Where is Jesus' body now?

[jeremyp]

Why is it impossible for God to rise from death?

That's called begging the question. 

How come Christians discount the possibility of the disciples stealing the body and yet they do not apply the same critical standards to the possibility of resurrection.  I sense confirmation bias at work.

jeremy, we tend to discount the possibility of the disciples stealing the body because of the very same critical standards which you claim to be using

But you then discard those critical standards when you claim Jesus rose from the dead.

with the exception that we do not believe that the physically scientific is the only dimension that is acceptable within such standards.

I told you the "scientific" thing is a red herring.  This is critical thinking, you can't relax the standards just for the things you believe in.

If you assume god, all critical thinking has to go out of the window.  Could God have raised a man from the dead?  Of course.  Could God have helped the disciples steal the body and manufacture a resurrection myth.  Of course.  All possibilities become equally likely.

If you want to believe in God and that he did loads of wonderful things, that's fine but stop trying to insult our intelligence by dressing up your ideas as critical thinking or as evidence.  Assuming the existence of God invalidates all of that. 

[Owlswing]

It's probably in an unmarked grave in or around Jerusalem.

Good - I am glad you have decided that it is probable that Jesus existed.

As a Pagan I have never denied the existence of Jesus Christ as a human being.

You see, my belief is that there is no fundamenhtal difference between the spells of a witch (me) and the miracles of Jesus.

They are both used to effect a change in the physical world by using the mental power/concentration/belief of the practitioner and the natural forces of the world together with the aquiescence or assistance of a deity.

The bitch of it is that no-one, whilst writing the ruddy bible, bothered to write down the incantations/spells for feeding the 5,000 making the blind see (except in one case) and the lame walk. If only we had those words and the deity to whom they were addressed - considering the Christian god and church's attitude to witches I cannot see the Christian god aiding a witch like Jesus. 

[Shaker]

But can you provide evidence to show that they didn't happen.

The same howling fallacy not only within the same day but within a few hours.

It must be a record.

No, Shaker; you have already been unable to provide any evidence in support of your world view.

Yes, Hopeless. I've never even begun to go into my worldview in any depth thus far on this thread; this is entirely about the fact, and it is a fact, that you seem to be addicted to invoking the same weary old fallacy over and over again. As you know it goes by a variety of different names. The negative proof fallacy is one. The Argument from Ignorance is another. The Appeal to Ignorance is yet another. They all amount to the same thing and you keep on doing it. It's been pointed out to you any number of times but you persist. Tedious as this is, the penny may drop some day, even if that is the triumph of hope - see what I did there? - over experience. You never know.

All I'm now asking is that you provide me with a reason for not understanding what happened in 1st century Palestine, as described in the New Testament documents, in the way I do.

As you already know, reliance on purely physical, scientific reasoning doesn't cut it.

Why not?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why is it impossible for God to rise from death?

That's called begging the question. 

How come Christians discount the possibility of the disciples stealing the body and yet they do not apply the same critical standards to the possibility of resurrection.  I sense confirmation bias at work.

jeremy, we tend to discount the possibility of the disciples stealing the body because of the very same critical standards which you claim to be using

But you then discard those critical standards when you claim Jesus rose from the dead.

with the exception that we do not believe that the physically scientific is the only dimension that is acceptable within such standards.

I told you the "scientific" thing is a red herring.  This is critical thinking, you can't relax the standards just for the things you believe in.

If you assume god, all critical thinking has to go out of the window.  Could God have raised a man from the dead?  Of course.  Could God have helped the disciples steal the body and manufacture a resurrection myth.  Of course.  All possibilities become equally likely.

If you want to believe in God and that he did loads of wonderful things, that's fine but stop trying to insult our intelligence by dressing up your ideas as critical thinking or as evidence.  Assuming the existence of God invalidates all of that.

But Jezzer, if you assume ''not God'' you are equating critical thinking with atheism.
If you do the right thing and assume ''could be God'' then I'm afraid you have two roads and two destinations for your ''commitment'' on the God/no God issue. And then the question ''am I running towards a commitment of fleeing from one''.

[jjohnjil]

Why is it impossible for God to rise from death?

That's called begging the question. 

How come Christians discount the possibility of the disciples stealing the body and yet they do not apply the same critical standards to the possibility of resurrection.  I sense confirmation bias at work.

jeremy, we tend to discount the possibility of the disciples stealing the body because of the very same critical standards which you claim to be using

But you then discard those critical standards when you claim Jesus rose from the dead.

with the exception that we do not believe that the physically scientific is the only dimension that is acceptable within such standards.

I told you the "scientific" thing is a red herring.  This is critical thinking, you can't relax the standards just for the things you believe in.

If you assume god, all critical thinking has to go out of the window.  Could God have raised a man from the dead?  Of course.  Could God have helped the disciples steal the body and manufacture a resurrection myth.  Of course.  All possibilities become equally likely.

If you want to believe in God and that he did loads of wonderful things, that's fine but stop trying to insult our intelligence by dressing up your ideas as critical thinking or as evidence.  Assuming the existence of God invalidates all of that.

This, I think, is the reason the "Why couldn't God raise Jesus from the dead if he wants to" argument is dead in the water.  If God can do anything he fancies doing, he could put fairies at the end of Floo's garden; make elephants fly or do any of the things the theists here dismiss as fantasy.

Why not jump off tall buildings if you think God loves you and will protect you, you can do anything!  Nothing is ruled out.

[Andy]

Taken from the Why only three days thread:

Act 1:1-6 NIV
"In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized withfn water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight."

The part I've put in bold is kinda where I'm at with all of this. This is the last time anyone ever saw Jesus' body, so where did it go?

[Hope]

Why is it impossible for God to rise from death?

That's called begging the question. 

Perhaps you ought to ask God. 

How come Christians discount the possibility of the disciples stealing the body and yet they do not apply the same critical standards to the possibility of resurrection.  I sense confirmation bias at work.

jeremy, we tend to discount the possibility of the disciples stealing the body because of the very same critical standards which you claim to be using

But you then discard those critical standards when you claim Jesus rose from the dead.

No, the latter is one of the possible explanations of the events that occurred, and is the only one for which there is even a scrap of evidence.  Its folk like yourself who choose to accept possibilities for which there is absolutely no documentary evidence who are discarding the standards.

This is critical thinking, you can't relax the standards just for the things you believe in.

Couldn't agree with you more.

If you assume god, all critical thinking has to go out of the window.

Why? 

Could God have helped the disciples steal the body and manufacture a resurrection myth.  Of course. 

He could have done, but to what purpose?  The disciples had all scattered, scared that they were going to be arrested like the Rabbi they had been following for 3 years.  Is it likely that he would have used these pathetic creatures to run a scam?  After all, that is what you are suggesting occurred.  How many people that you know would be willing to die for a scam?

All possibilities become equally likely.

Not really; we still have to look for the evidence for those possibilities.  Perhaps you have evidence that no-one else has about one of the alternatives.

If you want to believe in God and that he did loads of wonderful things, that's fine but stop trying to insult our intelligence by dressing up your ideas as critical thinking or as evidence.  Assuming the existence of God invalidates all of that.

No-one is trying to insult anyone's intelligence.

[Hope]

The part I've put in bold is kinda where I'm at with all of this. This is the last time anyone ever saw Jesus' body, so where did it go?

As you have been asked before, why is where it went/became of it important to you?

[Andy]

The part I've put in bold is kinda where I'm at with all of this. This is the last time anyone ever saw Jesus' body, so where did it go?

As you have been asked before, why is where it went/became of it important to you?

I answered that.

[Hope]

The part I've put in bold is kinda where I'm at with all of this. This is the last time anyone ever saw Jesus' body, so where did it go?

As you have been asked before, why is where it went/became of it important to you?

I answered that.

Sorry, I hadn't seen that post.  What 'potential discrepancies' do you see?  Remember that people have been trying to uncover discrepancies of this sort for centuries without a great deal of success.

[Andy]

The part I've put in bold is kinda where I'm at with all of this. This is the last time anyone ever saw Jesus' body, so where did it go?

As you have been asked before, why is where it went/became of it important to you?

I answered that.

Sorry, I hadn't seen that post.  What 'potential discrepancies' do you see?  Remember that people have been trying to uncover discrepancies of this sort for centuries without a great deal of success.

How about we go back two steps and you answer my question first? Like I said, I'm not going to argue against a straw man.

[L.A.]

Or maybe it's here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8587838.stm

 

[cyberman]

Why is it impossible for God to rise from death?

That's called asking a question

That's called begging the question. 

That's called avoiding a question

[Alien]

Taken from the Why only three days thread:

Act 1:1-6 NIV
"In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized withfn water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight."

The part I've put in bold is kinda where I'm at with all of this. This is the last time anyone ever saw Jesus' body, so where did it go?

To heaven.

[Andy]

Taken from the Why only three days thread:

Act 1:1-6 NIV
"In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized withfn water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight."

The part I've put in bold is kinda where I'm at with all of this. This is the last time anyone ever saw Jesus' body, so where did it go?

To heaven.

So heaven is physical?

[Hope]

How about we go back two steps and you answer my question first? Like I said, I'm not going to argue against a straw man.

I have already answered your question.  I have also questioned the logical validity of the question.

[Alien]

Taken from the Why only three days thread:

Act 1:1-6 NIV
"In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized withfn water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight."

The part I've put in bold is kinda where I'm at with all of this. This is the last time anyone ever saw Jesus' body, so where did it go?

To heaven.

So heaven is physical?

Pass. It is able to accommodate Jesus' glorified body and we will have bodies too. So some might call it "physical".

[Shaker]

He doesn't.

[ippy]

It's probably in an unmarked grave in or around Jerusalem.

Good - I am glad you have decided that it is probable that Jesus existed.

As a Pagan I have never denied the existence of Jesus Christ as a human being.

You see, my belief is that there is no fundamenhtal difference between the spells of a witch (me) and the miracles of Jesus.

They are both used to effect a change in the physical world by using the mental power/concentration/belief of the practitioner and the natural forces of the world together with the aquiescence or assistance of a deity.

The bitch of it is that no-one, whilst writing the ruddy bible, bothered to write down the incantations/spells for feeding the 5,000 making the blind see (except in one case) and the lame walk. If only we had those words and the deity to whom they were addressed - considering the Christian god and church's attitude to witches I cannot see the Christian god aiding a witch like Jesus.

Scrote your film's on tonight 1-7-15 at 2100 ITV 4.

ippy

[Alien]

Taken from the Why only three days thread:

Act 1:1-6 NIV
"In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized withfn water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight."

The part I've put in bold is kinda where I'm at with all of this. This is the last time anyone ever saw Jesus' body, so where did it go?

To heaven.

So heaven is physical?

Pass. It is able to accommodate Jesus' glorified body and we will have bodies too. So some might call it "physical".

And you know that for a fact, because?

See #8.

[Owlswing]

It's probably in an unmarked grave in or around Jerusalem.

Good - I am glad you have decided that it is probable that Jesus existed.

As a Pagan I have never denied the existence of Jesus Christ as a human being.

You see, my belief is that there is no fundamenhtal difference between the spells of a witch (me) and the miracles of Jesus.

They are both used to effect a change in the physical world by using the mental power/concentration/belief of the practitioner and the natural forces of the world together with the aquiescence or assistance of a deity.

The bitch of it is that no-one, whilst writing the ruddy bible, bothered to write down the incantations/spells for feeding the 5,000 making the blind see (except in one case) and the lame walk. If only we had those words and the deity to whom they were addressed - considering the Christian god and church's attitude to witches I cannot see the Christian god aiding a witch like Jesus.

Scrote your film's on tonight 1-7-15 at 2100 ITV 4.

ippy

My film?

A classic horror film, but fiction not fact.

This is one of those misconceptoions about Pagan practice and ritual started by the late and (in academic and pagan circles) unlamented Margaret A Murray, a lady who talked a lot of rubbish and, while being a respected Egyptologist, ruined her academic reputation by fitting the evidence to her theory of witchcraft having survived underground since pre-christian times rather than the other way round.

Neo-paganism was not "invented"/Paganism was not "revived" until the 1950s after the repeal of the Witchcraft Acts and their replacement with the Fraudulant Mediums Act and, even then, such an occurrance would have been on the front pages of every scandal-rag red-top paper in the country for weeks.

The Wicker Man is fiction pure and simple.

Brilliant performances by Christopher Lee and Edward Woodward though.

[ippy]

It's probably in an unmarked grave in or around Jerusalem.

Good - I am glad you have decided that it is probable that Jesus existed.

As a Pagan I have never denied the existence of Jesus Christ as a human being.

You see, my belief is that there is no fundamenhtal difference between the spells of a witch (me) and the miracles of Jesus.

They are both used to effect a change in the physical world by using the mental power/concentration/belief of the practitioner and the natural forces of the world together with the aquiescence or assistance of a deity.

The bitch of it is that no-one, whilst writing the ruddy bible, bothered to write down the incantations/spells for feeding the 5,000 making the blind see (except in one case) and the lame walk. If only we had those words and the deity to whom they were addressed - considering the Christian god and church's attitude to witches I cannot see the Christian god aiding a witch like Jesus.

Scrote your film's on tonight 1-7-15 at 2100 ITV 4.

ippy

My film?

A classic horror film, but fiction not fact.

This is one of those misconceptoions about Pagan practice and ritual started by the late and (in academic and pagan circles) unlamented Margaret A Murray, a lady who talked a lot of rubbish and, while being a respected Egyptologist, ruined her academic reputation by fitting the evidence to her theory of witchcraft having survived underground since pre-christian times rather than the other way round.

Neo-paganism was not "invented"/Paganism was not "revived" until the 1950s after the repeal of the Witchcraft Acts and their replacement with the Fraudulant Mediums Act and, even then, such an occurrance would have been on the front pages of every scandal-rag red-top paper in the country for weeks.

The Wicker Man is fiction pure and simple.

Brilliant performances by Christopher Lee and Edward Woodwatrd though.

Are you sure about that? No naked dancing?

ippy

[Shaker]

Only Britt Ekland.

And not Edward Woodward*, thank goodness.

* Whose name was once described, by Sir John Gielgud I think, as sounding like a fart in a bathtub.

[Owlswing]

It's probably in an unmarked grave in or around Jerusalem.

Good - I am glad you have decided that it is probable that Jesus existed.

As a Pagan I have never denied the existence of Jesus Christ as a human being.

You see, my belief is that there is no fundamenhtal difference between the spells of a witch (me) and the miracles of Jesus.

They are both used to effect a change in the physical world by using the mental power/concentration/belief of the practitioner and the natural forces of the world together with the aquiescence or assistance of a deity.

The bitch of it is that no-one, whilst writing the ruddy bible, bothered to write down the incantations/spells for feeding the 5,000 making the blind see (except in one case) and the lame walk. If only we had those words and the deity to whom they were addressed - considering the Christian god and church's attitude to witches I cannot see the Christian god aiding a witch like Jesus.

Scrote your film's on tonight 1-7-15 at 2100 ITV 4.

ippy

My film?

A classic horror film, but fiction not fact.

This is one of those misconceptoions about Pagan practice and ritual started by the late and (in academic and pagan circles) unlamented Margaret A Murray, a lady who talked a lot of rubbish and, while being a respected Egyptologist, ruined her academic reputation by fitting the evidence to her theory of witchcraft having survived underground since pre-christian times rather than the other way round.

Neo-paganism was not "invented"/Paganism was not "revived" until the 1950s after the repeal of the Witchcraft Acts and their replacement with the Fraudulant Mediums Act and, even then, such an occurrance would have been on the front pages of every scandal-rag red-top paper in the country for weeks.

The Wicker Man is fiction pure and simple.

Brilliant performances by Christopher Lee and Edward Woodwatrd though.

Are you sure about that? No naked dancing?

ippy

In England - you must be bloody joking! Most of the time - not this week obviously - it is too bloody cold.

And, as my first High Priestess put it, "I cannot see why I need to take my knickers off to have a good ritual!"

[Walt Zingmatilder]

As you already know, reliance on purely physical, scientific reasoning doesn't cut it.

The ''reliance'' is actually a faith position. Not that the knuckle draggers are going to get that