A new level of evil?

[Owlswing]

No one has condoned it, so I suggest you apologise for stating that they have.

Apologise?

You must be joking - look back over the posts and find one that condemns the boys actions as anthing but "stupid".

And that isn't condoning it. Stop lying about people

Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you or your point of view is liar?

[Owlswing]

So why call this "a new level of evil?" as if this was potentially evil of a magnitude never witnessed before?

One HUGE evil plus a smaller (of whatever magnitude) evil = a greater (new) level of evil!

[Nearly Sane]

So why call this "a new level of evil?" as if this was potentially evil of a magnitude never witnessed before?

One HUGE evil plus a smaller (of whatever magnitude) evil = a greater (new) level of evil!

So that you have them lied about people on this thread means by your 'logic', you now own the new level of evil. Well done!

[Ricky Spanish]

So why call this "a new level of evil?" as if this was potentially evil of a magnitude never witnessed before?

One HUGE evil plus a smaller (of whatever magnitude) evil = a greater (new) level of evil!

So by their actions these boys are now responsible for the holocaust too?

[Rhiannon]

Matt, I'm sorry about your family. Because of how the Canada part of the site was used for the mass burning of bodies I do understand why you feel it is like a grave robbing. But there's nothing to suggest these boys were aware of that and meant any disrespect and I expect the same is true of the other tourists that try to take things home.

What happened at Auschwitz was truly evil but ignorance and stupidity are not evil on anything like the same scale. It isn't wise to diminish what evil really is, however hurt we are, because it still stalks humanity and we need to be clear when we see it.

[Nearly Sane]

No one has condoned it, so I suggest you apologise for stating that they have.

Apologise?

You must be joking - look back over the posts and find one that condemns the boys actions as anthing but "stupid".

And that isn't condoning it. Stop lying about people

Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you or your point of view is liar?

Oh dear, they aren't. Indeed I post frequently about the fact that people use the word too readily on here. But when people are lying, as you are here, or as Vlad did yesterday, I think you need to be picked up on it. No one on this thread has condoned the action. That you are not admitting that is a simple lie by you just makes the entirety of your position on this thread a befoulment.

[Rhiannon]

What Matt seems to be saying is that comp kids aren't above nicking a few things whereas private school kids piss on everyone else.

Which isn't exactly fair to either.

I may well have not put the point as well as I might - we are always  given to understand that these kind of schools only take in and put out the very best pupils, taught the highest standards of education and behaviiour.

And - to Hope - yes they got off with probabtion but the maximum sentence for what they did is, not 15, but 10 years imprisonment.

OK - I will, as above, agree that I put my point badly, about as badly as I possibly could, but the stolen artifacts are part of the memorial that is the Auschwitz museum and the people who took those items to Auschwitz died there; would all those who have made comments here condone the theft of items from a relatives coffin?

Remote as the possibility might be there is a chance, a slim one maybe, but a chance nevertheless, that any one of the items they picked up could have belonged to one of my family (Dutch Jews) who died there. 
 
But Hell! They are British schoolchildren so heaven forbid they should have done anything wrong - stupid yes - wrong no!

It was stupid and wrong but not 10years worth of wrong, they deserved a good telling off, yes;imprisonment, no.

Even if they had picked up something from one of your dead relatives, it wouldn't have changed anything that happened to them.

It isn't the same as grave robbing at all, these are "things" kept in a museum for people to look at.

It's not even as if those things were important to the people who wore them, they are just bits and pieces.

They are just little bits of left over debris from a tragic human event.

A button, a shoe, a child's teddy.

They are just reminders of the past, objects.

A button is only a button.

A sad reminder of the person who was wearing it. 

Lets keep it in proportion here.

Not quite, Rose - the Canada area in Auschwitz us regarded as a grave, it isn't like taking things from a display.

This is from the Telegraph report:

It appears the two removed items from an area of the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp called “Canada,” which, during the Second World War, was the site of a warehouse containing possession looted from the millions of victims claimed by the death camp.
As the Red Army closed in on the camp in 1945 the Germans torched the warehouse, and many of its possessions still lie buried in the soil.
At it contains the last physical evidence of a vast number of people who were reduced to nothing but ashes, Polish authorities have classified Canada as a cemetery and have left the site untouched although visitors are free to walk around it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/11693368/Two-Britons-arrested-at-Auschwitz-on-suspicion-of-stealing-items.html

[Owlswing]

So why call this "a new level of evil?" as if this was potentially evil of a magnitude never witnessed before?

One HUGE evil plus a smaller (of whatever magnitude) evil = a greater (new) level of evil!

So by their actions these boys are now responsible for the holocaust too?

Idiot! I said in "addition to" not "as well of"

[Owlswing]

What Matt seems to be saying is that comp kids aren't above nicking a few things whereas private school kids piss on everyone else.

Which isn't exactly fair to either.

I may well have not put the point as well as I might - we are always  given to understand that these kind of schools only take in and put out the very best pupils, taught the highest standards of education and behaviiour.

And - to Hope - yes they got off with probabtion but the maximum sentence for what they did is, not 15, but 10 years imprisonment.

OK - I will, as above, agree that I put my point badly, about as badly as I possibly could, but the stolen artifacts are part of the memorial that is the Auschwitz museum and the people who took those items to Auschwitz died there; would all those who have made comments here condone the theft of items from a relatives coffin?

Remote as the possibility might be there is a chance, a slim one maybe, but a chance nevertheless, that any one of the items they picked up could have belonged to one of my family (Dutch Jews) who died there. 
 
But Hell! They are British schoolchildren so heaven forbid they should have done anything wrong - stupid yes - wrong no!

It was stupid and wrong but not 10years worth of wrong, they deserved a good telling off, yes;imprisonment, no.

Even if they had picked up something from one of your dead relatives, it wouldn't have changed anything that happened to them.

It isn't the same as grave robbing at all, these are "things" kept in a museum for people to look at.

It's not even as if those things were important to the people who wore them, they are just bits and pieces.

They are just little bits of left over debris from a tragic human event.

A button, a shoe, a child's teddy.

They are just reminders of the past, objects.

A button is only a button.

A sad reminder of the person who was wearing it. 

Lets keep it in proportion here.

Not quite, Rose - the Canada area in Auschwitz us regarded as a grave, it isn't like taking things from a display.

This is from the Telegraph report:

It appears the two removed items from an area of the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp called “Canada,” which, during the Second World War, was the site of a warehouse containing possession looted from the millions of victims claimed by the death camp.
As the Red Army closed in on the camp in 1945 the Germans torched the warehouse, and many of its possessions still lie buried in the soil.
At it contains the last physical evidence of a vast number of people who were reduced to nothing but ashes, Polish authorities have classified Canada as a cemetery and have left the site untouched although visitors are free to walk around it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/11693368/Two-Britons-arrested-at-Auschwitz-on-suspicion-of-stealing-items.html

Now let's see if you get the same dismissive responses as I have!

I doubt it.

[Ricky Spanish]

So why call this "a new level of evil?" as if this was potentially evil of a magnitude never witnessed before?

One HUGE evil plus a smaller (of whatever magnitude) evil = a greater (new) level of evil!

So by their actions these boys are now responsible for the holocaust too?

Idiot! I said in "addition to" not "as well of"

So how do their actions compound that of the Nazis if they are only responsible for their actions?

[Nearly Sane]

What 'dismissive responses' have you received,NJS? And remember some if the responses you were complaining about gave been made by Rhiannon, so in your attack on them you are being dismissive of her response.

All people have sought to do is to argue that talking about this as a new level of evil plays down the holocaust, but what do you end up doing? Arguing that because Rhiannon won't be picked up (for not actually doing the same as you), that it is somehow all about you.

[Owlswing]

So why call this "a new level of evil?" as if this was potentially evil of a magnitude never witnessed before?

One HUGE evil plus a smaller (of whatever magnitude) evil = a greater (new) level of evil!

So by their actions these boys are now responsible for the holocaust too?

Idiot! I said in "addition to" not "as well of"

So how do their actions compound that of the Nazis if they are only responsible for their actions?

If you do not unbsderstand the principle of addition - go back to school and learn!

[Owlswing]

What 'dismissive responses' have you received,NJS? And remember some if the responses you were complaining about gave been made by Rhiannon, so in your attack on them you are being dismissal of her response.

All people have sought to do is to argue that talking about this as a new level of evil plays down the holocaust, but what do you end up doing? Arguing that because Rhiannon won't be picked up (for not actually doing the same as you), that it is somehow all about you.

If you do not consider that stating that these boys "did nothing wrong" as dismissive . . .

And yes I do include Rhi's earlier, similar, comments in that, but I find her later comment regarding canade to be rather better infirmed than yours.

My comment about Rhi not "being picked" up is because I have never seen any comment from her treated in the same way as mine - you have never called her a liar!

[Nearly Sane]

Since no one has said they did nothing wrong then that is irrelevant. As to Rhiannon I have never said that she is lying because I don't think she has - is that so hard to understand? Your logic implies if I say Himmler was a disgusting evil person, I am some how not picking up Grayson Perry in the same way.

[Owlswing]

Since no one has said they did nothing wrong then that is irrelevant. As to Rhiannon I have never said that she is lying because I don't think she has - is that so hard to understand? Your logic implies if I say Himmler was a disgusting evil person, I am some how not picking up Grayson Perry in the same way.

You carry on playing your pathetic games af semantics all you like - they do not interest me - they are something that you do when you have nothing of value to say!

[Rhiannon]

Matt, my earlier comments were as informed as my later. But these boys aren't responsible for evils such as the Holocaust.

[Nearly Sane]

Since no one has said they did nothing wrong then that is irrelevant. As to Rhiannon I have never said that she is lying because I don't think she has - is that so hard to understand? Your logic implies if I say Himmler was a disgusting evil person, I am some how not picking up Grayson Perry in the same way.

You carry on playing your pathetic games af semantics all you like - they do not interest me - they are something that you do when you have nothing of value to say!

Hmmm lying = semantics

[Owlswing]

Matt, my earlier comments were as informed as my later. But these boys aren't responsible for evils such as the Holocaust.

Nowhere did I say they were!

They stole from the dead of Auschwitz!

The Nazis stole from the dead of Auschwitz (this is, as you pointed out, what Canada was for!)

The boys are not responsible for the evils committed by the Nazis; what they did was, in essence, to repeat what the Nazis did in Canada - they stole, or attempted to steal, the property of Jews who were gassed as opposed to stealing the property of Jews who were about to be gassed.

If you watch the BBC documentary on Auschwitz it contains detailed survivor records of the ways in which individual guards stole for their personal benefit items and money brought in by the Jews. Just as these boys stole for their personal benefit or whatever!

The only differences as far as I am concerned are the timing of the thefts and the value of the items stolen and the lack of a political or anti-semetic motivation.

As you yourself pointed out Canada is classified as a war grave - so would you see someone who opened and robbed the grave of a WW1 or WW2 soldier as just stupid schoolboys on a 'prank'?

I'm not sure but I think that grave-robbing may still be a criminal offence in this country.

YES, YES, YES! this is a very personal matter to me - I would be just as angry if these little b******s had robbed my grandfather's grave in Essex - who was not a Jew, or my mother's grave in Kent, who was never a practising Jew!

OK - rant over - I will be posting no further comment on this thread - I cannot even begin to put into words my disgust at some of the sentiments expressed in it and so will not even attempt to do so.

[Rhiannon]

Matt, it can only be grave robbing if they knew it was a grave. We don't know that they did.

[OH MY WORLD!]

"A new level of evil" Get off it Matty. Like all the previous thefts never happened right? Remember the theft of the sign a few years back. No? Well get informed because this latest theft is hardly a new thing at all.

One thing these thefts do every time they happen, and it has happened before, dear angry Matty, is get people talking about the history of Auschwitz. That's a good thing. Now Matty, I just betcha you can't blame private schools for all the other thefts from Auschwitz. Have a cookie!

[jeremyp]

we are always  given to understand that these kind of schools only take in and put out the very best pupils, taught the highest standards of education and behaviiour.

Maybe you are but rich people's children cover the spectrum of ability just like everybody else's and even the intelligent ones can behave like idiots sometimes.

However, this act was characterised as "a new level of evil".  Yes it was crass and stupid and not to be condoned, but "a new level of evil"?  No.

But Hell! They are British schoolchildren so heaven forbid they should have done anything wrong - stupid yes - wrong no!

What they did was wrong and it certainly reflects poorly on all of us, but a new level of evil?  Nope.

[jeremyp]

Nothing can diminish the evil done but actions like those of these boys only adds grave-robbing to it!

They didn't rob a grave.  I thought they stole the artefacts from a museum.

[Owlswing]

Nothing can diminish the evil done but actions like those of these boys only adds grave-robbing to it!

They didn't rob a grave.  I thought they stole the artefacts from a museum.

Quote from Rhi #34

Polish authorities have classified Canada as a cemetery and have left the site untouched although visitors are free to walk around it.

[OH MY WORLD!]

These 17 year old boys have been fined, sentenced and have apologized. Not good enough for the likes of Matty, he wants their heads on pikes so he can parade them up and down his street.

This is nothing but drama. Why do i say that? Because it is a fact that these cases of people picking up artifacts off the ground to take away happens AT LEAST once or twice a year. Yup, and that info comes from the staff at Auschwitz. So suddenly now Matty is having a fit and calling it an new level of evil. What a pile of BS drama.

[jeremyp]

Nothing can diminish the evil done but actions like those of these boys only adds grave-robbing to it!

They didn't rob a grave.  I thought they stole the artefacts from a museum.

Quote from Rhi #34

Polish authorities have classified Canada as a cemetery and have left the site untouched although visitors are free to walk around it.

Not a grave then.