Unconditional love

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So, would you say that most people have never ... lied, failed to fulfill a promise, spoken spitefully, done something that they had promised themselves, and others, that they would never do again, ... ?

Of course they have. That makes them pretty bog-standard, ordinary human beings - you see the same kinds of behaviours in chimps and bonobos,

Bonobos?. Try dry humping everybody you meet instead of just shaking hands and you'll soon get a lesson from the judge in what constitutes moral terpitude.

Chimps, they chuck there own shit around when angry......come to think of it Shaker there could be a parallel there between you and chimps.

[Hope]

Hope just doesn't get it, does he!

I get it quite well, Floo.  I 'get it' that you and Shaker both exhibit shaky argumentation skills, especially when it comes to your respective philosophies of life.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Some idiot Christians equate a small transgression, or something which isn't wrong like homosexuality as being as 'sinful' as murder or child sexual abuse.  They really need to wake up and smell the coffee!

You have to remember that that they have the supposed central figure of their religion as a model for this - a man with so little sense of perspective that merely eyeing up a right tasty bit of brisket from afar is morally equivalent to doing the do.

It renders void any sense of moral perspective whatsoever.

No, moral subjectivity does that

[Shaker]

Some idiot Christians equate a small transgression, or something which isn't wrong like homosexuality as being as 'sinful' as murder or child sexual abuse.  They really need to wake up and smell the coffee!

You have to remember that that they have the supposed central figure of their religion as a model for this - a man with so little sense of perspective that merely eyeing up a right tasty bit of brisket is morally equivalent to doing the do.

It's unfortunate for your argument Shaker that this has cropped up

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/11815224/Ashley-Madison-hack-how-many-British-users-did-adultery-site-really-have.html

Now what was that about 'breach of trust'?

Why is that unfortunate for my argument? You forgot to say.

[Shaker]

Hope just doesn't get it, does he!

No, but you have to remember that he labours under any number of delusions and woeful critical thinking skills (just look how often he wheels out the negative proof fallacy - it's practically every day that passes. Indeed, he's just done so again) which will be given the thorough intellectual raping of a lifetime they so eminently deserve as soon as I'm back on the PC rather than on my phone.

[Shaker]

Good old Shaker, since he can't cope with the argument he introduces a red herring.

Which is what, exactly?

However, to satisfy you Shaker, the Bible makes it clear ...

This is supposed to satisfy me, is it? Why on earth are you even thinking of citing the Bible to an atheist and (as Vlad would be the second to tell you) anti-theist?

Where in the Bible does it even suggest that the animal kindom has to believe in Jesus, and his saving grace?

The reference to chimps and bonobos was in parenthesis, indicated as such by being bracketed by dashes, so it would have been apparent to any normally intelligent reader that I was referring to human beings in the context of ordinary human behaviours exhibited by the majority of that species every single day. Take the parenthetical part out if it makes it easier for you to follow; it now reads:

That makes them pretty bog-standard, ordinary human beings, not factory-damaged, inherently tainted defects until and unless they claim to believe in a raft of ludicrous claims about magic SuperJew.

I trust that that's simpler for you. Nevertheless: humans are members of the animal kingdom. Those members of it are told as much in the New Testament, passim.

OK, you can choose to bgelieve that

No, I can't. I can't choose my beliefs. I can only believe what presents itself to my reason as believable, based on evidence, experience and logic.

but where is the evidence to support your belief?

I knew you wouldn't let me down with your beloved negative proof fallacy!

He had the choice to make robots of his human creation or to give them free will, to do as they pleased.  He decided the latter, which meant that he satisfied your point (c).  Aren't you glad that he did, thus allowing you to choose the position you hold in this regard?

Assertion, assertion, assertiony assertion, with the emphasis very much on the ass (which you have to be to believe this crap).

[Shaker]

So, you're an ancestor-worshipper, or at best, a parent-worshipper.       Or are you saying that you conceived yourself, and gave yourself the abilities that you have (not sure that you did very well in the argumentation stakes here, by the way)?   

No, I'm saying that contrary to your assertion that there was a being who created me, I'm stating that there were two of them. They're usually known as parents.

[floo]

Hope just doesn't get it, does he!

I get it quite well, Floo.  I 'get it' that you and Shaker both exhibit shaky argumentation skills, especially when it comes to your respective philosophies of life.

You have no argument at all if your efforts on this forum are any indication!

[Shaker]

Hope just doesn't get it, does he!

I get it quite well, Floo.  I 'get it' that you and Shaker both exhibit shaky argumentation skills, especially when it comes to your respective philosophies of life.

You have no argument at all if your efforts on this forum are any indication!

Indeed. Hopeless is to rational thought and sound argumentation as Churchill was to Woodbines, but hey; he's good for target practice on a Sunday afternoon.

[Rhiannon]

It trivialises evil to say that you and I are as fallen as a child molester or serial killer.

Does it, Rhi?  Imagine that, following a number of things going missing in your home, you discover that their disappearance has been the work of your child, dspite their adamant denials that they have been involved.  OK, s/he hasn't murdered anyone, hasn't abused anyone - or has she?  Hasn't she abused your trust and your love?

Don't talk nonsense. Do you really think I'd feel the same about my child stealing from me as I would if they committed the worst kind of crimes? Actually if they stole from me I'd be mortified that something had happened that made them need to steal and they hadn't felt able to talk to me about it.

How petty you make your God sound.

[Shaker]

Don't talk nonsense.

Too late was the cry!

[Hope]

Don't talk nonsense. ... if they stole from me I'd be mortified that something had happened that made them need to steal and they hadn't felt able to talk to me about it.

Isn't a feeling of mortification of this sort perhaps the worst form of feeling?  It would seem, to me, to include disappointment, questioning why (as you've outlined in your post), anger, perhaps even revulsion.  In fact, wouldn't you feel much the same in regard to another child's action along the lines I set out in my post #313.

[Hope]

No, I'm saying that contrary to your assertion that there was a being who created me, I'm stating that there were two of them. They're usually known as parents.

Precisely, you are an ancestor- or at best, a parent-worshipper who 'worships his creator' (#328).

[Hope]

... (just look how often he wheels out the negative proof fallacy - it's practically every day that passes. Indeed, he's just done so again)...

Almost as often as you do, Shaker.  But then, I'm trying to learn from 2 masters of the skill.

[Shaker]

No, I'm saying that contrary to your assertion that there was a being who created me, I'm stating that there were two of them. They're usually known as parents.

Precisely, you are an ancestor- or at best, a parent-worshipper who 'worships his creator' (#328).

Oh dear

[Shaker]

... (just look how often he wheels out the negative proof fallacy - it's practically every day that passes. Indeed, he's just done so again)...

Almost as often as you do, Shaker.  But then, I'm trying to learn from 2 masters of the skill.

Do provide examples, with direct quotes and links, of where I've employed the negative proof fallacy/argument from-appeal to ignorance at all, let alone more often than you do.

[Rhiannon]

Don't talk nonsense. ... if they stole from me I'd be mortified that something had happened that made them need to steal and they hadn't felt able to talk to me about it.

Isn't a feeling of mortification of this sort perhaps the worst form of feeling?  It would seem, to me, to include disappointment, questioning why (as you've outlined in your post), anger, perhaps even revulsion.  In fact, wouldn't you feel much the same in regard to another child's action along the lines I set out in my post #313.

I'm sure most human parents will feel some or all of those in differing degrees, but not as much as if they discovered that their child was an abuser or rapist. But if you are saying that God would feel the same about both then you are turning god into a petty egotistical maniac.

[Shaker]

I'm sure most human parents will feel some or all of those in differing degrees, but not as much as if they discovered that their child was an abuser or rapist. But if you are saying that God would feel the same about both then you are turning god into a petty egotistical maniac.

This all seems perfectly normal to me Rhi; a parent will naturally feel disappointed that their child has stolen (whether from them personally or not), but not nearly as much as if that child was discovered to be, as you say, an abuser or rapist. Hope, for some bizarre, hysterical, melodramatic reason, thinks that the degree of disappointment would be the same. It's not egotistical mania; it's absolute and utter lunacy.

But then, remember that he has Biblical warrant for this in the recorded words of Jesus on adultery, for example.

[Rhiannon]

Vlad, are you trying the old 'winning an argument by mimicking in a silly voice' tactic?

It trivialises evil to say that you and I are as fallen as a child molester or serial killer.

It seems to me that all you've done is adopt a set of beliefs that still makes you feel shit about yourself, only now you get the satisfaction of thinking that everyone else is shit, too.

I don't know what you mean by being shit. That's your invention.

I think you are mistaking an inferiority felt with other people with our relationship with God who so loves us that he gives his only begotten son.....but even that is lost on us in our recast of it as some kind of manslaughter.

I don't know, Vlad. All I'm hearing from you is that once you felt judged, now you judge yourself and others. 

A loving parent doesn't make their children feel bad about themselves unless they are seriously screwed.

[Rhiannon]

I'm sure most human parents will feel some or all of those in differing degrees, but not as much as if they discovered that their child was an abuser or rapist. But if you are saying that God would feel the same about both then you are turning god into a petty egotistical maniac.

This all seems perfectly normal to me Rhi; a parent will naturally feel disappointed that their child has stolen (whether from them personally or not), but not nearly as much as if that child was discovered to be, as you say, an abuser or rapist. Hope, for some bizarre, hysterical, melodramatic reason, thinks that the degree of disappointment would be the same. It's not egotistical mania; it's absolute and utter lunacy.

But then, remember that he has Biblical warrant for this in the recorded words of Jesus on adultery, for example.

A girl I knew stole from her family and was severely punished for it. She was too scared to tell her dad she was stealing to pay off the kids bullying her at school. In that scenario as a parent the person I'd be disappointed in would be myself.

[Shaker]

Yeah

[Rhiannon]

And yet according to Hope and others God doesn't see any difference in the actions of rapists or murderers or petty thieves, let alone a child stealing through fear and a child stealing through the desire for a new pair of trainers. It's faith as an intellectual exercise driven by the small-mindedness of human beings rather than genuine compassion and concern, and it has led to so much injustice done in God's name, from the mistreatment of single mothers to women stuck in abusive marriages to the ongoing injustices against gay Christians.

[Shaker]

If you're expecting disagreement on any point, you've got the wrong chappy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

 All I'm hearing from you is that once you felt judged, now you judge yourself and others. 

Only God judges with accuracy Rhiannon. Judgment day is attended by us all. we are all judged.

How you react to that indicates your spiritual position. That's something I have no party to...nor want to.

[Shaker]

Only God judges with accuracy Rhiannon. Judgment day is attended by us all. we are all judged.

Does Alan Burns know you've got his Assertionatron?