Grexit

[ad_orientem]

Greece has only itself to blame.  It mismanaged its economy massively;  low taxes:  not enough money acquired from taxation; plus horrific levels of evasion, all unchecked; ridiculous pension arrangements, often amounting to 92% of finishing salary; overspending, multiplied  by its entry into the EU, when borrowing became easier, and the Greek Government was allowed to borrow huge amounts, and then went on a spending spree:  finishing up owing some £300 billion, far more debt than they could ever sustain.  Then, when bailed out, and with creditors expecting their money back, entirely reasonably, they whine and squirm.. We could all do that, personally and on a national basis:  borrow more than you can sustain, then balk about paying balk.  Other counties, Spain, for example, must look on and think it'a one law for one, and one for the rest.  Greece should be allowed to leave the Euro, and the EU,  and make its own way.. You make your bed, you must lie on it.  It would be better for them, in the long run, and for everyone else.  To suggest they are being bullied is an absurdity: the IMF, and the ECB are fully entitled to insist on payments being made:  they would be remiss to do otherwise. The Greeks have been given huge leeway:  it's time to end it.

How simplistic and for the most part just not true. But if you think that 30-40 years of austerity is reasonable...

[BashfulAnthony]

Greece has only itself to blame.  It mismanaged its economy massively;  low taxes:  not enough money acquired from taxation; plus horrific levels of evasion, all unchecked; ridiculous pension arrangements, often amounting to 92% of finishing salary; overspending, multiplied  by its entry into the EU, when borrowing became easier, and the Greek Government was allowed to borrow huge amounts, and then went on a spending spree:  finishing up owing some £300 billion, far more debt than they could ever sustain.  Then, when bailed out, and with creditors expecting their money back, entirely reasonably, they whine and squirm.. We could all do that, personally and on a national basis:  borrow more than you can sustain, then balk about paying balk.  Other counties, Spain, for example, must look on and think it'a one law for one, and one for the rest.  Greece should be allowed to leave the Euro, and the EU,  and make its own way.. You make your bed, you must lie on it.  It would be better for them, in the long run, and for everyone else.  To suggest they are being bullied is an absurdity: the IMF, and the ECB are fully entitled to insist on payments being made:  they would be remiss to do otherwise. The Greeks have been given huge leeway:  it's time to end it.

How simplistic and for the most part just not true. But if you think that 30-40 years of austerity is reasonable...

"Simplistic." Rubbish!  What have I said that's not true?  Please answer, rather than a blanket dismissal.  How do you assess the situation any differently - and I doubt you actually can?

[ad_orientem]

Eh? I thought I already explained that in my previous post? Just how is a bailout plan that in five years has already caused an economy to shrink by 25% with a further 30-40 years of austerity (that's with a 3% budget surplus), with ordinary citizens bearing the brunt, in anyway reasonable? Perhaps you could explain that? How is that supposed to turn the Greek economy around?

[BashfulAnthony]

Eh? I thought I already explained that in my previous post? Just how is a bailout plan that in five years has already caused an economy to shrink by 25% with a further 30-40 years of austerity (that's with a 3% budget surplus), with ordinary citizens bearing the brunt, in anyway reasonable? Perhaps you could explain that? How is that supposed to turn the Greek economy around?

So you suggest they are allowed to renege on their debt obligations, then.  We could all do that, but this is the real world, and Greece has to adhere to its rules, which they initially agreed to, by the way, just as we have, and Spain, and Portugal, and Ireland.  It's unfortunate that the average citizen has to bear the brunt, but they do everywhere.  What do you suggest happens, then?  Because if you have an economic solution, then you will have bested the best brains in the whole of Europe.  As I said, it is best if the Greeks are allowed to exit both the Euro, and eventually the EU, and make their own way without expecting billions in hand-outs on a regular basis.  We owe even more than they do, and we are attempting to pay it back:  and we, incidentally, have contributed to the bail-outs to Greece through our contributions to the IMF..

[ad_orientem]

First thing they need to do is relax the austerity demands and then agree to a more reasonable repayment plan or even put interest payments on withhold.

[jeremyp]

The Greek Government seems to be blaming everyone but themselves, and previous Greek Governments for the mess they are in. From what I gather there has been mismanagement of their finances for many years.

And they're mostly right. The IMF, especially, is nothing more than a bully.

Don't be an idiot.  The IMF wants Greece to pay its debts back on the terms that Greece agreed.  How is wanting Greece to keep its side of the bargain bullying?

[jeremyp]

First thing they need to do is relax the austerity demands and then agree to a more reasonable repayment plan or even put interest payments on withhold.

Basically, you mean give free money to Greece to bail them out of the shit that they got themselves into.  I wonder if my bank will do that for me when I am overdrawn.

[BashfulAnthony]

First thing they need to do is relax the austerity demands and then agree to a more reasonable repayment plan or even put interest payments on withhold.

I  repeat"  Why?"    Greece has been given so much leeway:  there has to be an end of it somewhere.  It is economic illiteracy to allow this to go on indefinitely.  The bail-outs began in 2010, and now  Greece owes money to the IMF, the ECB and the European Union, following its two bailouts in 2010, and again in 2012. They are waiting for a further £5.2 billion in rescue funds.  Payments are due, but they simply want more loans to pay the outstanding amounts.  Sheer lunacy, to allow this to go on!

[ad_orientem]

That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.

[ad_orientem]

First thing they need to do is relax the austerity demands and then agree to a more reasonable repayment plan or even put interest payments on withhold.

I  repeat"  Why?"    Greece has been given so much leeway:  there has to be an end of it somewhere.  It is economic illiteracy to allow this to go on indefinitely.  The bail-outs began in 2010, and now  Greece owes money to the IMF, the ECB and the European Union, following its two bailouts in 2010, and again in 2012. They are waiting for a further £5.2 billion in rescue funds.  Payments are due, but they simply want more loans to pay the outstanding amounts.  Sheer lunacy, to allow this to go on!

End of it. There is no end of it under the current IMF/EU bailout plan, just endless harsh austerity.

[BashfulAnthony]

That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.

What the effects on the Greek economy are unfortunate, but it was all very foreseeable from the start, and that's why Greece should be allowed to exit the Euro, and find its own way.  It is not one tiny bit realistic, for them, or for their creditors, to expect them to be allowed to exist on credit indefinitely.

[jeremyp]

That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.

How do you feel about your taxes being used to subsidise the Greeks who are notoriously bad at paying their own taxes?  Because this is what you are arguing for.

[floo]

That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.

How do you feel about your taxes being used to subsidise the Greeks who are notoriously bad at paying their own taxes?  Because this is what you are arguing for.

Exactly!

[Owlswing]

First thing they need to do is relax the austerity demands and then agree to a more reasonable repayment plan or even put interest payments on withhold.

Basically, you mean give free money to Greece to bail them out of the shit that they got themselves into.  I wonder if my bank will do that for me when I am overdrawn.

If my experience is anything to go by - the answer is no bloody way! And that was only for £ 75.00

[Owlswing]

That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.

How do you feel about your taxes being used to subsidise the Greeks who are notoriously bad at paying their own taxes?  Because this is what you are arguing for.

Plus, of course, the Greek Govenment now in power was vot3d for by tye Greek people who object to the austerity measures that the previous government tried to implement to allow Greec to retain a modicum of growth in its economy.

If the Greek economy and Greek people suffer by being thrown out of or leaving the EU and the Eurozone as a result of the actions of the  Greek government that they elected to take those very actions that they ARE taking - who is to blame - themselves.

The Greeks clearly have no concept of "If you are in a hole - stop digging!"

[ad_orientem]

That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.

How do you feel about your taxes being used to subsidise the Greeks who are notoriously bad at paying their own taxes?  Because this is what you are arguing for.

Plus, of course, the Greek Govenment now in power was vot3d for by tye Greek people who object to the austerity measures that the previous government tried to implement to allow Greec to retain a modicum of growth in its economy.

If the Greek economy and Greek people suffer by being thrown out of or leaving the EU and the Eurozone as a result of the actions of the  Greek government that they elected to take those very actions that they ARE taking - who is to blame - themselves.

The Greeks clearly have no concept of "If you are in a hole - stop digging!"

A "modicum of growth"? You're having a bubble bath, pal. It caused the Greek economy to shrink by a quarter.

[ad_orientem]

That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.

How do you feel about your taxes being used to subsidise the Greeks who are notoriously bad at paying their own taxes?  Because this is what you are arguing for.

To be honest, I don't know how much of my taxes have gone to Greece, but I suspect not much. If the current Greek government had been in power at the start of the crisis they would never have accepted a bailout in the first place, so I don't see how the blame can be put on them. The current government was elected on the premise that they would end the harsh austerity measures demanded of them by the IMF/EU. It seems that they are doing their best to live up to that promise. Good on them. Now they will put it to the people again. Democracy in action.

[Nearly Sane]

I could find you a Nobel prize winning economist who will argue you either side here and I could try and make either case myself but not sure it is the time. This seems to lay out a more important story for just now

https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/126

[jeremyp]

To be honest, I don't know how much of my taxes have gone to Greece, but I suspect not much.

So far. But you are arguing for a lot more.  Where do you think the IMF and the EU get all that money from that they have loaned to the Greeks?  If the Greeks don't give it back, it is our loss.

[L.A.]

If you are looking for 'blame' the immediate crisis has obviously occurred because the Greek electorate were naive enough to believe that a bunch of Lefties could sort out a broken economy.

But the real problem is that Greece never met the criteria for Eurozone entry. Lots of people said so at the time, but those creating Euroland were so desperate to recruit members that they turned a blind eye to a lot of details (like the fact the the Greek government couldn't actually collect their taxes) and Greece joined anyway - so those who allowed Greek entry are the real culprits.

It's difficult to see a happy ending for Greece. My guess is that the Eurozone officials and creditors will just stand back until Greece gets a more sensible government.

[Nearly Sane]

'Reverse Corleone' will become famous with this

[Hope]

But the real problem is that Greece never met the criteria for Eurozone entry. Lots of people said so at the time, but those creating Euroland were so desperate to recruit members that they turned a blind eye to a lot of details (like the fact the the Greek government couldn't actually collect their taxes) and Greece joined anyway - so those who allowed Greek entry are the real culprits.

It's difficult to see a happy ending for Greece. My guess is that the Eurozone officials and creditors will just stand back until Greece gets a more sensible government.

LA, only three European economies met the convergence criteria for Eurozone entry back in 1998.  They were Germany, Sweden and the UK (and, of course, the latter 2 weren't even planning to join the zone).  In order to make the system work at all, these criteria had to be relaxed, but because France - a central element in the whole charade - was so far below the bar, the relaxation had to be dramatic, thus allowing Greece, Italy, Portugal and Ireland - all of which have had bail-outs since 2007 - in as well.  As such, the Eurozone has long been an unstable economic powderkeg waiting for the right trigger to set it off.

[Jack Knave]

Greece has only itself to blame.  It mismanaged its economy massively;  low taxes:  not enough money acquired from taxation; plus horrific levels of evasion, all unchecked; ridiculous pension arrangements, often amounting to 92% of finishing salary; overspending, multiplied  by its entry into the EU, when borrowing became easier, and the Greek Government was allowed to borrow huge amounts, and then went on a spending spree:  finishing up owing some £300 billion, far more debt than they could ever sustain.  Then, when bailed out, and with creditors expecting their money back, entirely reasonably, they whine and squirm.. We could all do that, personally and on a national basis:  borrow more than you can sustain, then balk about paying balk.  Other counties, Spain, for example, must look on and think it'a one law for one, and one for the rest.  Greece should be allowed to leave the Euro, and the EU,  and make its own way.. You make your bed, you must lie on it.  It would be better for them, in the long run, and for everyone else.  To suggest they are being bullied is an absurdity: the IMF, and the ECB are fully entitled to insist on payments being made:  they would be remiss to do otherwise. The Greeks have been given huge leeway:  it's time to end it.

How simplistic and for the most part just not true. But if you think that 30-40 years of austerity is reasonable...

"Simplistic." Rubbish!  What have I said that's not true?  Please answer, rather than a blanket dismissal.  How do you assess the situation any differently - and I doubt you actually can?

Brussels allowed the Greeks to join the EZ when they weren't qualified to do so - EU to blame here.

The EZ political project was an insane wet dream and was doomed to fail from the very start - EU to blame here too.

The EZ members broke the their own rules after only a year; Germany and France and did nothing to put it right - The big hitters are to blame here.

The EU deserves everything it gets because it was a failed project and ideology from the first; 1957, Treaty of Rome.

[Jack Knave]

The Greek Government seems to be blaming everyone but themselves, and previous Greek Governments for the mess they are in. From what I gather there has been mismanagement of their finances for many years.

And they're mostly right. The IMF, especially, is nothing more than a bully.

Don't be an idiot.  The IMF wants Greece to pay its debts back on the terms that Greece agreed.  How is wanting Greece to keep its side of the bargain bullying?

When you say Greece who do you mean? When did they agree with these terms you are talking about?

[Jack Knave]

That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.

How do you feel about your taxes being used to subsidise the Greeks who are notoriously bad at paying their own taxes?  Because this is what you are arguing for.

To be honest, I don't know how much of my taxes have gone to Greece, but I suspect not much. If the current Greek government had been in power at the start of the crisis they would never have accepted a bailout in the first place, so I don't see how the blame can be put on them. The current government was elected on the premise that they would end the harsh austerity measures demanded of them by the IMF/EU. It seems that they are doing their best to live up to that promise. Good on them. Now they will put it to the people again. Democracy in action.

...and at least Syriza has a democratic mandate which is more than the Troika has.