ad in anything else

http://tinyurl.com/qfjvfc8

BashfulAnthony

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2015, 05:47:51 PM »
That's why religious art is so powerful, BA. Whether the image is 'authentic' or not isn't the point; if is how an image speaks to the soul.

Did you look at the link to the Zurbaran?

I haven't looked at the link, yet.

But what you are describing is art appreciation, not religious appreciation.  I think it very superficial, in religious terms, to be influenced by looks.  It is so in any terms.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Rhiannon

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2015, 05:52:38 PM »
I'd reserve judgement til you've seen it, BA.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2015, 05:57:27 PM »
That's why religious art is so powerful, BA. Whether the image is 'authentic' or not isn't the point; if is how an image speaks to the soul.

Did you look at the link to the Zurbaran?

I haven't looked at the link, yet.

But what you are describing is art appreciation, not religious appreciation.  I think it very superficial, in religious terms, to be influenced by looks.  It is so in any terms.

Oi, you down there, stop digging!

BashfulAnthony

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2015, 05:58:24 PM »
I'd reserve judgement til you've seen it, BA.

I've had a look, and my first reaction is one of pure sympathy for the sheep, and then of animal rights, but not of thoughts of Jesus.  It is the Cross which does that for me.

 
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Rhiannon

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2015, 06:03:14 PM »
So Jesus isnt the Sacrificial Lamb of God? It doesn't move you to think on how helpless he was on our behalf, how bound he was to suffering?

When I saw that painting I could barely bring myself to look at it. And not because it is a cute lamb.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2015, 06:36:39 PM »
So Jesus isnt the Sacrificial Lamb of God? It doesn't move you to think on how helpless he was on our behalf, how bound he was to suffering?

When I saw that painting I could barely bring myself to look at it. And not because it is a cute lamb.

Yes He is, but to me that is properly brought home by the actual, brutal, reality of the Cross;  and that always brings me to tears.. When I look at the sacrificed lamb, that renders me helpless, too, but for other reasons.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Alan Burns

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2015, 08:50:09 AM »
So Jesus isnt the Sacrificial Lamb of God? It doesn't move you to think on how helpless he was on our behalf, how bound he was to suffering?

When I saw that painting I could barely bring myself to look at it. And not because it is a cute lamb.

Yes He is, but to me that is properly brought home by the actual, brutal, reality of the Cross;  and that always brings me to tears.. When I look at the sacrificed lamb, that renders me helpless, too, but for other reasons.
Yes, I agree with you on this.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Rhiannon

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2015, 09:02:32 AM »
I find images of the crucifixion too ubiquitous to have any kind of shock value - and they generally are sanitised versions of what a crucified body would look like anyway. The Zurbaran shocks because of the helplessness of the sacrificial lamb; it raises questions from a theological point of view - how bound was Christ to his sacrifice, was it something he chose or was it chosen for him? - but also sacrifice in general - how much choice do people have over the sacrifices they make, and is it ever justifiable to sacrifice someone or something that is helpless for the greater good? Here the image of the lamb could represent nature in general, which we have bound and sacrificed for our own ends.

It's a powerful work.

jjohnjil

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2015, 10:45:45 AM »
Even in the days when I was a Christian did any representations of Jesus, on the cross or otherwise, do anything for me at all!

Strange that, because I have always been moved by paintings of the crucifiction of Christ.  It seems such a cruel method of execution and there were thousands in those days and for hundreds of years after that.

I used to wonder what actually killed them, but apparently it is very slow suffocation due to you becoming so tired that you are unable to find the strength to move your chest muscles to breathe in!  Horrible death!   .   

Shaker

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2015, 10:54:28 AM »
I used to wonder what actually killed them, but apparently it is very slow suffocation due to you becoming so tired that you are unable to find the strength to move your chest muscles to breathe in! Horrible death!   .
That was only the case if the legs were broken - with broken legs there's nothing to support the weight of the upper body, meaning that the torso would sag and, as you say, the victim would die of suffication; horrible but on balance not that long lasting, which is why in some cases victims would have their legs broken deliberately.

Otherwise, the victim could last for some considerable time and could expect to die of a combination of exhaustion, dehydration, blood loss, exposure .... not nice and not quick either. It would have been worse if you'd been young, fit and healthy, because you would have lasted longer. Take it away Wikipedia:

Quote
The length of time required to reach death could range from hours to days depending on method, the victim's health, and the environment. A literature review by Maslen and Mitchell identified scholarly support for several possible causes of death: cardiac rupture, heart failure, hypovolemic shock, acidosis, asphyxia, arrhythmia, and pulmonary embolism. Death could result from any combination of those factors or from other causes, including sepsis following infection due to the wounds caused by the nails or by the scourging that often preceded crucifixion, eventual dehydration, or animal predation.

A theory attributed to Pierre Barbet holds that, when the whole body weight was supported by the stretched arms, the typical cause of death was asphyxiation. He wrote that the condemned would have severe difficulty inhaling, due to hyper-expansion of the chest muscles and lungs. The condemned would therefore have to draw himself up by his arms, leading to exhaustion, or have his feet supported by tying or by a wood block. When no longer able to lift himself, the condemned would die within a few minutes. Some scholars, including Frederick Zugibe, posit other causes of death. Zugibe suspended test subjects with their arms at 60ー to 70ー from the vertical. The test subjects had no difficulty breathing during experiments, but did suffer rapidly increasing pain,which is consistent with the Roman use of crucifixion to achieve a prolonged, agonizing death.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

jjohnjil

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2015, 11:07:02 AM »
I used to wonder what actually killed them, but apparently it is very slow suffocation due to you becoming so tired that you are unable to find the strength to move your chest muscles to breathe in! Horrible death!   .
That was only the case if the legs were broken - with broken legs there's nothing to support the weight of the upper body, meaning that the torso would sag and, as you say, the victim would die of suffication; horrible but on balance not that long lasting, which is why in some cases victims would have their legs broken deliberately.

Otherwise, the victim could last for some considerable time and could expect to die of a combination of exhaustion, dehydration, blood loss, exposure .... not nice and not quick either. It would have been worse if you'd been young, fit and healthy, because you would have lasted longer. Take it away Wikipedia:

Quote
The length of time required to reach death could range from hours to days depending on method, the victim's health, and the environment. A literature review by Maslen and Mitchell identified scholarly support for several possible causes of death: cardiac rupture, heart failure, hypovolemic shock, acidosis, asphyxia, arrhythmia, and pulmonary embolism. Death could result from any combination of those factors or from other causes, including sepsis following infection due to the wounds caused by the nails or by the scourging that often preceded crucifixion, eventual dehydration, or animal predation.

A theory attributed to Pierre Barbet holds that, when the whole body weight was supported by the stretched arms, the typical cause of death was asphyxiation. He wrote that the condemned would have severe difficulty inhaling, due to hyper-expansion of the chest muscles and lungs. The condemned would therefore have to draw himself up by his arms, leading to exhaustion, or have his feet supported by tying or by a wood block. When no longer able to lift himself, the condemned would die within a few minutes. Some scholars, including Frederick Zugibe, posit other causes of death. Zugibe suspended test subjects with their arms at 60ー to 70ー from the vertical. The test subjects had no difficulty breathing during experiments, but did suffer rapidly increasing pain,which is consistent with the Roman use of crucifixion to achieve a prolonged, agonizing death.

I didn't know about the leg breaking bit, Shaker, but speaking as someone who is always ...strrrrretching ... I can't think of anything worse than hanging in that position!

Rhiannon

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2015, 12:52:18 PM »
i have a great deal of sympathy with the idea that Jesus came to show us how to live, not how to die. The idea of penal substitution has no place in a just world. So when I look at the Cross I see man's inhumanity to man. And I do think Jesus died for me in the sense that he tried to make the world a better place, and died for it.

When I was a Christian I was puzzled that the Christus Rex wasn't found in more places or homes. I rather like this one.

http://www.bookexcursions.com/delta/valparaiso_chapel_windows.htm

BashfulAnthony

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2015, 01:59:52 AM »
Even in the days when I was a Christian did any representations of Jesus, on the cross or otherwise, do anything for me at all!

Strange that, because I have always been moved by paintings of the crucifiction of Christ.  It seems such a cruel method of execution and there were thousands in those days and for hundreds of years after that.

I used to wonder what actually killed them, but apparently it is very slow suffocation due to you becoming so tired that you are unable to find the strength to move your chest muscles to breathe in!  Horrible death!   .

Crucifixion was/is the very apex of brutality.. Bear in mind that Jesus had also been beaten and flogged:  the flogging alone was enough to kill very often.  And how do you assess the mental anguish?
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

BashfulAnthony

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2015, 02:04:55 AM »
I find images of the crucifixion too ubiquitous to have any kind of shock value - and they generally are sanitised versions of what a crucified body would look like anyway. The Zurbaran shocks because of the helplessness of the sacrificial lamb; it raises questions from a theological point of view - how bound was Christ to his sacrifice, was it something he chose or was it chosen for him? - but also sacrifice in general - how much choice do people have over the sacrifices they make, and is it ever justifiable to sacrifice someone or something that is helpless for the greater good? Here the image of the lamb could represent nature in general, which we have bound and sacrificed for our own ends.

It's a powerful work.

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."   God chose Him to make the sacrifice, and He accepted that, though, not surprisingly, with trepidation.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Nearly Sane

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2015, 02:11:20 AM »
Given it was him choosing him and the actual death part was for a couple of days and given that he knew that being him, actually the trepidation is not only surprising, it's just bizarre.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: The face of Jesus
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2015, 02:17:42 AM »
Given it was him choosing him and the actual death part was for a couple of days and given that he knew that being him, actually the trepidation is not only surprising, it's just bizarre.

I don't think "bizarre" is the right word.  It's difficult for you and me to appreciate why, or how, someone could commit to such an ordeal.  But it is not only Jesus who has done that:  there are people in history who have been prepared to sacrificed themselves, or place themselves in positions of deadly suffering for an ideal, or for others.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 02:29:14 AM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."