Grexit

[Jack Knave]

Greece was allowed into the EU because they wanted to:  they applied, they were not coerced.  Having done so, they were expected to follow the rules, as equal partners.  Nobody realised they were just out to make hay at the expanse o ftax-payers throughout the EU, by their excessive borrowing and wilful use of the loans.  Now that the chicken is home to roost they are reneging on their responsibilities.  They have had two bail-outs already, and now they seek a third.  They have been given plenty of leeway, but have not put their house in order.  What are the creditors supposed to do:  let this go on and on, whilst Greece gets further and further into debt?  That would be insane and unrealistic.  I might add, that as contributors to the IMF, the UK has stumped up £12.5 billion so far to help Greece, and we actually owe more than they do.  How do you feel about that, as a tax-payer?   If, in the long run, Greece leaves the Euro, as seems likely, then They will turn to the EU for further assistance,  As members, we will then be expected, with all the other members, to fund them again!

I refer you to Hope's post 46. The Euro should have never been undertaken in the first place.

Actually the sum we have associated with the Greek debt is 2 billion. Anyway the way the EU austerity/bailout plan works is that the bailout money is borrowed , from the banks by the EZ member states and put on their tax payers debt i.e. public government debt. Then around 92% of that money is used to pay the interest on the debt Greece owes the banks and lenders. (very little actually gets to the Greek people) It is a scam to bailout the banks. When the German people find out they have been buggered by their own 'mother' Merkel they will be riots, and the other countries citizens too.

In fact I believe the banks are only owed 5 billion now. Most of it is with the EZ citizens in some form or other and the ECB, which will eventually hit the people of the EU anyway.

[BashfulAnthony]

Greece was allowed into the EU because they wanted to:  they applied, they were not coerced.  Having done so, they were expected to follow the rules, as equal partners.  Nobody realised they were just out to make hay at the expanse o ftax-payers throughout the EU, by their excessive borrowing and wilful use of the loans.  Now that the chicken is home to roost they are reneging on their responsibilities.  They have had two bail-outs already, and now they seek a third.  They have been given plenty of leeway, but have not put their house in order.  What are the creditors supposed to do:  let this go on and on, whilst Greece gets further and further into debt?  That would be insane and unrealistic.  I might add, that as contributors to the IMF, the UK has stumped up £12.5 billion so far to help Greece, and we actually owe more than they do.  How do you feel about that, as a tax-payer?   If, in the long run, Greece leaves the Euro, as seems likely, then They will turn to the EU for further assistance,  As members, we will then be expected, with all the other members, to fund them again!

I refer you to Hope's post 46. The Euro should have never been undertaken in the first place.

Actually the sum we have associated with the Greek debt is 2 billion. Anyway the way the EU austerity/bailout plan works is that the bailout money is borrowed , from the banks by the EZ member states and put on their tax payers debt i.e. public government debt. Then around 92% of that money is used to pay the interest on the debt Greece owes the banks and lenders. (very little actually gets to the Greek people) It is a scam to bailout the banks. When the German people find out they have been buggered by their own 'mother' Merkel they will be riots, and the other countries citizens too.

In fact I believe the banks are only owed 5 billion now. Most of it is with the EZ citizens in some form or other and the ECB, which will eventually hit the people of the EU anyway.

Incorrect: the total British figure supporting the Eurozone is £12.5 billion. That amounts to £500 per home here!  How do you feel about that?  And they want more!  If it comes to EU bail-outs, then more will be expected from us - and we have burgeoning numbers of food banks, a huge welfare cut in the offing, and we owed more than the Greeks in the first place.!  Seems bizarre to let all this go on.

[Jack Knave]

Greece was allowed into the EU because they wanted to:  they applied, they were not coerced.  Having done so, they were expected to follow the rules, as equal partners.  Nobody realised they were just out to make hay at the expanse o ftax-payers throughout the EU, by their excessive borrowing and wilful use of the loans.  Now that the chicken is home to roost they are reneging on their responsibilities.  They have had two bail-outs already, and now they seek a third.  They have been given plenty of leeway, but have not put their house in order.  What are the creditors supposed to do:  let this go on and on, whilst Greece gets further and further into debt?  That would be insane and unrealistic.  I might add, that as contributors to the IMF, the UK has stumped up £12.5 billion so far to help Greece, and we actually owe more than they do.  How do you feel about that, as a tax-payer?   If, in the long run, Greece leaves the Euro, as seems likely, then They will turn to the EU for further assistance,  As members, we will then be expected, with all the other members, to fund them again!

I refer you to Hope's post 46. The Euro should have never been undertaken in the first place.

Actually the sum we have associated with the Greek debt is 2 billion. Anyway the way the EU austerity/bailout plan works is that the bailout money is borrowed , from the banks by the EZ member states and put on their tax payers debt i.e. public government debt. Then around 92% of that money is used to pay the interest on the debt Greece owes the banks and lenders. (very little actually gets to the Greek people) It is a scam to bailout the banks. When the German people find out they have been buggered by their own 'mother' Merkel they will be riots, and the other countries citizens too.

In fact I believe the banks are only owed 5 billion now. Most of it is with the EZ citizens in some form or other and the ECB, which will eventually hit the people of the EU anyway.

Incorrect: the total British figure supporting the Eurozone is £12.5 billion. That amounts to £500 per home here!  How do you feel about that?  And they want more!  If it comes to EU bail-outs, then more will be expected from us - and we have burgeoning numbers of food banks, a huge welfare cut in the offing, and we owed more than the Greeks in the first place.!  Seems bizarre to let all this go on.

I don't know where you are getting your figure from but any monies we give to the IMF does not go on our structural debt, and in theory the IMF has to pay us back regardless.

[ad_orientem]

Well done Greece! You had the guts to vote "no".

[BashfulAnthony]

Well done Greece! You had the guts to vote "no".

The trouble is they were not told clearly what the consequences might be, though to be fair, I don't think anyone knows exactly.  The only sure thing is that Greece owes a massive debt, some 230 billion euros, and one way or another, it has to be paid back.  Whatever happens, whether they stay in the Eurozone or not, they face years of austerity, and their debt is, of course, increasing daily.  Will the creditors give them some slack, or just insist on the original deal being adhered to?  Again, what ever new deal may, or may not be struck, the hapless Greeks urgently need a new bail-out deal:  so the debt increases further, and significantly. Greece is in the most dire straits, and will be for decades, possibly.

[floo]

Well done Greece! You had the guts to vote "no".

Oh very well done, now they are probably up the creek without a paddle, and they might find themselves in a much worse mess than they are now!

[Ricky Spanish]

Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.

Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.

Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.


As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.

Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?

[BeRational]

Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.

Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.

Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.


As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.

Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?

Can they pay it back?

[Ricky Spanish]

Have the banks we bail out?

[Sassy]

The union has a whole has to accept some of the responsibility for this happening.
I dare say it won't be last time it happens to a country whom the tourist in the past found a cheap holiday and more value for money.

The EU had to have foreseen this problem.
It is a joke that they pretend they did not expect it.

So does Germany play a prominent part or not? That is the question I see at this point...

[BashfulAnthony]

Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.

Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.

Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.


As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.

Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?

Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008.  If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide.  It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.

[Hope]

The union has a whole has to accept some of the responsibility for this happening.
I dare say it won't be last time it happens to a country whom the tourist in the past found a cheap holiday and more value for money.

The EU had to have foreseen this problem.
It is a joke that they pretend they did not expect it.

So does Germany play a prominent part or not? That is the question I see at this point...

Perhaps more importantly Sass, the Greeks have to accept responsibility for their predicament.  Listening to some of the commentators and interviewees on TV there seems to be an unwillingness to admit that they have been on the economic rack since long before the Euro was even thought of.

[Jack Knave]

Well done Greece! You had the guts to vote "no".

The trouble is they were not told clearly what the consequences might be, though to be fair, I don't think anyone knows exactly.  The only sure thing is that Greece owes a massive debt, some 230 billion euros, and one way or another, it has to be paid back.  Whatever happens, whether they stay in the Eurozone or not, they face years of austerity, and their debt is, of course, increasing daily.  Will the creditors give them some slack, or just insist on the original deal being adhered to?  Again, what ever new deal may, or may not be struck, the hapless Greeks urgently need a new bail-out deal:  so the debt increases further, and significantly. Greece is in the most dire straits, and will be for decades, possibly.

No Basher, if they leave the EZ they can default and devalue. And though this will be very painful in the short run they will be able to get to something akin to growth in the long run. This is better than being in the EZ where they will fester for decades on a flawed EU project plan geared to keep this project afloat.

[Jack Knave]

Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.

Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.

Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.


As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.

Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?

Don't forget the Banks benefit hand outs in the form of free money as QE.(£375 billion, €1 trillion and I'm not sure of the $ but it could be 15 trillion?) We can't have those poor bankers suffering because of the huge debts they have stupidly and irresponsible got on their books!!!

[Jack Knave]

Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.

Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.

Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.


As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.

Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?

Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008.  If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide.  It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.

So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!

[wigginhall]

I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro.  I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over. 

[L.A.]

I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro.  I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over.

if they get debt relief then everyone will be on the bandwagon - if that happens it will be the end of the EURO and a major blow to the EU generally.

Sadly, the only option that makes sense for the ECB is for the Greeks to be seen to suffer for breaking the rules.

[Jack Knave]

I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro.  I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over.

if they get debt relief then everyone will be on the bandwagon - if that happens it will be the end of the EURO and a major blow to the EU generally.

Sadly, the only option that makes sense for the ECB is for the Greeks to be seen to suffer for breaking the rules.

But the EU's heartless cruelty has been exposed, which is what I think was Tsipras' plan all long, and this will get the other leftie parties of Spain and Portugal to come out in force in October and November when they have their elections. By dragging out the negotiations and pushing things to the edge, promoting democracy as the peoples' will and annoying the creditors so that they show their real colours (which they do without realising how it is being perceived due to their arrogance and hubris for their project) the Eurogroup lot have dug themselves into a big hole where their nasty selfish anti-democracy motives have been revealed.

Tsipras has said that he wants to stay in the EU and sees it as the right place to be but his vision for what it should be and what it is now are poles apart and by bringing the people onto his side throughout most of Europe (even the French nationals and UKIP approved of the NO vote) he could just about bring about a wholesale change to the EU's milieu and format. His strongest card is democracy as the people understand and like that.

[wigginhall]

Of course, the EU was meant to transcend nation states, and was meant to work as a community working together.  But as soon as crisis has struck one member, the others have started the blame game, and the punishment game, the very thing which the EU was supposed to stop!

[BashfulAnthony]

Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.

Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.

Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.


As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.

Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?

Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008.  If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide.  It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.

So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!

Unfortunately, banks fuel the economy, and they are essential to its healthy running.  That's why we had to bail them out in 2008, and why we cannot allow them to fail now.

They may be nominally private firms, but since the Recession, they are in hoc to the tax-payer, and we have majority shares in RBS, and thus also Lloyds, Bradford & Bingley, and Northern Rock,;  so we cannot allow them to go under for that reason, too.  It may not be palatable, but the banks and bankers get the last laugh.

[L.A.]

I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro.  I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over.

if they get debt relief then everyone will be on the bandwagon - if that happens it will be the end of the EURO and a major blow to the EU generally.

Sadly, the only option that makes sense for the ECB is for the Greeks to be seen to suffer for breaking the rules.

But the EU's heartless cruelty has been exposed, which is what I think was Tsipras' plan all long, and this will get the other leftie parties of Spain and Portugal to come out in force in October and November when they have their elections. By dragging out the negotiations and pushing things to the edge, promoting democracy as the peoples' will and annoying the creditors so that they show their real colours (which they do without realising how it is being perceived due to their arrogance and hubris for their project) the Eurogroup lot have dug themselves into a big hole where their nasty selfish anti-democracy motives have been revealed.

Tsipras has said that he wants to stay in the EU and sees it as the right place to be but his vision for what it should be and what it is now are poles apart and by bringing the people onto his side throughout most of Europe (even the French nationals and UKIP approved of the NO vote) he could just about bring about a wholesale change to the EU's milieu and format. His strongest card is democracy as the people understand and like that.

But it can't happen (if the system is to survive) If you max-out on your credit card then tell your bank that you can't pay - what s going to happen - and in the unlikely event that your bank 'lets you off' - what is going to happen to the bank?

(UPIP obvously approve of the NO vote - they just want the whole project to fail - the French just like a bit of anarchy -eg. Calais)

[wigginhall]

Merkel is having kittens because the euro was meant to be her heritage, and it's at risk now.   And of course, German debt was given relief or in fact cancelled in the 50s, oh but that was different, and in any case, Germany is in control now. 

[wigginhall]

I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro.  I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over.

if they get debt relief then everyone will be on the bandwagon - if that happens it will be the end of the EURO and a major blow to the EU generally.

Sadly, the only option that makes sense for the ECB is for the Greeks to be seen to suffer for breaking the rules.

But the EU's heartless cruelty has been exposed, which is what I think was Tsipras' plan all long, and this will get the other leftie parties of Spain and Portugal to come out in force in October and November when they have their elections. By dragging out the negotiations and pushing things to the edge, promoting democracy as the peoples' will and annoying the creditors so that they show their real colours (which they do without realising how it is being perceived due to their arrogance and hubris for their project) the Eurogroup lot have dug themselves into a big hole where their nasty selfish anti-democracy motives have been revealed.

Tsipras has said that he wants to stay in the EU and sees it as the right place to be but his vision for what it should be and what it is now are poles apart and by bringing the people onto his side throughout most of Europe (even the French nationals and UKIP approved of the NO vote) he could just about bring about a wholesale change to the EU's milieu and format. His strongest card is democracy as the people understand and like that.

Well, the troika seem to want to control the Greek state now, and were angling to get rid of the Tsipras govt.    Whatever the outcome with Greece, I think the EU is being tarnished by this whole episode - I should think that the Euroskeptics can't believe their luck.   Merkel is their best recruiting sergeant. 

[BashfulAnthony]

I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro.  I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over.

if they get debt relief then everyone will be on the bandwagon - if that happens it will be the end of the EURO and a major blow to the EU generally.

Sadly, the only option that makes sense for the ECB is for the Greeks to be seen to suffer for breaking the rules.

But the EU's heartless cruelty has been exposed, which is what I think was Tsipras' plan all long, and this will get the other leftie parties of Spain and Portugal to come out in force in October and November when they have their elections. By dragging out the negotiations and pushing things to the edge, promoting democracy as the peoples' will and annoying the creditors so that they show their real colours (which they do without realising how it is being perceived due to their arrogance and hubris for their project) the Eurogroup lot have dug themselves into a big hole where their nasty selfish anti-democracy motives have been revealed.

Tsipras has said that he wants to stay in the EU and sees it as the right place to be but his vision for what it should be and what it is now are poles apart and by bringing the people onto his side throughout most of Europe (even the French nationals and UKIP approved of the NO vote) he could just about bring about a wholesale change to the EU's milieu and format. His strongest card is democracy as the people understand and like that.

Well, the troika seem to want to control the Greek state now, and were angling to get rid of the Tsipras govt.    Whatever the outcome with Greece, I think the EU is being tarnished by this whole episode - I should think that the Euroskeptics can't believe their luck.   Merkel is their best recruiting sergeant.

Yes, every cloud has a silver lining.  If all this mess precipitates our exit from Europe, then so much the better.

[wigginhall]

I don't think the mood music in the UK is to leave the EU right now; in fact, a common sentiment towards Greece right now is vindictiveness, which is rather ironic, since the EU is meant to work collectively for each other.  But if Greece is punished even more, and we have scenes of mass starvation, I'm not sure what the reaction would be.   More blame for Greece, sure, but I wonder about the feelings towards Germany and their banks.   Scary stuff, really.