This just seems to illustrate the gulf between our respective feelings and attitudes, 2Corrie.
I would feel ashamed to let someone else take upon themselves what I consider to be instances of my wrong doing, however willing they might be to do so. It would leave me in a very unsatisfactory and unhappy state. I would far rather try to take responsibility for my own failings and try to rectify my own faults, often with the support, of course, of understanding people whose help I would welcome and, indeed, in certain circumstances, would need.
I see no gulf between what you are describing (and what Floo often says) with what 2Corrie and others here say, enki. The one is how we resolve issues between us and one or more oher human being - and outlines much the same as any Christian would do in that situation. However since, as humans we are also in relationship with God, it's not simply a human/human interaction; God is part and parcel of the equation. Now, how would you try to repair that relationship? Would you feel that simply 'trying' to do something would suffice?
Remember that the death and resurrection of Jesus is far more than simply an act of forgiveness by God; it is a marker to say that death need no long hold any fear for us.
For me, it also means that I find resolving issues with other humans that much easier, as I know that having been forgiven my mistakes in the merciful way God does, I need to show grace and mercy to those who have damaged relationships with me (and that often includes my own acts as much as anyone else's.)
I can fully understand why people who have only ever lived and grown up in the West which, by definition, no longer deal in animal and blood sacrifice as a result of the influence of Christianity; they don't see the underlying meaning. Ironically, it took me living and working in the Indian subcontinent to see the symbolism more clearly.
Nope,
You've got the wrong end of the stick, Hope. My point was specific as regards penal substitution.
Corrie was saying that penal substitution means 'casting my burdens upon the Lord'. That was what I was replying to, and, I repeat, I would feel most unhappy to 'cast my burdens' upon anyone, including 'the Lord' if I actually believed he existed.
However, as regards your reply, the gulf shows clearly again when you suggest that we 'are also in relationship with God', which I clearly am not. Thus, all of what you then say simply illustrates that gulf. I have no relationship to repair. I am responsible for my own 'burdens' insofar as they are of my own doing. God is, for me, not part and parcel of the equation. Trying to do something constructive to the best of my abilities, and often with help, is the only way that I can progress, as I see it.
I do not see the supposed death and resurrection of Jesus as any form of forgiveness or atonement, or even a realization that I am sinful in contrast to the supposed death of an innocent man, at all. I do not fear death, only the manner of my going, and I certainly do not see the supposed death and resurrection of Jesus as any marker at all.
For me, the only forgiveness I seek is from those whom I have wronged, which of course doesn't include a God in whom I do not believe.
As regards your last paragraph, I think you are wrong if you think that I don't appreciate the underlying meanings of sacrifice. To understand something doesn't mean that one has to accept something.
As I said to 2Corrie, and now to you, what you have said seems to illustrate the gulf between our respective feelings and attitudes.
