Author Topic: Unconditional love  (Read 62921 times)

BashfulAnthony

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Unconditional love
« on: June 21, 2015, 11:21:04 PM »
Moderator:

An interesting discussion has arisen on the Muslim topic and it would be interesting to open this up to theists and non-theists alike.

What is unconditional love? Is it even desirable?


Gabriella,

A thought.  I am interested to know what the Qur'an says about love.  The New Testament is very specific, love being the guiding principle.  Unconditional love for your fellow man is not an explicit teaching of the Qur'an.  Or, if it is, it is not prominent.  If you are a Muslim, please suggest some verses, but please limit it to the actual Qur'an.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:40:29 PM by Rhiannon »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Unconditional Love
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2015, 11:56:51 PM »
Gabriella,

A thought.  I am interested to know what the Qur'an says about love.  The New Testament is very specific, love being the guiding principle.  Unconditional love for your fellow man is not an explicit teaching of the Qur'an.  Or, if it is, it is not prominent.  If you are a Muslim, please suggest some verses, but please limit it to the actual Qur'an.
I don't think the Quran advocates unconditional love for your fellow man - I could be wrong but my impression from reading the Quran is that it doesn't emphasise love - it emphasises doing good deeds, being kind, merciful, humble and just - but I don't think there is any requirement for unconditional love. So people forgive others as an act of mercy or compassion or by being humble enough to be aware of their own failings because that is considered good and also out of love for Allah.

I have to say - the whole unconditional love thing doesn't really do anything for me.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:42:16 PM by Rhiannon »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

BashfulAnthony

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Unconditional Love
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2015, 02:01:48 AM »
Gabriella,

A thought.  I am interested to know what the Qur'an says about love.  The New Testament is very specific, love being the guiding principle.  Unconditional love for your fellow man is not an explicit teaching of the Qur'an.  Or, if it is, it is not prominent.  If you are a Muslim, please suggest some verses, but please limit it to the actual Qur'an.
I don't think the Quran advocates unconditional love for your fellow man - I could be wrong but my impression from reading the Quran is that it doesn't emphasise love - it emphasises doing good deeds, being kind, merciful, humble and just - but I don't think there is any requirement for unconditional love. So people forgive others as an act of mercy or compassion or by being humble enough to be aware of their own failings because that is considered good and also out of love for Allah.

I have to say - the whole unconditional love thing doesn't really do anything for me.


May I ask why?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:44:04 PM by Rhiannon »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

BashfulAnthony

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Unconditional love
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2015, 10:42:08 AM »
Gabriella,

A thought.  I am interested to know what the Qur'an says about love.  The New Testament is very specific, love being the guiding principle.  Unconditional love for your fellow man is not an explicit teaching of the Qur'an.  Or, if it is, it is not prominent.  If you are a Muslim, please suggest some verses, but please limit it to the actual Qur'an.
I don't think the Quran advocates unconditional love for your fellow man - I could be wrong but my impression from reading the Quran is that it doesn't emphasise love - it emphasises doing good deeds, being kind, merciful, humble and just - but I don't think there is any requirement for unconditional love. So people forgive others as an act of mercy or compassion or by being humble enough to be aware of their own failings because that is considered good and also out of love for Allah.

I have to say - the whole unconditional love thing doesn't really do anything for me.


May I ask why?

I like the whole unconditional love thing, but don't find it in Christianity either.

There are conditions to being saved.

If there were none, that's unconditional and it wouldn't exclude people of any faith or none.

Rose, Jesus' death has given the great gift of Redemption.  That is unconditional love in action, and all you are required to do is accept Jesus in your life.  So, no strings.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:45:05 PM by Rhiannon »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Unconditional love
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2015, 11:24:24 AM »
Gabriella,

A thought.  I am interested to know what the Qur'an says about love.  The New Testament is very specific, love being the guiding principle.  Unconditional love for your fellow man is not an explicit teaching of the Qur'an.  Or, if it is, it is not prominent.  If you are a Muslim, please suggest some verses, but please limit it to the actual Qur'an.
I don't think the Quran advocates unconditional love for your fellow man - I could be wrong but my impression from reading the Quran is that it doesn't emphasise love - it emphasises doing good deeds, being kind, merciful, humble and just - but I don't think there is any requirement for unconditional love. So people forgive others as an act of mercy or compassion or by being humble enough to be aware of their own failings because that is considered good and also out of love for Allah.

I have to say - the whole unconditional love thing doesn't really do anything for me.


May I ask why?
I am not sure if my reason makes any sense but I think it is because I don't value love unless I have to earn it through words or deeds. I find it unfathomable that someone should love me regardless of how I act. Also I don't think I have a capacity to love unconditionally. Even as a parent, I have a maternal instinct, whereby I would protect my children from harm without worrying about the cost to me, but I am not sure I love them unconditionally - not sure what loving them unconditionally means. I can imagine situations where I would want nothing to do with them unless they made amends e.g. if they deliberately and cruelly hurt someone else. 

I suppose it depends on the definition of love. If it is defined as just recognising someone as a fellow human being, wishing someone well without any depth to it, I guess I am ok with that. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:45:27 PM by Rhiannon »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Rhiannon

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Unconditional love
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2015, 11:45:20 AM »
Gabriella,

A thought.  I am interested to know what the Qur'an says about love.  The New Testament is very specific, love being the guiding principle.  Unconditional love for your fellow man is not an explicit teaching of the Qur'an.  Or, if it is, it is not prominent.  If you are a Muslim, please suggest some verses, but please limit it to the actual Qur'an.
I don't think the Quran advocates unconditional love for your fellow man - I could be wrong but my impression from reading the Quran is that it doesn't emphasise love - it emphasises doing good deeds, being kind, merciful, humble and just - but I don't think there is any requirement for unconditional love. So people forgive others as an act of mercy or compassion or by being humble enough to be aware of their own failings because that is considered good and also out of love for Allah.

I have to say - the whole unconditional love thing doesn't really do anything for me.


May I ask why?

I like the whole unconditional love thing, but don't find it in Christianity either.

There are conditions to being saved.

If there were none, that's unconditional and it wouldn't exclude people of any faith or none.

Rose, Jesus' death has given the great gift of Redemption.  That is unconditional love in action, and all you are required to do is accept Jesus in your life.  So, no strings.

Accepting Jesus as God is a string.

Absolutely agree.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 06:56:22 AM by Rhiannon »

BashfulAnthony

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Unconditional love
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2015, 11:47:11 AM »
Gabriella,

A thought.  I am interested to know what the Qur'an says about love.  The New Testament is very specific, love being the guiding principle.  Unconditional love for your fellow man is not an explicit teaching of the Qur'an.  Or, if it is, it is not prominent.  If you are a Muslim, please suggest some verses, but please limit it to the actual Qur'an.
I don't think the Quran advocates unconditional love for your fellow man - I could be wrong but my impression from reading the Quran is that it doesn't emphasise love - it emphasises doing good deeds, being kind, merciful, humble and just - but I don't think there is any requirement for unconditional love. So people forgive others as an act of mercy or compassion or by being humble enough to be aware of their own failings because that is considered good and also out of love for Allah.

I have to say - the whole unconditional love thing doesn't really do anything for me.


May I ask why?
I am not sure if my reason makes any sense but I think it is because I don't value love unless I have to earn it through words or deeds. I find it unfathomable that someone should love me regardless of how I act. Also I don't think I have a capacity to love unconditionally. Even as a parent, I have a maternal instinct, whereby I would protect my children from harm without worrying about the cost to me, but I am not sure I love them unconditionally - not sure what loving them unconditionally means. I can imagine situations where I would want nothing to do with them unless they made amends e.g. if they deliberately and cruelly hurt someone else. 

I suppose it depends on the definition of love. If it is defined as just recognising someone as a fellow human being, wishing someone well without any depth to it, I guess I am ok with that.

Jesus is quite explicit:  : 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind, and your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these:  Mark 12:31

And all people are our neighbours.

In the Good Samaritan , Jesus explained that we should consider all the people of the world to be our "neighbours." The Jews and Samaritans were peoples of a different race, different nationality, and rival religions. They had despised each other for hundreds of years and did not even speak. But, as we know, in the parable, a Samaritan man stopped to help an injured Jewish man and spent his time and money to give him the best care he possibly could. In the conclusion of the parable, Jesus says to, "Go and do thou likewise."
Further more, enemies are neighbours, too, hard though it may be to accept that.  Just as God loves all His people, so should we. Jesus calls us to extend our love even to our enemies!  "You have heard it said, in times of old, "Love your neighbour and hate your enemy." But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the unjust, too. If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even corrupt tax-collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else?  But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Paul said that Christian love is the greatest and most essential of all the spiritual gifts. Even faith is worthless without love: "If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."
Paul summed up Love in this famous passage:   "Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end... And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

The Christian message is about love, all-encompassing love. It's a difficult ask, we are only human;  but if you do not aim high, you will never reach the heights.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:48:02 PM by Rhiannon »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Rhiannon

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Unconditional love
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2015, 11:49:26 AM »
Gabriella,

A thought.  I am interested to know what the Qur'an says about love.  The New Testament is very specific, love being the guiding principle.  Unconditional love for your fellow man is not an explicit teaching of the Qur'an.  Or, if it is, it is not prominent.  If you are a Muslim, please suggest some verses, but please limit it to the actual Qur'an.
I don't think the Quran advocates unconditional love for your fellow man - I could be wrong but my impression from reading the Quran is that it doesn't emphasise love - it emphasises doing good deeds, being kind, merciful, humble and just - but I don't think there is any requirement for unconditional love. So people forgive others as an act of mercy or compassion or by being humble enough to be aware of their own failings because that is considered good and also out of love for Allah.

I have to say - the whole unconditional love thing doesn't really do anything for me.


May I ask why?
I am not sure if my reason makes any sense but I think it is because I don't value love unless I have to earn it through words or deeds. I find it unfathomable that someone should love me regardless of how I act. Also I don't think I have a capacity to love unconditionally. Even as a parent, I have a maternal instinct, whereby I would protect my children from harm without worrying about the cost to me, but I am not sure I love them unconditionally - not sure what loving them unconditionally means. I can imagine situations where I would want nothing to do with them unless they made amends e.g. if they deliberately and cruelly hurt someone else. 

I suppose it depends on the definition of love. If it is defined as just recognising someone as a fellow human being, wishing someone well without any depth to it, I guess I am ok with that.

I'm not sure anyone knows what is meant by 'love', unconditional or otherwise. I think in practice it really does mean what Gabriella describes - respect, compassion, non-harm.

I think I will always love my children unconditionally but it is possible that they could act in ways that would mean I wouldn't like them much, or want them around. And vice versa.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:47:26 PM by Rhiannon »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Unconditional love
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2015, 12:00:50 PM »
Paul said that Christian love is the greatest and most essential of all the spiritual gifts. Even faith is worthless without love: "If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."
Paul summed up Love in this famous passage:   "Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end... And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

The Christian message is about love, all-encompassing love. It's a difficult ask, we are only human;  but if you do not aim high, you will never reach the heights.
All very nice. Do not really get the bit about "bearing all things"  - is it to be borne in order to earn some kind of heavenly reward or is it to be borne just because that code of conduct is what Christianity teaches? And what does "bearing all things" mean? If someone was hurting me or someone else, am I bearing it if I do something to prevent them being able to continue causing someone pain - if I could do it through dialogue great, but if not I would use force.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:47:00 PM by Rhiannon »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

BashfulAnthony

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Unconditional love
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2015, 12:05:55 PM »
Paul said that Christian love is the greatest and most essential of all the spiritual gifts. Even faith is worthless without love: "If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."
Paul summed up Love in this famous passage:   "Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end... And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

The Christian message is about love, all-encompassing love. It's a difficult ask, we are only human;  but if you do not aim high, you will never reach the heights.
All very nice. Do not really get the bit about "bearing all things"  - is it to be borne in order to earn some kind of heavenly reward or is it to be borne just because that code of conduct is what Christianity teaches? And what does "bearing all things" mean? If someone was hurting me or someone else, am I bearing it if I do something to prevent them being able to continue causing someone pain - if I could do it through dialogue great, but if not I would use force.

To love is to do so whatever the faults of others - and we all have plenty - and not merely love those who appeal to you personally.   I said it is not easy; but you need to at least try. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:46:41 PM by Rhiannon »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Unconditional love
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2015, 12:09:40 PM »
Paul said that Christian love is the greatest and most essential of all the spiritual gifts. Even faith is worthless without love: "If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."
Paul summed up Love in this famous passage:   "Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end... And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

The Christian message is about love, all-encompassing love. It's a difficult ask, we are only human;  but if you do not aim high, you will never reach the heights.
All very nice. Do not really get the bit about "bearing all things"  - is it to be borne in order to earn some kind of heavenly reward or is it to be borne just because that code of conduct is what Christianity teaches? And what does "bearing all things" mean? If someone was hurting me or someone else, am I bearing it if I do something to prevent them being able to continue causing someone pain - if I could do it through dialogue great, but if not I would use force.

To love is to do so whatever the faults of others - and we all have plenty - and not merely love those who appeal to you personally.   I said it is not easy; but you need to at least try.
Yes - just trying to get a handle on the Christian concept of love. Can I love the mugger while I am also bashing him over the head to get him away from the pensioner? Or is love only love if you just plead with them to stop and call the police?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:43:30 PM by Rhiannon »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

BashfulAnthony

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Unconditional Love
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2015, 12:12:12 PM »
Paul said that Christian love is the greatest and most essential of all the spiritual gifts. Even faith is worthless without love: "If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."
Paul summed up Love in this famous passage:   "Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end... And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

The Christian message is about love, all-encompassing love. It's a difficult ask, we are only human;  but if you do not aim high, you will never reach the heights.
All very nice. Do not really get the bit about "bearing all things"  - is it to be borne in order to earn some kind of heavenly reward or is it to be borne just because that code of conduct is what Christianity teaches? And what does "bearing all things" mean? If someone was hurting me or someone else, am I bearing it if I do something to prevent them being able to continue causing someone pain - if I could do it through dialogue great, but if not I would use force.

To love is to do so whatever the faults of others - and we all have plenty - and not merely love those who appeal to you personally.   I said it is not easy; but you need to at least try.
Yes - just trying to get a handle on the Christian concept of love. Can I love the mugger while I am also bashing him over the head to get him away from the pensioner? Or is love only love if you just plead with them to stop and call the police?

You can abhor evil behaviour, and do your utmost to defend against it;  but that does not mean you have to hate.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:43:08 PM by Rhiannon »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Unconditional Love
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2015, 12:23:57 PM »
Paul said that Christian love is the greatest and most essential of all the spiritual gifts. Even faith is worthless without love: "If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."
Paul summed up Love in this famous passage:   "Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end... And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

The Christian message is about love, all-encompassing love. It's a difficult ask, we are only human;  but if you do not aim high, you will never reach the heights.
All very nice. Do not really get the bit about "bearing all things"  - is it to be borne in order to earn some kind of heavenly reward or is it to be borne just because that code of conduct is what Christianity teaches? And what does "bearing all things" mean? If someone was hurting me or someone else, am I bearing it if I do something to prevent them being able to continue causing someone pain - if I could do it through dialogue great, but if not I would use force.

To love is to do so whatever the faults of others - and we all have plenty - and not merely love those who appeal to you personally.   I said it is not easy; but you need to at least try.
Yes - just trying to get a handle on the Christian concept of love. Can I love the mugger while I am also bashing him over the head to get him away from the pensioner? Or is love only love if you just plead with them to stop and call the police?

You can abhor evil behaviour, and do your utmost to defend against it;  but that does not mean you have to hate.
As we have no definition of "hate" versus "abhor evil behaviour" I will just say that there are lots of Muslims who abhor the behaviour of ISIS militants. I am pretty sure that if you speak to some of the Muslim victims of ISIS they would say they hate ISIS militants, not just their behaviour. I won't venture to guess whether the Christian victims of ISIS militants abhor the behaviour of those militants or hate them.   
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:42:43 PM by Rhiannon »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Rhiannon

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Re: Unconditional love
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2015, 08:05:31 PM »
I don't have any expectations as to the sexuality of my children, or whether they marry or have children at all.

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Re: Unconditional love
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2015, 08:09:42 PM »
I think that love is far more encompassing than some here would think.  Yes, it involves caring for others, protecting others, treating others as you would want to be treated - but it also involves discipline and punishment.  A loving parent will punish a child who breaks the boundaries - either society's ones or the family's.  But the important thing is that discipline is within a caring and protective context.  That is as much to do with unconditional love as anything else.
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Re: Unconditional love
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2015, 08:14:51 PM »
I think it is impossible for human beings to love everyone unconditionally.

However, I do think we can show it in limited ways.

For example when our children don't live up to our expectations.

They are gay for example, I would love my son and if he were gay it would make no difference, he is still my son.

If he fails in what I expect him to be. Unconditional love is accepting of others no matter what.

It's going the extra mile, it's being there for someone in a rough patch.

It's accepting them as they are.

Loving them for who they are, not who you think they should be.

For a god to show unconditional love, I would expect that level of caring.
I'm not sure that that is the level of caring the Christian God shows - if anything that is below his level.  As I've said in my previous post, the aspect of discipline can't be ignored.  Unconditional love will point out when failings or mistakes occur, and if necessary allow the person to suffer the consequences, but without dismissing the person or saying that they are no longer acceptable.  That is why Christianity talks about hating the wrong-doing but not the wrong-doer.  I accept that there are some here who find that concept hard to accept, but it is what the idea of restorative justice is based on.
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Re: Unconditional love
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2015, 08:16:59 PM »
Gabriella,

A thought.  I am interested to know what the Qur'an says about love.  The New Testament is very specific, love being the guiding principle.  Unconditional love for your fellow man is not an explicit teaching of the Qur'an.  Or, if it is, it is not prominent.  If you are a Muslim, please suggest some verses, but please limit it to the actual Qur'an.
I don't think the Quran advocates unconditional love for your fellow man - I could be wrong but my impression from reading the Quran is that it doesn't emphasise love - it emphasises doing good deeds, being kind, merciful, humble and just - but I don't think there is any requirement for unconditional love. So people forgive others as an act of mercy or compassion or by being humble enough to be aware of their own failings because that is considered good and also out of love for Allah.

I have to say - the whole unconditional love thing doesn't really do anything for me.


May I ask why?

I like the whole unconditional love thing, but don't find it in Christianity either.

There are conditions to being saved.

If there were none, that's unconditional and it wouldn't exclude people of any faith or none.

Rose, Jesus' death has given the great gift of Redemption.  That is unconditional love in action, and all you are required to do is accept Jesus in your life.  So, no strings.

Accepting Jesus as God is a string.

Having a faith is not a string!
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Unconditional love
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2015, 08:23:01 PM »
Gabriella,

A thought.  I am interested to know what the Qur'an says about love.  The New Testament is very specific, love being the guiding principle.  Unconditional love for your fellow man is not an explicit teaching of the Qur'an.  Or, if it is, it is not prominent.  If you are a Muslim, please suggest some verses, but please limit it to the actual Qur'an.
I don't think the Quran advocates unconditional love for your fellow man - I could be wrong but my impression from reading the Quran is that it doesn't emphasise love - it emphasises doing good deeds, being kind, merciful, humble and just - but I don't think there is any requirement for unconditional love. So people forgive others as an act of mercy or compassion or by being humble enough to be aware of their own failings because that is considered good and also out of love for Allah.

I have to say - the whole unconditional love thing doesn't really do anything for me.


May I ask why?

I like the whole unconditional love thing, but don't find it in Christianity either.

There are conditions to being saved.

If there were none, that's unconditional and it wouldn't exclude people of any faith or none.

Rose, Jesus' death has given the great gift of Redemption.  That is unconditional love in action, and all you are required to do is accept Jesus in your life.  So, no strings.

Accepting Jesus as God is a string.

Having a faith is not a string!

No, but having to believe a certain thing is and let's face it, Christianity lays down exactly what you have to believe.

We always have a choice.  Jesus never said you have to believe:  He was most scrupulous in leaving the decisions to personal choice.  No, you are wrong.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Hope

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Re: Unconditional love
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2015, 08:25:20 PM »
Accepting Jesus as God is a string.
If that's the case, life as a whole is a string, in so far as each of us have a world-view that informs our lives and our actions.  We each believe that our world-view is the correct one.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Unconditional love
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2015, 08:25:50 PM »
Gabriella,

A thought.  I am interested to know what the Qur'an says about love.  The New Testament is very specific, love being the guiding principle.  Unconditional love for your fellow man is not an explicit teaching of the Qur'an.  Or, if it is, it is not prominent.  If you are a Muslim, please suggest some verses, but please limit it to the actual Qur'an.
I don't think the Quran advocates unconditional love for your fellow man - I could be wrong but my impression from reading the Quran is that it doesn't emphasise love - it emphasises doing good deeds, being kind, merciful, humble and just - but I don't think there is any requirement for unconditional love. So people forgive others as an act of mercy or compassion or by being humble enough to be aware of their own failings because that is considered good and also out of love for Allah.

I have to say - the whole unconditional love thing doesn't really do anything for me.


May I ask why?

I like the whole unconditional love thing, but don't find it in Christianity either.

There are conditions to being saved.

If there were none, that's unconditional and it wouldn't exclude people of any faith or none.

Rose, Jesus' death has given the great gift of Redemption.  That is unconditional love in action, and all you are required to do is accept Jesus in your life.  So, no strings.

Accepting Jesus as God is a string.

Having a faith is not a string!

No, but having to believe a certain thing is and let's face it, Christianity lays down exactly what you have to believe.

We always have a choice.  Jesus never said you have to believe:  He was most scrupulous in leaving the decisions to personal choice.  No, you are wrong.

 It's not unconditional.

The condition is in what you have to believe.

I keepsaying,you don't have to believe anything.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Unconditional love
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2015, 08:31:07 PM »
Gabriella,

A thought.  I am interested to know what the Qur'an says about love.  The New Testament is very specific, love being the guiding principle.  Unconditional love for your fellow man is not an explicit teaching of the Qur'an.  Or, if it is, it is not prominent.  If you are a Muslim, please suggest some verses, but please limit it to the actual Qur'an.
I don't think the Quran advocates unconditional love for your fellow man - I could be wrong but my impression from reading the Quran is that it doesn't emphasise love - it emphasises doing good deeds, being kind, merciful, humble and just - but I don't think there is any requirement for unconditional love. So people forgive others as an act of mercy or compassion or by being humble enough to be aware of their own failings because that is considered good and also out of love for Allah.

I have to say - the whole unconditional love thing doesn't really do anything for me.


May I ask why?

I like the whole unconditional love thing, but don't find it in Christianity either.

There are conditions to being saved.

If there were none, that's unconditional and it wouldn't exclude people of any faith or none.

Rose, Jesus' death has given the great gift of Redemption.  That is unconditional love in action, and all you are required to do is accept Jesus in your life.  So, no strings.

Accepting Jesus as God is a string.

Having a faith is not a string!

No, but having to believe a certain thing is and let's face it, Christianity lays down exactly what you have to believe.

We always have a choice.  Jesus never said you have to believe:  He was most scrupulous in leaving the decisions to personal choice.  No, you are wrong.

 It's not unconditional.

The condition is in what you have to believe.

I keepsaying,you don't have to believe anything.

Most Christians seem to believe that you do have to accept Jesus as your saviour, which involves belief.

I simply don't accept having a belief in something can be considered as having a string attached. 
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Unconditional love
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2015, 08:50:40 PM »

We always have a choice.  Jesus never said you have to believe:  He was most scrupulous in leaving the decisions to personal choice.  No, you are wrong.
According to the Gospels Jesus was absolutely explicit about arrogating to himself the right to declare himself the sole and single way to God. You know the passages I'm alluding to, I don't need to reference them in detail. As I had cause to say to Alan Burns (on his theistic terms he will, if he's wrong about his chosen religion) very recently, this is a "choice" but the sort of "choice" associated with the Kray twins and the Richardson gang and every thug, hoodlum and mobster there has ever been - do this or else, and I don't mean in an abstract consequences sort of way (Drinking too much will feel great tonight but will end up in a hangover tomorrow) but in the clear threat of deliberately and consciously-inflicted pain by an agent.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 09:19:29 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Unconditional love
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2015, 10:36:12 PM »

We always have a choice.  Jesus never said you have to believe:  He was most scrupulous in leaving the decisions to personal choice.  No, you are wrong.
According to the Gospels Jesus was absolutely explicit about arrogating to himself the right to declare himself the sole and single way to God. You know the passages I'm alluding to, I don't need to reference them in detail. As I had cause to say to Alan Burns (on his theistic terms he will, if he's wrong about his chosen religion) very recently, this is a "choice" but the sort of "choice" associated with the Kray twins and the Richardson gang and every thug, hoodlum and mobster there has ever been - do this or else, and I don't mean in an abstract consequences sort of way (Drinking too much will feel great tonight but will end up in a hangover tomorrow) but in the clear threat of deliberately and consciously-inflicted pain by an agent.

Shaker, don't be ridiculous  -  it's the first time I've heard Jesus and His teaching compared to the Krays.  Excuse me, whilst I go and vomit!     :(
« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 05:33:32 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Hope

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Re: Unconditional love
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2015, 08:22:43 AM »
According to the Gospels Jesus was absolutely explicit about arrogating to himself the right to declare himself the sole and single way to God. You know the passages I'm alluding to, I don't need to reference them in detail.
Shaker, I think that you do need to reference them in detail since, to my knowledge, Jesus never 'arrogates to himself the right to declare himself the sole and single way to God', unless you are suggesting that the only way to God is to believe in God (after all, Jesus is God in human form).  If anyone arrogates to himself the right to declare that Jesus is the sole and single way to God, the Gospels make it pretty clear that that person would be God.


Quote
As I had cause to say to Alan Burns (on his theistic terms he will, if he's wrong about his chosen religion) very recently, this is a "choice" but the sort of "choice" associated with the Kray twins and the Richardson gang and every thug, hoodlum and mobster there has ever been - do this or else, and I don't mean in an abstract consequences sort of way (Drinking too much will feel great tonight but will end up in a hangover tomorrow) but in the clear threat of deliberately and consciously-inflicted pain by an agent.
I hadn't realised that the Krays or the Richardsons had offered salvation to humanity as a gift, Shakes.

Perhaps you ought to have another go at reading the Gospels, and with an open mind this time.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Rhiannon

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Re: Unconditional love
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2015, 08:30:47 AM »
Paul said that Christian love is the greatest and most essential of all the spiritual gifts. Even faith is worthless without love: "If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."
Paul summed up Love in this famous passage:   "Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end... And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

The Christian message is about love, all-encompassing love. It's a difficult ask, we are only human;  but if you do not aim high, you will never reach the heights.
All very nice. Do not really get the bit about "bearing all things"  - is it to be borne in order to earn some kind of heavenly reward or is it to be borne just because that code of conduct is what Christianity teaches? And what does "bearing all things" mean? If someone was hurting me or someone else, am I bearing it if I do something to prevent them being able to continue causing someone pain - if I could do it through dialogue great, but if not I would use force.

To love is to do so whatever the faults of others - and we all have plenty - and not merely love those who appeal to you personally.   I said it is not easy; but you need to at least try.
Yes - just trying to get a handle on the Christian concept of love. Can I love the mugger while I am also bashing him over the head to get him away from the pensioner? Or is love only love if you just plead with them to stop and call the police?

No, in the instance you describe the loving thing to do would be to bash the mugger. Firstly, Christianity would say that the pensioner deserves the greater compassion in that moment. Secondly, you would be potentially saving the mugger from the greater sin of taking life. Killing the mugger would be regrettable but generally it is accepted that in order to protect life sometimes lives are taken. And if the mugger survives the bang on the head he gets carted off to clink where he can't mug any more old people and maybe gets rehabilitated.

So it's fine.