Grexit

[floo]

It would appear that the 'new plan', which has been cobbled together by the Greek Government, contains many of the things which were rejected in last Sunday's NO vote!

[L.A.]

It would appear that the 'new plan', which has been cobbled together by the Greek Government, contains many of the things which were rejected in last Sunday's NO vote!

After boldly standing firm and going right to the edge - the Greeks have achieved . . . almost exactly what they were offered before.

(assuming anyone still trusts them)

[Udayana]

Oh, The grand old Duke of York,
He had ten thousand men;
He marched them up to the top of the hill,
And he marched them down again.

And when they were up, they were up,
And when they were down, they were down,
And when they were only half-way up,
They were neither up nor down.

[Jack Knave]

Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...

Where are you going to borrow money to buy a new house? Or start a business?

A building Society. 

Which is a kind of bank.  You're not allowed banks.

It is not a bank!!!

Also, I was referring to the present system which is usually called neo-liberalisms. I have no objection to other systems of banking where they are severely restricted in what they can do and undertake.

[Jack Knave]

The really startling thing was that the the troika refused to do a deal with the previous Samaras govt, but then the troika wanted to make an example of Greece, and reduce them to penury, pour encourager les autres, obviously (to warn other governments).    Loan-sharks do knee-capping!

I wonder whether the lesson they wanted to teach the other EZ countries will be seen to have backfired in the next 5/10/... years?

Spain and Portugal have elections in Oct/Nov. We may see then?

[Jack Knave]

It would appear that the 'new plan', which has been cobbled together by the Greek Government, contains many of the things which were rejected in last Sunday's NO vote!

After boldly standing firm and going right to the edge - the Greeks have achieved . . . almost exactly what they were offered before.

(assuming anyone still trusts them)

It's not over, there's method in their madness...I bet you there is a thorn in their proposals for the EU lot.

[jeremyp]

But only in a sense that they keep your money on your behalf.

You don't think that the money you put into a building society just sits in a vault somewhere do you?  They lend it to people who want to borrow money, just like a bank.

[L.A.]

It would appear that the 'new plan', which has been cobbled together by the Greek Government, contains many of the things which were rejected in last Sunday's NO vote!

After boldly standing firm and going right to the edge - the Greeks have achieved . . . almost exactly what they were offered before.

(assuming anyone still trusts them)

It's not over, there's method in their madness...I bet you there is a thorn in their proposals for the EU lot.

More a case of madness in their method if you ask me. The usual trick of politicians - create the external threat then make a drama of overcoming it. (Except in this case they haven't - so are they really fooling anyone?)

[floo]

I expect some sort of agreement will be worked out pro tem, only for the Greeks to be requesting a fourth bailout in the not so distant future!

[Jack Knave]

It would appear that the 'new plan', which has been cobbled together by the Greek Government, contains many of the things which were rejected in last Sunday's NO vote!

After boldly standing firm and going right to the edge - the Greeks have achieved . . . almost exactly what they were offered before.

(assuming anyone still trusts them)

It's not over, there's method in their madness...I bet you there is a thorn in their proposals for the EU lot.

More a case of madness in their method if you ask me. The usual trick of politicians - create the external threat then make a drama of overcoming it. (Except in this case they haven't - so are they really fooling anyone?)

There has to be that 'thorn' for the EU so they reject it as their plan is to show how undemocratic and nasty the present form of the EU is. This will then bring on board the other Leftie parties in the other member countries and especially Spain and Portugal as they have elections in Oct/Nov. I think that thorn is the insistence of a 30% haircut on their debt.

[Jack Knave]

I expect some sort of agreement will be worked out pro tem, only for the Greeks to be requesting a fourth bailout in the not so distant future!

Does the bailouts not go on to the Greek government's books? If so they are an insane system. The austerity plan just makes them poorer whilst the bailouts racks more unsustainable costs on them. Iirc Spain's bailouts short circuit to the banks and are therefore not shown on the government's books, except that portion that are used to finance Spain itself.

[BashfulAnthony]

I expect some sort of agreement will be worked out pro tem, only for the Greeks to be requesting a fourth bailout in the not so distant future!

Does the bailouts not go on to the Greek government's books? If so they are an insane system. The austerity plan just makes them poorer whilst the bailouts racks more unsustainable costs on them. Iirc Spain's bailouts short circuit to the banks and are therefore not shown on the government's books, except that portion that are used to finance Spain itself.

Just what are you advocating?  That the Greek Government be allowed to renege on its debts?  If not, what ?  They either pay, or they don't.  They have been given ample opportunity to get a grip on their finances over the last five years, and they are still seeking another bail-out, which will be their third. What are the IMF, ECB, and EC supposed to do? Keep piling the tax-payer's money into Greece, with, it seems,little hope or expectation of it being repaid?

[Jack Knave]

I expect some sort of agreement will be worked out pro tem, only for the Greeks to be requesting a fourth bailout in the not so distant future!

Does the bailouts not go on to the Greek government's books? If so they are an insane system. The austerity plan just makes them poorer whilst the bailouts racks more unsustainable costs on them. Iirc Spain's bailouts short circuit to the banks and are therefore not shown on the government's books, except that portion that are used to finance Spain itself.

Just what are you advocating?  That the Greek Government be allowed to renege on its debts?  if not, what ?  They either pay, or they don't.  They have been given ample opportunity to get a grip on their finances over the last five years, and they are still seeking another bail-out, which will be their third. What are the IMF, ECB, and EC supposed to do? Keep piling the tax-payer's money into Greece, with, it seems,little hope or expectation of it being repaid?

You're very myopic in your outlook on this one, Basher. The bigger picture, as I read it, is that Tsipras isn't looking for a deal he is looking to making the EU lot look like asses - undemocratic asses!!!

The Eurozone project can't work there is no solution here. Just as the USSR couldn't/wouldn't work as it was a flawed idea. Forget about trying to get workout what the right deal should be; who is obliged to do what. The EU project is about to crack up and you're acting as though there is a solution in all this.

[BashfulAnthony]

I expect some sort of agreement will be worked out pro tem, only for the Greeks to be requesting a fourth bailout in the not so distant future!

Does the bailouts not go on to the Greek government's books? If so they are an insane system. The austerity plan just makes them poorer whilst the bailouts racks more unsustainable costs on them. Iirc Spain's bailouts short circuit to the banks and are therefore not shown on the government's books, except that portion that are used to finance Spain itself.

Just what are you advocating?  That the Greek Government be allowed to renege on its debts?  if not, what ?  They either pay, or they don't.  They have been given ample opportunity to get a grip on their finances over the last five years, and they are still seeking another bail-out, which will be their third. What are the IMF, ECB, and EC supposed to do? Keep piling the tax-payer's money into Greece, with, it seems,little hope or expectation of it being repaid?

You're very myopic in your outlook on this one, Basher. The bigger picture, as I read it, is that Tsipras isn't looking for a deal he is looking to making the EU lot look like asses - undemocratic asses!!!

The Eurozone project can't work there is no solution here. Just as the USSR couldn't/wouldn't work as it was a flawed idea. Forget about trying to get workout what the right deal should be; who is obliged to do what. The EU project is about to crack up and you're acting as though there is a solution in all this.

No, you have me wrong.  I am a confirmed Euro sceptic:  the sooner the failed project is ended, the better.  What I am saying is, that Greece should not be allowed to demand its own rules for repayment of its massive debts, which it signed itself to, by the way, whilst others are not.

[floo]

The latest news. It looks as if an agreement has been reached to enable Greece to stay in the Eurozone!

I hope that when it comes to a British referendum on Europe we will opt to stay in.

[Hope]

The latest news. It looks as if an agreement has been reached to enable Greece to stay in the Eurozone!

I hope that when it comes to a British referendum on Europe we will opt to stay in.

But Europe and the Eurozone are two different things.  Interestingly, if anything, the Greek referendum vote was a 'no' to Europe.

[L.A.]

This fiasco seems to demonstrate three things:

1/ The single European currency was probably a step too far.

2/ Allowing the Greeks to enter was totally insane.

3/ You can always rely on a Left-wing government to make a bad economic situation worse.

[BashfulAnthony]

This fiasco seems to demonstrate three things:

1/ The single European currency was probably a step too far.

2/ Allowing the Greeks to enter was totally insane.

3/ You can always rely on a Left-wing government to make a bad economic situation worse.

It was a Coalition that got them into the mess:  so they are all to blame.

[Jack Knave]

It would appear that the 'new plan', which has been cobbled together by the Greek Government, contains many of the things which were rejected in last Sunday's NO vote!

After boldly standing firm and going right to the edge - the Greeks have achieved . . . almost exactly what they were offered before.

(assuming anyone still trusts them)

It's not over, there's method in their madness...I bet you there is a thorn in their proposals for the EU lot.

More a case of madness in their method if you ask me. The usual trick of politicians - create the external threat then make a drama of overcoming it. (Except in this case they haven't - so are they really fooling anyone?)

The game isn't over. Lots more to come...

[Jack Knave]

I expect some sort of agreement will be worked out pro tem, only for the Greeks to be requesting a fourth bailout in the not so distant future!

Does the bailouts not go on to the Greek government's books? If so they are an insane system. The austerity plan just makes them poorer whilst the bailouts racks more unsustainable costs on them. Iirc Spain's bailouts short circuit to the banks and are therefore not shown on the government's books, except that portion that are used to finance Spain itself.

Just what are you advocating?  That the Greek Government be allowed to renege on its debts?  if not, what ?  They either pay, or they don't.  They have been given ample opportunity to get a grip on their finances over the last five years, and they are still seeking another bail-out, which will be their third. What are the IMF, ECB, and EC supposed to do? Keep piling the tax-payer's money into Greece, with, it seems,little hope or expectation of it being repaid?

You're very myopic in your outlook on this one, Basher. The bigger picture, as I read it, is that Tsipras isn't looking for a deal he is looking to making the EU lot look like asses - undemocratic asses!!!

The Eurozone project can't work there is no solution here. Just as the USSR couldn't/wouldn't work as it was a flawed idea. Forget about trying to get workout what the right deal should be; who is obliged to do what. The EU project is about to crack up and you're acting as though there is a solution in all this.

No, you have me wrong.  I am a confirmed Euro sceptic:  the sooner the failed project is ended, the better.  What I am saying is, that Greece should not be allowed to demand its own rules for repayment of its massive debts, which it signed itself to, by the way, whilst others are not.

If you think they are part of a failed and corrupt system then why do you want them stay in it, would you? They think they can pull it apart and so negate on their debts and this includes the others as well.

[Jack Knave]

The latest news. It looks as if an agreement has been reached to enable Greece to stay in the Eurozone!

I hope that when it comes to a British referendum on Europe we will opt to stay in.

But Europe and the Eurozone are two different things.  Interestingly, if anything, the Greek referendum vote was a 'no' to Europe.

In some sense, yes. I think the vote was a confidence vote for Tsipras and bate for the EU elites to show their colours by talking it down and hence saying they have no interest in democracy. Tsipras will claim he had a gun put to his head to force him to make the deal the EU wanted though it has kept Greece alive (i.e. the banks mainly) so they can play the same game again to the Spanish and Portuguese elections. 

[jeremyp]

Interestingly, if anything, the Greek referendum vote was a 'no' to Europe.

Incorrect.  The Greek referendum was a no to the conditions that the ECB and the IMF want to impose on them (conditions that look remarkably like the later Greek proposals).  If you had asked the question "do you want to stay in the Euro and the EU" in the referendum, the answer would most likely be yes.

[BashfulAnthony]

JK,
"If you think they are part of a failed and corrupt system then why do you want them stay in it, would you? They think they can pull it apart and so negate on their debts and this includes the others as well."

I don't think they should stay in it;  but whilst they are there, and they chose to be, they should obey the rules they agreed to in the first instance.

[Udayana]

Plainly, the (new) agreement is not going to work either for Greece or the creditor organisations.

[BashfulAnthony]

Plainly, the (new) agreement is not going to work either for Greece or the creditor organisations.

Probably not.  The more reason to call it a day, and let Greece leave the Eurozone, and try to make a go of it on their own.