Grexit

[BashfulAnthony]

I don't think the mood music in the UK is to leave the EU right now; in fact, a common sentiment towards Greece right now is vindictiveness, which is rather ironic, since the EU is meant to work collectively for each other.  But if Greece is punished even more, and we have scenes of mass starvation, I'm not sure what the reaction would be.   More blame for Greece, sure, but I wonder about the feelings towards Germany and their banks.   Scary stuff, really.

This country is well able to look after itself, without being at the beck and call of Europe, and the Germans and French, in particular, anybody else, for that matter.   Economically, we would be fine; and politically much better placed.

[Jack Knave]

Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.

Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.

Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.


As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.

Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?

Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008.  If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide.  It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.

So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!

Unfortunately, banks fuel the economy, and they are essential to its healthy running.  That's why we had to bail them out in 2008, and why we cannot allow them to fail now.

Our health? They are the ones who made us 'ill' you dipstick!!! They fucked things up. And they don't fuel our economy either!!!

[BashfulAnthony]

Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.

Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.

Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.


As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.

Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?

Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008.  If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide.  It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.

So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!

Unfortunately, banks fuel the economy, and they are essential to its healthy running.  That's why we had to bail them out in 2008, and why we cannot allow them to fail now.

Our health? They are the ones who made us 'ill' you dipstick!!! They fucked things up. And they don't fuel our economy either!!!

Are you a complete economic ignoramus?    Yes, the banks did cause the mess, but that doesn't mean they are not essential to any economy.    And yes, they do fuel our, and every other, economy.

Try and control your foul language.

[Jack Knave]

I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro.  I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over.

if they get debt relief then everyone will be on the bandwagon - if that happens it will be the end of the EURO and a major blow to the EU generally.

Sadly, the only option that makes sense for the ECB is for the Greeks to be seen to suffer for breaking the rules.

But the EU's heartless cruelty has been exposed, which is what I think was Tsipras' plan all long, and this will get the other leftie parties of Spain and Portugal to come out in force in October and November when they have their elections. By dragging out the negotiations and pushing things to the edge, promoting democracy as the peoples' will and annoying the creditors so that they show their real colours (which they do without realising how it is being perceived due to their arrogance and hubris for their project) the Eurogroup lot have dug themselves into a big hole where their nasty selfish anti-democracy motives have been revealed.

Tsipras has said that he wants to stay in the EU and sees it as the right place to be but his vision for what it should be and what it is now are poles apart and by bringing the people onto his side throughout most of Europe (even the French nationals and UKIP approved of the NO vote) he could just about bring about a wholesale change to the EU's milieu and format. His strongest card is democracy as the people understand and like that.

But it can't happen (if the system is to survive) If you max-out on your credit card then tell your bank that you can't pay - what s going to happen - and in the unlikely event that your bank 'lets you off' - what is going to happen to the bank?

(UPIP obvously approve of the NO vote - they just want the whole project to fail - the French just like a bit of anarchy -eg. Calais)

All this mess has occurred because the banks had no moral hazard. Private profits or public debt. If they had then they would have done some due diligence and not throw the money about. But they knew come what may they would get bailout. They should pay for being so greedy and so stupid!!! In other words by should go bust.

[Jack Knave]

Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.

Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.

Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.


As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.

Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?

Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008.  If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide.  It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.

So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!

Unfortunately, banks fuel the economy, and they are essential to its healthy running.  That's why we had to bail them out in 2008, and why we cannot allow them to fail now.

Our health? They are the ones who made us 'ill' you dipstick!!! They fucked things up. And they don't fuel our economy either!!!

Are you a complete economic ignoramus?    Yes, the banks did cause the mess, but that doesn't mean they are not essential to any economy.    And yes, they do fuel our, and every other, economy.

Try and control your foul language.

No, you're the economic dumbass. There are ways to handle the collapse of the fiat money banking system; basically debt is an illusion. Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...

[BashfulAnthony]

Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.

Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.

Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.


As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.

Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?

Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008.  If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide.  It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.

So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!

Unfortunately, banks fuel the economy, and they are essential to its healthy running.  That's why we had to bail them out in 2008, and why we cannot allow them to fail now.

Our health? They are the ones who made us 'ill' you dipstick!!! They fucked things up. And they don't fuel our economy either!!!

Are you a complete economic ignoramus?    Yes, the banks did cause the mess, but that doesn't mean they are not essential to any economy.    And yes, they do fuel our, and every other, economy.

Try and control your foul language.

No, you're the economic dumbass. There are ways to handle the collapse of the fiat money banking system; basically debt is an illusion. Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...

You are economically illiterate. 

Conventional wisdom suggests banks must start lending to firms before an economy can move out of recession.
In simple terms, so you can understand, refinanced firms expand output and hire more staff, who in turn spend more money in the economy, boosting demand – all of which cements a virtuous circle; that's how it works.  Where would firms get their cash flow but from banks?  Answer that. Orthodox economics insists you need the financial cycle to kick-start the economic cycle.  Do you follow that?  Do some reading.

[jeremyp]

Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...

Where are you going to borrow money to buy a new house? Or start a business?

[L.A.]

Merkel is having kittens because the euro was meant to be her heritage, and it's at risk now.   And of course, German debt was given relief or in fact cancelled in the 50s, oh but that was different, and in any case, Germany is in control now.

But the more recent history is that the Germans made great sacrifices to sort out the East. That was difficult enough but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.

[Hope]

Interesting to hear this morning that, whilst one can technically take 60 Euros out of the ATMs a day, in practice that has been reduced to 50, because banks have run out of 10 and 20 Euro notes and ATMs are now dishing out 50 Euo notes only.  My wife asked how banks are physically running out of such notes.  Is it because, being closed, the banks aren't being able to replenish their supplies from monies being paid in, by shopkeepers, for instance?

[L.A.]

Interesting to hear this morning that, whilst one can technically take 60 Euros out of the ATMs a day, in practice that has been reduced to 50, because banks have run out of 10 and 20 Euro notes and ATMs are now dishing out 50 Euo notes only.  My wife asked how banks are physically running out of such notes.  Is it because, being closed, the banks aren't being able to replenish their supplies from monies being paid in, by shopkeepers, for instance?

I'd like to bet that even when they open, there will be precious few people paying money in!

[jeremyp]

but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.

That's not entirely fair.  The Greeks instituted massive cuts to government spending and if the economy hadn't also crashed, they would now be running a healthy surplus. 

[Nearly Sane]

Meanwhile...


http://tinyurl.com/qx2tuph

[OH MY WORLD!]

"Remove the banks and the debt just disappears..." That's a funny one.
Who's going to lend a dime to a stunted country that thinks debt is an illusion that can just disappear by removing the ones that lent you money in the first place?

Oh ya, all those people stupid enough to keep their money under their beds.

[Jack Knave]

Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.

Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.

Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.


As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.

Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?

Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008.  If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide.  It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.

So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!

Unfortunately, banks fuel the economy, and they are essential to its healthy running.  That's why we had to bail them out in 2008, and why we cannot allow them to fail now.

Our health? They are the ones who made us 'ill' you dipstick!!! They fucked things up. And they don't fuel our economy either!!!

Are you a complete economic ignoramus?    Yes, the banks did cause the mess, but that doesn't mean they are not essential to any economy.    And yes, they do fuel our, and every other, economy.

Try and control your foul language.

No, you're the economic dumbass. There are ways to handle the collapse of the fiat money banking system; basically debt is an illusion. Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...

You are economically illiterate. 

Conventional wisdom suggests banks must start lending to firms before an economy can move out of recession.
In simple terms, so you can understand, refinanced firms expand output and hire more staff, who in turn spend more money in the economy, boosting demand – all of which cements a virtuous circle; that's how it works.  Where would firms get their cash flow but from banks?  Answer that. Orthodox economics insists you need the financial cycle to kick-start the economic cycle.  Do you follow that?  Do some reading.

But that is not what is happening anymore. The banks have no need to lend or for depositors because of the free money of QE. Why would they risk lending money out when they can make a sure buck betting in the shadow banking arena? And when it crashes we are the muggins who payoff there stupidity.

[Jack Knave]

Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...

Where are you going to borrow money to buy a new house? Or start a business?

A building Society. 

[Jack Knave]

"Remove the banks and the debt just disappears..." That's a funny one.
Who's going to lend a dime to a stunted country that thinks debt is an illusion that can just disappear by removing the ones that lent you money in the first place?

Oh ya, all those people stupid enough to keep their money under their beds.

I was talking globally.

[OH MY WORLD!]

So if you make the banks disappear, of course you can't expect to snatch their money in the process? Or do you think you can manage to pull that off comrade?
Well I'm I afraid your utopia will never materialize Jack. When has the world ever acted together and for such a silly proposal? I would get better financial advice from a monkey on a rock. Until I find a monkey on a rock I will stick with my investment banker at the bank where I have been a client for 40 years.

[Owlswing]

So if you make the banks disappear, of course you can't expect to snatch their money in the process? Or do you think you can manage to pull that off comrade?
Well I'm I afraid your utopia will never materialize Jack. When has the world ever acted together and for such a silly proposal? I would get better financial advice from a monkey on a rock. Until I find a monkey on a rock I will stick with my investment banker at the bank where I have been a client for 40 years.

Move to Gibraltar

[L.A.]

but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.

That's not entirely fair.  The Greeks instituted massive cuts to government spending and if the economy hadn't also crashed, they would now be running a healthy surplus.

Yes was probably true, the original measures were starting to work - until they elected a Loony Left government.

[ad_orientem]

but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.

That's not entirely fair.  The Greeks instituted massive cuts to government spending and if the economy hadn't also crashed, they would now be running a healthy surplus.

Yes was probably true, the original measures were starting to work - until they elected a Loony Left government.

It was precisely those measures, being too harsh to start with, which caused the economy to crash even further. You don't need to be an economist to realise that the overly harsh terms demanded by Greek's creditors is no way to enable Greece pay off its debts. "Loony Left government". Ha! More like loony neo-liberal creditors.

[L.A.]

but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.

That's not entirely fair.  The Greeks instituted massive cuts to government spending and if the economy hadn't also crashed, they would now be running a healthy surplus.

Yes was probably true, the original measures were starting to work - until they elected a Loony Left government.

It was precisely those measures, being too harsh to start with, which caused the economy to crash even further. You don't need to be an economist to realise that the overly harsh terms demanded by Greek's creditors is no way to enable Greece pay off its debts. "Loony Left government". Ha! More like loony neo-liberal creditors.

And it,s all going so well I understand 

[Hope]

It was precisely those measures, being too harsh to start with, which caused the economy to crash even further. You don't need to be an economist to realise that the overly harsh terms demanded by Greek's creditors is no way to enable Greece pay off its debts. "Loony Left government". Ha! More like loony neo-liberal creditors.

ad_o, the Greek economy has been close to the edge for far longer than the Eurozone has been around, and whilst I'd agree that by pushing them into the Eurozone the EU has probably has done irreparable damage to the Greek economy, the Greeks have to take at least some responsibility for their situation.  They enjoyed one of the most generous welfare and pension regime in the Western world prior to the arrival of the Euro.   

[floo]

but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.

That's not entirely fair.  The Greeks instituted massive cuts to government spending and if the economy hadn't also crashed, they would now be running a healthy surplus.

Yes was probably true, the original measures were starting to work - until they elected a Loony Left government.

It was precisely those measures, being too harsh to start with, which caused the economy to crash even further. You don't need to be an economist to realise that the overly harsh terms demanded by Greek's creditors is no way to enable Greece pay off its debts. "Loony Left government". Ha! More like loony neo-liberal creditors.

That is garbage, other Euro countries have had to pull themselves out of the mire by their own efforts like Ireland for instance, what is so special about flipping Greece?

[Hope]

That is garbage, other Euro countries have had to pull themselves out of the mire by their own efforts like Ireland for instance, what is so special about flipping Greece?

Floo, I think the reason that Greece is being treated so carefully is that, from the very start of the Eurozone experiment, their economy was probably the 'least good fit' of all those that were effectively forced into the Eurozone by Germany and France.  Remember that under the original terms of Eurozone membership, the ONLY country that is now in the zone which satisfied those terms was Germany.  The parameters had to be relaxed at least once in order for even France to qualify.  IIRC, there had to be a second relaxation to allow countries like Italy and Greece to be levered into the system.

[ad_orientem]

but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.

That's not entirely fair.  The Greeks instituted massive cuts to government spending and if the economy hadn't also crashed, they would now be running a healthy surplus.

Yes was probably true, the original measures were starting to work - until they elected a Loony Left government.

It was precisely those measures, being too harsh to start with, which caused the economy to crash even further. You don't need to be an economist to realise that the overly harsh terms demanded by Greek's creditors is no way to enable Greece pay off its debts. "Loony Left government". Ha! More like loony neo-liberal creditors.

That is garbage, other Euro countries have had to pull themselves out of the mire by their own efforts like Ireland for instance, what is so special about flipping Greece?

Eh? Greece will never be able to pay off its debts if all you're determined to do is strangle its economy to death.