Unconditional love

[Hope]

I like the whole unconditional love thing, but don't find it in Christianity either.

There are conditions to being saved.

If there were none, that's unconditional and it wouldn't exclude people of any faith or none.

I find it surprising that you don't find unconditional love in Christianity, Rose.  After all, Jesus taught that he had died for all humanity.  This offer of salvation was to be open to everyone.  It wouldn't only be available to a particular people group, or to people who had done certain things to earn it.It ws to be available to all.  You say that there are conditions to being saved - well, yes there is one.  Accept that the free gift is for you.  That is very different to whether or not love is unconditional. 

I assume that you agree that most parents have an unconditional love for their child.  Does it cease to exist, or at least to be unconditional when that child decides to walk out on the family and cuts all ties with that parent?  Of course it doesn't.  It's unconditionality isn't reliant on the acceptance or otherwise of itself.

[Hope]

I think it is impossible for human beings to love everyone unconditionally.

However, I do think we can show it in limited ways.

For example when our children don't live up to our expectations.

They are gay for example, I would love my son and if he were gay it would make no difference, he is still my son.

If he fails in what I expect him to be. Unconditional love is accepting of others no matter what.

It's going the extra mile, it's being there for someone in a rough patch.

It's accepting them as they are.

Loving them for who they are, not who you think they should be.

For a god to show unconditional love, I would expect that level of caring.

Your list of 'conditions' for the existence of unconditional love is remarkably similar to what God does for humanity.  Following your claim in your post #4 that it doesn't exist in Christianity, you have now outlined exactly how it exists in Christianity.

[Shaker]

Your list of 'conditions' for the existence of unconditional love is remarkably similar to what God does for humanity.

And your evidence for this assertion is ... ?

[Gordon]

Your list of 'conditions' for the existence of unconditional love is remarkably similar to what God does for humanity.  Following your claim in your post #4 that it doesn't exist in Christianity, you have now outlined exactly how it exists in Christianity.

Since Christianity is the invention of people why does that surprise you?

[Hope]

Your list of 'conditions' for the existence of unconditional love is remarkably similar to what God does for humanity.

And your evidence for this assertion is ... ?

Sorry not to have responded earlier; I tried to respond about an hour and a half ago, only to be told that this thread was not open to me!!  It is now, so let's give you a response.  Rose has made three posts in one of which she says that she doesn't find the idea of unconditional love within Christianity Post #4.  A couple of posts later # 7 she states that "Accepting Jesus as God is a string", thus rendering the idea of unconditional love within Christianity void.  Then, two pages later (post #60) she outlines a series of conditions which, when taken together, she seems to indicate are marks of 'unconditional love'; marks which when read in the way she sets them out are remarkably similar to the marks of unconditional love that Jesus teaches about in the Bible.  So, to answer your question, I find the evidence in the very posts that Rose uses to try to prove that unconditional love doesn't occur in Christianity, taken in comparison with what is written in the Gospels.

[Shaker]

Ah. No evidence, then. Why didn't you just say?

[Hope]

Ah. No evidence, then. Why didn't you just say?

Sorry, I clearly don't have the same definition of evidence, as you Shaker.  If someone like Rose is able to come to a conclusion from a set of evidence that she outlines in the way she does, I believe that that same evidence can be used to counter her argument.

I notice that you often avoid getting into these deeper arguments, choosing to snipe around the edges instead.  I believe that that is a marker of weak argumentation. 

[Shaker]

Sorry, I clearly don't have the same definition of evidence, as you Shaker.

Clearly. I like my definition of evidence to deliver some evidence; you don't.

I notice that you often avoid getting into these deeper arguments, choosing to snipe around the edges instead.

Many of these discussions become unnecessarily complicated and convoluted; as I said only a day or two ago, I strive for clarity in all things.

I believe that that is a marker of weak argumentation. 

That'll be of a piece with the poverty and groundlessness of your other beliefs.

[Hope]

Since Christianity is the invention of people why does that surprise you?

An your evidence for that is ...?

[Hope]

Sorry, I clearly don't have the same definition of evidence, as you Shaker.

Clearly. I like my definition of evidence to deliver some evidence; you don't.

Sorry, my definition provides no less evidence than yours; just evidence that you don't accept as such.  That is not my fault.

[Shaker]

Sorry, my definition provides no less evidence than yours

Then demonstrate this to be the case.

[Gordon]

Since Christianity is the invention of people why does that surprise you?

An your evidence for that is ...?

In this case stories and books - its people all the way down.

Those people who make up stories, those people who tell stories or gather information (for non-fiction stuff), those people who listen to stories, those people who write these stories (or other information) down, those people who produce the hard copy, those people who read the hard copy - and, finally, in some cases annoyingly, there are those people who insist on telling other people what they should be thinking about what it all means.

As I said - people all the way down.

[floo]

Sorry, I clearly don't have the same definition of evidence, as you Shaker.

Clearly. I like my definition of evidence to deliver some evidence; you don't.

Sorry, my definition provides no less evidence than yours; just evidence that you don't accept as such.  That is not my fault.

You don't have anything which passes for evidence, as there is none, all you have is belief!

[Rhiannon]

BA

It is because if you don't hold it, the belief, you are excluded.
Therefore going to heaven excludes those who don't believe the right things.
Unconditional love excludes no one.

Unconditional love includes loving God... You cannot love God whom you do not see if you do not love your brother whom you can see.

Unconditional love is given and therefore if you love God you believe what he says.

God's love is NOT NOT NOT unconditional!

It is given on the condition that you do exactly what he says or he will smite the total crap out of you!

Sassy, you don't half talk a load of shite sometimes!, No, you do it most of the time!

And 'smite the total crap out of you' is not a load of the Brown stuff.

Jesus states that you will die ''in your own sins''.

Whatever that means!

Presumably not God's sin of torturing you just because he feels like it. Presumably your own sins do that because you've never given them to God to deal with.

But nothing happens unless God allow it?

So he allows the torturing.

Also I thought he died and took all the sin?

Well, yes because he is not prepared to violate our free will.

And yes we find the removal of the sins of the world within Christianity.

Does your final thought on what His death achieved give you comfort?

Why does it give you comfort to think that an innocent person suffered in your place? You're not a bad person. Wouldn't you rather deal with your own stuff honestly?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

BA

It is because if you don't hold it, the belief, you are excluded.
Therefore going to heaven excludes those who don't believe the right things.
Unconditional love excludes no one.

Unconditional love includes loving God... You cannot love God whom you do not see if you do not love your brother whom you can see.

Unconditional love is given and therefore if you love God you believe what he says.

God's love is NOT NOT NOT unconditional!

It is given on the condition that you do exactly what he says or he will smite the total crap out of you!

Sassy, you don't half talk a load of shite sometimes!, No, you do it most of the time!

And 'smite the total crap out of you' is not a load of the Brown stuff.

Jesus states that you will die ''in your own sins''.

Whatever that means!

Presumably not God's sin of torturing you just because he feels like it. Presumably your own sins do that because you've never given them to God to deal with.

But nothing happens unless God allow it?

So he allows the torturing.

Also I thought he died and took all the sin?

Well, yes because he is not prepared to violate our free will.

And yes we find the removal of the sins of the world within Christianity.

Does your final thought on what His death achieved give you comfort?

Why does it give you comfort to think that an innocent person suffered in your place? You're not a bad person. Wouldn't you rather deal with your own stuff honestly?

Aren't you trying to be the cosmic judge wishing, though well meaning to forgive your sins and tackle your personal inner life.

I'm sorry Rhiannon I'm sure you mean well but you are not the one.

Dealing with your own stuff? Let's transfer that to psychiatry...oh yes, sort yourself out.

Sometimes we need saving Rhiannon and people risk and sacrifice themselves I think they deserve a bit of gratitude.

[Hope]

You don't have anything which passes for evidence, as there is none, all you have is belief!

Sorry, Floo, but my believe is based on evidence; it may not fit the definition of naturalistic evidence so beloved by some here, but then - as I've already said - I don't believe that the laws of nature are the only laws that goven us and the universe in which we live.  You do, so naturally (no pun intended) you restrict everything to those parameters.

[Rhiannon]

Aren't you trying to be the cosmic judge wishing, though well meaning to forgive your sins and tackle your personal inner life.

I'm sorry Rhiannon I'm sure you mean well but you are not the one.

Dealing with your own stuff? Let's transfer that to psychiatry...oh yes, sort yourself out.

Sometimes we need saving Rhiannon and people risk and sacrifice themselves I think they deserve a bit of gratitude.

I don't judge myself or others as 'sinful'; all I can do is try to take a clear-eyed view of my own personal failings and deal with them as best I can. It's not about being well-meaning, it's about knowing that the buck stops with me. I screw up, I pay. That is the reality of it. There's nothing supernatural in the process.

Sort yourself out? Who is the psychiatric profession recommends that? Have I?

Of course we all need other people and we live in a world of heroes and sacrifice. But when it comes to the inner things, we have to be prepared to save ourselves; nobody can do it for us, although if we are lucky we will find the kind and steadfast to journey through it with us, even if we fall.  And I don't know why you think I am ungrateful to others, but none of that has anything to do with the myth of penal substitution.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Aren't you trying to be the cosmic judge wishing, though well meaning to forgive your sins and tackle your personal inner life.

I'm sorry Rhiannon I'm sure you mean well but you are not the one.

Dealing with your own stuff? Let's transfer that to psychiatry...oh yes, sort yourself out.

Sometimes we need saving Rhiannon and people risk and sacrifice themselves I think they deserve a bit of gratitude.

I don't judge myself or others as 'sinful'; all I can do is try to take a clear-eyed view of my own personal failings and deal with them as best I can. It's not about being well-meaning, it's about knowing that the buck stops with me. I screw up, I pay. That is the reality of it. There's nothing supernatural in the process.

Sort yourself out? Who is the psychiatric profession recommends that? Have I?

Of course we all need other people and we live in a world of heroes and sacrifice. But when it comes to the inner things, we have to be prepared to save ourselves; nobody can do it for us, although if we are lucky we will find the kind and steadfast to journey through it with us, even if we fall.  And I don't know why you think I am ungrateful to others, but none of that has anything to do with the myth of penal substitution.

DIY is popular at the moment and we risk, nay guarantee a bodged up job.

[Rhiannon]

How does believing in penal substitution help you to deal with your problems?

[floo]

You don't have anything which passes for evidence, as there is none, all you have is belief!

Sorry, Floo, but my believe is based on evidence; it may not fit the definition of naturalistic evidence so beloved by some here, but then - as I've already said - I don't believe that the laws of nature are the only laws that goven us and the universe in which we live.  You do, so naturally (no pun intended) you restrict everything to those parameters.

Hope your belief is not based on anything which is regarded as real evidence. There is no evidence there is anything else apart from the laws of nature to govern the universe, however much you wish to believe there is!

[BeRational]

You don't have anything which passes for evidence, as there is none, all you have is belief!

Sorry, Floo, but my believe is based on evidence; it may not fit the definition of naturalistic evidence so beloved by some here, but then - as I've already said - I don't believe that the laws of nature are the only laws that goven us and the universe in which we live.  You do, so naturally (no pun intended) you restrict everything to those parameters.

Then you do not have any evidence just assertions.

Why do you claim to have evidence when you don't.

[ekim]

How does believing in penal substitution help you to deal with your problems?

A good question.  Let's hope for a clear answer.

[2Corrie]

How does believing in penal substitution help you to deal with your problems?

Well I can't answer for Vlad, but it means that I can 'cast my burdens upon the Lord'.

[Nearly Sane]

How does believing in penal substitution help you to deal with your problems?

Well I can't answer for Vlad, but it means that I can 'cast my burdens upon the Lord'.

I think this is sort of missing the point, as you could insert the words 'artichoke pizza' for penal substitution and it wouldn't make any difference to the answer.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

How does believing in penal substitution help you to deal with your problems?

It's God taking the consequences of my alienation from him and alienation in general on himself.
Alienation damages the self and is eventually spiritually fatal leading a permanent state of alienation.
God takes the consequence of this on himself.

I can now enjoy a relationship with God.