Grexit

[wigginhall]

It's ironic really, all the bad loans that were made by the banks during the good old days are now being rewarded by massive bail-outs, to the tune of trillions of euros/pounds, while the debtors have to be punished for having accepted these loans!   It's never been such a good time to be a loan-shark, you can get all these unelected bodies (troika) to back you up with threats. 

[BashfulAnthony]

When you borrow money on a massive scale, and accept the conditions set down, then cannot pay, what do you expect the creditors to do?  The money lent to Greece was tax-payers money from across the EU, and the creditors have a duty to get that back.   Try borrowing £5,000 from your bank, then, unable to pay back, ask for another loan to pay it, and on your terms.  You'd be in court pretty quick with that attitude.  It's a pity the average Greek has to suffer, but many of them benefited from all the loans and missed tax payments, ultra-generous pensions, and improved infra-structure, etc.  It's life, I'm afraid! 

[wigginhall]

Actually, if I owed my bank a ton of money, they would be desperate to do a deal with me,  some kind of debt restructuring, for the simple reason that if we don't do that, I could chose to go bankrupt, in which case the bank would get about 5p in the £. 

Same with Greece, if they leave the euro, what chances of ever getting any money back for the loan-sharks, sorry, the French and German banks.

It's strange how Germany had some of its debts cancelled in the 50s, but hang on, that was Germany who now have the whip hand.  I think the UK and US also helped Germany re-establish various industries such as cars, but hey, those were the good old days, today the loan-sharks are king, that's life indeed.

[BashfulAnthony]

Actually, if I owed my bank a ton of money, they would be desperate to do a deal with me,  some kind of debt restructuring, for the simple reason that if we don't do that, I could chose to go bankrupt, in which case the bank would get about 5p in the £. 

Same with Greece, if they leave the euro, what chances of ever getting any money back for the loan-sharks, sorry, the French and German banks.

It's strange how Germany had some of his debts cancelled in the 50s, but hang on, that was Germany who now have the whip hand.  I think the UK and US also helped Germany re-establish various industries such as cars, but hey, those were the good old days, today the loan-sharks are king, that's life indeed.

Post-War circumstances were vastly different to now.  It was to no-one's advantage to have a destitute Germany, and the conditions in Greece, hard though they may be for many, do not equate with those in a shattered Germany.  I don't feel much empathy towards the EC, IMF, and ECB; but you have to live with circumstances as they are.  Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland, are all in deep trouble, (Ireland less so now), and they are sticking by the rules.are

[wigginhall]

I'm not sure about that.  I think a shattered Greece, with its economy pulverized by austerity, is quite dangerous.  For one thing, there is the danger of a swing of the political pendulum towards the right, where no doubt Golden Dawn are waiting in the wings, plus the danger of military take-over.   There is also the danger of terrorism beginning to occur in such a failed state.  Plus the spill-over from a collapsing economy to other economies.  Ah well, none of our concern really. 

The German miracle must be preserved at all costs!

[BashfulAnthony]

I'm not sure about that.  I think a shattered Greece, with its economy pulverized by austerity, is quite dangerous.  For one thing, there is the danger of a swing of the political pendulum towards the right, where no doubt Golden Dawn are waiting in the wings, plus the danger of military take-over.   There is also the danger of terrorism beginning to occur in such a failed state.  Plus the spill-over from a collapsing economy to other economies.  Ah well, none of our concern really. 

The German miracle must be preserved at all costs!

I'm not an apologist for Germany: just being realistic.  Greece will probably get some kind of deal, but it will be hard on them whatever happens; and you have to say, they brought it on themselves.

[wigginhall]

Well, loan sharks always blame the debtor, but in this case, they have the might of France and Germany behind them, who are desperate to prove that the euro wasn't a really really bad idea, but a really really good one, and if the Greek economy has to be sacrificed in the process, it's all for a greater cause.  After all, nobody elected the troika, and the Greeks elected their government, so how ridiculous to complain about unelected bodies, that's the whole basis of the EU, isn't it? 

[BashfulAnthony]

Well, loan sharks always blame the debtor, but in this case, they have the might of France and Germany behind them, who are desperate to prove that the euro wasn't a really really bad idea, but a really really good one, and if the Greek economy has to be sacrificed in the process, it's all for a greater cause.  After all, nobody elected the troika, and the Greeks elected their government, so how ridiculous to complain about unelected bodies, that's the whole basis of the EU, isn't it?

I have no sympathy for the EU, or any of it's aspects  -  I am an out and out Eurosceptic;  but Greece is in the Eurozone, and has to live with that and all its repercussions .

It was one of our wiser decisions to stay out of the Eurozone, and the sooner we exit from the whole failed EU project, the better.

[Jack Knave]

So if you make the banks disappear, of course you can't expect to snatch their money in the process? Or do you think you can manage to pull that off comrade?
Well I'm I afraid your utopia will never materialize Jack. When has the world ever acted together and for such a silly proposal? I would get better financial advice from a monkey on a rock. Until I find a monkey on a rock I will stick with my investment banker at the bank where I have been a client for 40 years.

Watch and learn.

[Jack Knave]

That is garbage, other Euro countries have had to pull themselves out of the mire by their own efforts like Ireland for instance, what is so special about flipping Greece?

Floo, I think the reason that Greece is being treated so carefully is that, from the very start of the Eurozone experiment, their economy was probably the 'least good fit' of all those that were effectively forced into the Eurozone by Germany and France.  Remember that under the original terms of Eurozone membership, the ONLY country that is now in the zone which satisfied those terms was Germany.  The parameters had to be relaxed at least once in order for even France to qualify.  IIRC, there had to be a second relaxation to allow countries like Italy and Greece to be levered into the system.

Don't forget Goldman Sachs.

[Jack Knave]

It's ironic really, all the bad loans that were made by the banks during the good old days are now being rewarded by massive bail-outs, to the tune of trillions of euros/pounds, while the debtors have to be punished for having accepted these loans!   It's never been such a good time to be a loan-shark, you can get all these unelected bodies (troika) to back you up with threats.

Don't forget about the politicians who were bribed to take out those loans, they're culpable too.

[Jack Knave]

When you borrow money on a massive scale, and accept the conditions set down, then cannot pay, what do you expect the creditors to do?  The money lent to Greece was tax-payers money from across the EU, and the creditors have a duty to get that back.   Try borrowing £5,000 from your bank, then, unable to pay back, ask for another loan to pay it, and on your terms.  You'd be in court pretty quick with that attitude.  It's a pity the average Greek has to suffer, but many of them benefited from all the loans and missed tax payments, ultra-generous pensions, and improved infra-structure, etc.  It's life, I'm afraid!

The creditors knew they couldn't pay it back but they knew the governments would bail them out. There was no risk for them it was win-win, they had no moral hazard.

[Jack Knave]

I'm not sure about that.  I think a shattered Greece, with its economy pulverized by austerity, is quite dangerous.  For one thing, there is the danger of a swing of the political pendulum towards the right, where no doubt Golden Dawn are waiting in the wings, plus the danger of military take-over.   There is also the danger of terrorism beginning to occur in such a failed state.  Plus the spill-over from a collapsing economy to other economies.  Ah well, none of our concern really. 

The German miracle must be preserved at all costs!

The markets will also speculate about who will be next and put pressure on them and they may not see the Euro as being such a sure thing and pull it down. If Greece fails it will show the many flaws in the Eurozone system. Also, don't forget about the migrant problem on the Med coast, which is where Greece is in the firing line and where they the migrants could easily invade the EU as Greece melts down.

[wigginhall]

Well, a failed Greek state could be a nightmare, possibly a conduit for terrorism, extremists of left and right, migrants pouring in in order to reach northern Europe, and so on.  Still, as long as Angela preserves her beloved euro zone, and the dodgy banks are supported, that's all that matters. 

[L.A.]

Actually, if I owed my bank a ton of money, they would be desperate to do a deal with me,  some kind of debt restructuring, for the simple reason that if we don't do that, I could chose to go bankrupt, in which case the bank would get about 5p in the £. 

Same with Greece, if they leave the euro, what chances of ever getting any money back for the loan-sharks, sorry, the French and German banks.

It's strange how Germany had some of its debts cancelled in the 50s, but hang on, that was Germany who now have the whip hand.  I think the UK and US also helped Germany re-establish various industries such as cars, but hey, those were the good old days, today the loan-sharks are king, that's life indeed.

It's also the Germany that has to undo the ravages of communism on half it's country. It is not surprising that they are not too keen to be dictated to by another bunch of commies.

[wigginhall]

Well, yes, it seems better to be ruled by an unelected troika, who have your best interests at heart.  Why bother with electing a government?

[L.A.]

Well, yes, it seems better to be ruled by an unelected troika, who have your best interests at heart.  Why bother with electing a government?

The Greeks have voted to join the Third World - who are any of us to question that Democratic decision.

[ad_orientem]

Well, yes, it seems better to be ruled by an unelected troika, who have your best interests at heart.  Why bother with electing a government?

The Greeks have voted to join the Third World - who are any of us to question that Democratic decision.

What a stupid comment. The Greeks voted to reject endless austerity, austerity which is slowly but surely strangling their economy to death. If this is the method by which the Troika believes Greece will be able to pay off its debts then it's even more dimwitted than it's already proven to be. You can't tighten the noose around a person's neck and expect them to be able to catch their breath. Maybe the Troika could actually learn some economics. Keynes would be a good start.

[wigginhall]

Well, the IMF have conceded that the austerity applied to Greece was too harsh, and has wrecked the economy, thus actually preventing repayment of debts.  However, this is too late, as it has all become totally political, some parts of the EU wanting to do a deal with Greece, but the Germans saying no. 

The really startling thing was that the the troika refused to do a deal with the previous Samaras govt, but then the troika wanted to make an example of Greece, and reduce them to penury, pour encourager les autres, obviously (to warn other governments).    Loan-sharks do knee-capping!

[jeremyp]

Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...

Where are you going to borrow money to buy a new house? Or start a business?

A building Society. 

Which is a kind of bank.  You're not allowed banks.

[jeremyp]

That is garbage, other Euro countries have had to pull themselves out of the mire by their own efforts like Ireland for instance, what is so special about flipping Greece?

What is so special is that things have gone too far with Greece.  There is no way for them to pay the debts back.  The ECB and the IMF are not getting their money.  It doesn't matter who is to blame.

[Hope]

Which is a kind of bank.  You're not allowed banks.

Only those that have gone the demutualisation route.  There are still some building societies that are mutual societies and not banks.

Then, there are credit unions and family members.

[Hope]

The really startling thing was that the the troika refused to do a deal with the previous Samaras govt, but then the troika wanted to make an example of Greece, and reduce them to penury, pour encourager les autres, obviously (to warn other governments).    Loan-sharks do knee-capping!

I wonder whether the lesson they wanted to teach the other EZ countries will be seen to have backfired in the next 5/10/... years?

[jeremyp]

Which is a kind of bank.  You're not allowed banks.

Only those that have gone the demutualisation route.

They are still banks in the general sense.

Then, there are credit unions and family members.

Credit unions are banks.  Of course your family members might have the ready cash to pay for a few hundred grand's worth of equipment to expand your business, mine don't.

[Hope]

They are still banks in the general sense.

But only in a sense that they keep your money on your behalf.  I'm not aware of any mutual societies/building societies that had to be bailed out by Governments and external bodies.  That is where your comparison falls down.

Then, there are credit unions and family members.

Credit unions are banks.  [/quote]OK, did any have to be bailed out by the Government?