Belgian doctors to euthanise healthy 24-year-old woman suffering from depression

[Shaker]

Evidently the heat today has done something to send your ability to comprehend short and simple sentences very badly awry. Have a cold drink and go indoors with a fan on or something.

[cyberman]

Evidently the heat today has done something to send your ability to comprehend short and simple sentences very badly awry. Have a cold drink and go indoors with a fan on or something.

It isn't that hot here.

I understand why she wants to die.

Stop dodging the question. Why doesn't she kill herself? why does she need to be killed?

[Shaker]

I'm not dodging the question - indeed I've answered it more than once. I'm not responsible for any difficulties you may have with the answer.

As for why she doesn't kill herself, I suggested why in #50.

[cyberman]

As for why she doesn't kill herself, I suggested why in #50.

You have suggested why she would prefer to die peacefully in her bed rather than under the wheels of a train. But why does she have to get someone else to kill her?

[Shaker]

I can explain it for you - in fact I have done so - but I can't understand it for you. It's perfectly clear to me that you're not especially interested in any answers with which you're furnished and simply see this as an opportunity to go round and round and round with the same inane question which has already been answered by at least one person.

[ProfessorDavey]

Evidently the heat today has done something to send your ability to comprehend short and simple sentences very badly awry. Have a cold drink and go indoors with a fan on or something.

It isn't that hot here.

I understand why she wants to die.

Stop dodging the question. Why doesn't she kill herself? why does she need to be killed?

Perhaps consider it in this way.

Why does a person in need of a tooth extraction go to the dentist. Surely they could do it themselves - all you need is a pair of pliers.

I know this sounds touch flippant, but I'd imagine that someone might want to be assisted in dying as this would be the best way to ensure that:
1. It was successful
2. It was painless and
3. It could be done in a planned and dignified manner

[Shaker]

I'm not dodging the question - indeed I've answered it more than once. I'm not responsible for any difficulties you may have with the answer.

As for why she doesn't kill herself, I suggested why in #50.

Yes you are.

And no you didn't.

Oh no, first Dumb, now Dumber fetches up 

[cyberman]

I can explain it for you - in fact I have done so - but I can't understand it for you. It's perfectly clear to me that you're not especially interested in any answers with which you're furnished and simply see this as an opportunity to go round and round and round with the same inane question which has already been answered by at least one person.

I know shaker of old - this is his way of saying he can't answer the question.

Shaker, don't pretend to be stupid - we all know you're far from it.

We know why she wants to die. But she can kill herself.
We know why she doesn't want to throw herself under a train. But she can kill herself.
We know why she wants to die peacefully in her bed. But she can kill herself.
She wants a doctor to kill her. But she can kill herself.

Why does she need a doctor to kill her when she can kill herself?
No, you have not answered that question.

[cyberman]

I'm not dodging the question - indeed I've answered it more than once. I'm not responsible for any difficulties you may have with the answer.

As for why she doesn't kill herself, I suggested why in #50.

Yes you are.

And no you didn't.

Oh no, first Dumb, now Dumber fetches up 

Oh he's getting flustered now!

[Shaker]

I can explain it for you - in fact I have done so - but I can't understand it for you. It's perfectly clear to me that you're not especially interested in any answers with which you're furnished and simply see this as an opportunity to go round and round and round with the same inane question which has already been answered by at least one person.

I know shaker of old - this is his way of saying he can't answer the question.

Shaker, don't pretend to be stupid - we all know you're far from it.

We know why she wants to die. But she can kill herself.
We know why she doesn't want to throw herself under a train. But she can kill herself.
We know why she wants to die peacefully in her bed. But she can kill herself.
She wants a doctor to kill her. But she can kill herself.

Why does she need a doctor to kill her when she can kill herself?
No, you have not answered that question.

I did so in #50. Professor Davey has just said essentially the same as I did in that post - why not be an irritating arsehole to him?

[Shaker]

I'm not dodging the question - indeed I've answered it more than once. I'm not responsible for any difficulties you may have with the answer.

As for why she doesn't kill herself, I suggested why in #50.

Yes you are.

And no you didn't.

Oh no, first Dumb, now Dumber fetches up 

Oh he's getting flustered now!

Deliberate obtuseness gets me that way.

[ProfessorDavey]

I can explain it for you - in fact I have done so - but I can't understand it for you. It's perfectly clear to me that you're not especially interested in any answers with which you're furnished and simply see this as an opportunity to go round and round and round with the same inane question which has already been answered by at least one person.

I know shaker of old - this is his way of saying he can't answer the question.

Shaker, don't pretend to be stupid - we all know you're far from it.

We know why she wants to die. But she can kill herself.
We know why she doesn't want to throw herself under a train. But she can kill herself.
We know why she wants to die peacefully in her bed. But she can kill herself.
She wants a doctor to kill her. But she can kill herself.

Why does she need a doctor to kill her when she can kill herself?
No, you have not answered that question.

But I think I have - see above.

[Owlswing]

Evidently the heat today has done something to send your ability to comprehend short and simple sentences very badly awry. Have a cold drink and go indoors with a fan on or something.

It isn't that hot here.

I understand why she wants to die.

Stop dodging the question. Why doesn't she kill herself? why does she need to be killed?

Perhaps consider it in this way.

Why does a person in need of a tooth extraction go to the dentist. Surely they could do it themselves - all you need is a pair of pliers.

I know this sounds touch flippant, but I'd imagine that someone might want to be assisted in dying as this would be the best way to ensure that:
1. It was successful
2. It was painless and
3. It could be done in a planned and dignified manner

Concepts totally alien to the objectors.

[cyberman]

I can explain it for you - in fact I have done so - but I can't understand it for you. It's perfectly clear to me that you're not especially interested in any answers with which you're furnished and simply see this as an opportunity to go round and round and round with the same inane question which has already been answered by at least one person.

I know shaker of old - this is his way of saying he can't answer the question.

Shaker, don't pretend to be stupid - we all know you're far from it.

We know why she wants to die. But she can kill herself.
We know why she doesn't want to throw herself under a train. But she can kill herself.
We know why she wants to die peacefully in her bed. But she can kill herself.
She wants a doctor to kill her. But she can kill herself.

Why does she need a doctor to kill her when she can kill herself?
No, you have not answered that question.

I did so in #50. Professor Davey has just said essentially the same as I did in that post - why not being an irritating arsehole to him?

No, in #50 you talked about why she would rather die peacefully in her bed and not under the wheels of a train.

she can die peacefully in her bed without getting a doctor to kill her.
she can die without any trains being nearby without a doctor killing her.

Why does she heed a doctor to kill her in order to die peacefully in her bed?

We are talking about euthanasia, not assisted suicide. Even if the doctor gave her the stuff to take home, she could kill herself. Why does a doctor need to kill her.

"arsehole"? More evidence that you know you are in a corner.

[cyberman]

I can explain it for you - in fact I have done so - but I can't understand it for you. It's perfectly clear to me that you're not especially interested in any answers with which you're furnished and simply see this as an opportunity to go round and round and round with the same inane question which has already been answered by at least one person.

I know shaker of old - this is his way of saying he can't answer the question.

Shaker, don't pretend to be stupid - we all know you're far from it.

We know why she wants to die. But she can kill herself.
We know why she doesn't want to throw herself under a train. But she can kill herself.
We know why she wants to die peacefully in her bed. But she can kill herself.
She wants a doctor to kill her. But she can kill herself.

Why does she need a doctor to kill her when she can kill herself?
No, you have not answered that question.

But I think I have - see above.

Not quite - but thank you for engaging the question, unlike Shaker!

the dentist v pliers analogy falls down because she isn't faced with a choice between a painful death or getting a doctor to do it.

she can die painlessly, peacefully, in her bed, without getting a doctor to kill her.

[Shaker]

No, in #50 you talked about why she would rather die peacefully in her bed and not under the wheels of a train.

she can die peacefully in her bed without getting a doctor to kill her.

How?

she can die without any trains being nearby without a doctor killing her.

How?

Why does she heed a doctor to kill her in order to die peacefully in her bed?

Already answered.

We are talking about euthanasia, not assisted suicide. Even if the doctor gave her the stuff to take home, she could kill herself. Why does a doctor need to kill her.

See previous response.

[cyberman]

she can die peacefully in her bed without getting a doctor to kill her.

How?

she can die without any trains being nearby without a doctor killing her.

How?

By taking medication which would cause her to die peacefully in her bed, obvs.
the kind of stuff they dish out at dignitas, I guess

[ProfessorDavey]

No, in #50 you talked about why she would rather die peacefully in her bed and not under the wheels of a train.

she can die peacefully in her bed without getting a doctor to kill her.
she can die without any trains being nearby without a doctor killing her.

Why does she heed a doctor to kill her in order to die peacefully in her bed?

We are talking about euthanasia, not assisted suicide. Even if the doctor gave her the stuff to take home, she could kill herself. Why does a doctor need to kill her.

"arsehole"? More evidence that you know you are in a corner.

No I set out a number of conditions that need to be met, not just that the death be peaceful and pain free. The key being that it is successful. Sure, she could take an overdose, but without decent medical competence, she might end up waking up in the A&E department rather than dead. She could induce brain damage but not death making the situation worse.

Now this is an argument against assistance rather that specifically getting a doctor to actually do the administration. So there could be a syringe she controls herself but under medical supervision. But actually once there is medical assistance, does it actually matter whether she controls the syringe or the doctor does under her orders. I'm not sure.

[Shaker]

By taking medication which would cause her to die peacefully in her bed, obvs.

And where is this to be obtained?

the kind of stuff they dish out at dignitas, I guess

She isn't at Dignitas.

[cyberman]

By taking medication which would cause her to die peacefully in her bed, obvs.

And where is this to be obtained?

the kind of stuff they dish out at dignitas, I guess

She isn't at Dignitas.

I know she isn't at dignitas. I am sure assisted suicide isn't beyond the competence of Belgian doctors. Judging by the chocolates I won in a spot the ball competition this week, the Belgians are a clever lot.

Do you suppose that they would be incapable of giving her what was needed?

[ProfessorDavey]

I can explain it for you - in fact I have done so - but I can't understand it for you. It's perfectly clear to me that you're not especially interested in any answers with which you're furnished and simply see this as an opportunity to go round and round and round with the same inane question which has already been answered by at least one person.

I know shaker of old - this is his way of saying he can't answer the question.

Shaker, don't pretend to be stupid - we all know you're far from it.

We know why she wants to die. But she can kill herself.
We know why she doesn't want to throw herself under a train. But she can kill herself.
We know why she wants to die peacefully in her bed. But she can kill herself.
She wants a doctor to kill her. But she can kill herself.

Why does she need a doctor to kill her when she can kill herself?
No, you have not answered that question.

But I think I have - see above.

Not quite - but thank you for engaging the question, unlike Shaker!

the dentist v pliers analogy falls down because she isn't faced with a choice between a painful death or getting a doctor to do it.

she can die painlessly, peacefully, in her bed, without getting a doctor to kill her.

Without medical assistance I don't think she can be confident that her actions will be successful, painless and dignified.

But there are plenty of things that we might want to happen but can't (for various reasons) bring ourselves to do. For example if we had a much loved pet, even were we able to administer a lethal dose to put that pet down because they were extremely ill, and also knew this to be the best course of action I'm sure many people wouldn't be able to do this themselves, but would need a vet to help.

[cyberman]

I can explain it for you - in fact I have done so - but I can't understand it for you. It's perfectly clear to me that you're not especially interested in any answers with which you're furnished and simply see this as an opportunity to go round and round and round with the same inane question which has already been answered by at least one person.

I know shaker of old - this is his way of saying he can't answer the question.

Shaker, don't pretend to be stupid - we all know you're far from it.

We know why she wants to die. But she can kill herself.
We know why she doesn't want to throw herself under a train. But she can kill herself.
We know why she wants to die peacefully in her bed. But she can kill herself.
She wants a doctor to kill her. But she can kill herself.

Why does she need a doctor to kill her when she can kill herself?
No, you have not answered that question.

But I think I have - see above.

Not quite - but thank you for engaging the question, unlike Shaker!

the dentist v pliers analogy falls down because she isn't faced with a choice between a painful death or getting a doctor to do it.

she can die painlessly, peacefully, in her bed, without getting a doctor to kill her.

Without medical assistance I don't think she can be confident that her actions will be successful, painless and dignified.

But there are plenty of things that we might want to happen but can't (for various reasons) bring ourselves to do. For example if we had a much loved pet, even were we able to administer a lethal dose to put that pet down because they were extremely ill, and also knew this to be the best course of action I'm sure many people wouldn't be able to do this themselves, but would need a vet to help.

Do patients who attend Dignitas get a peaceful, dignified death, do you think?

[ProfessorDavey]

I can explain it for you - in fact I have done so - but I can't understand it for you. It's perfectly clear to me that you're not especially interested in any answers with which you're furnished and simply see this as an opportunity to go round and round and round with the same inane question which has already been answered by at least one person.

I know shaker of old - this is his way of saying he can't answer the question.

Shaker, don't pretend to be stupid - we all know you're far from it.

We know why she wants to die. But she can kill herself.
We know why she doesn't want to throw herself under a train. But she can kill herself.
We know why she wants to die peacefully in her bed. But she can kill herself.
She wants a doctor to kill her. But she can kill herself.

Why does she need a doctor to kill her when she can kill herself?
No, you have not answered that question.

But I think I have - see above.

Not quite - but thank you for engaging the question, unlike Shaker!

the dentist v pliers analogy falls down because she isn't faced with a choice between a painful death or getting a doctor to do it.

she can die painlessly, peacefully, in her bed, without getting a doctor to kill her.

Without medical assistance I don't think she can be confident that her actions will be successful, painless and dignified.

But there are plenty of things that we might want to happen but can't (for various reasons) bring ourselves to do. For example if we had a much loved pet, even were we able to administer a lethal dose to put that pet down because they were extremely ill, and also knew this to be the best course of action I'm sure many people wouldn't be able to do this themselves, but would need a vet to help.

Do patients who attend Dignitas get a peaceful, dignified death, do you think?

I don't know but I would hope so. Isn't that the whole idea, although I'm sure many people would prefer to be assisted to die in a painless and dignified manner in the familiar surroundings of their own homes rather than a Swiss clinic.

Interestingly the article reports that the woman had attempted suicide on several occasions, clearly unsuccessfully. So it isn't so clear cut that she can kill herself, even leaving aside the issue of pain free etc.

[L.A.]

As I pointed out earlier, mental illness is treatable.

In all cases all of the time, or in only some cases some of the time?

While I fully accept that current treatments are not perfect, they can work for many, so offering such people an easy-option of suicide does not seem like a good idea.

What do you propose to do with the not-many?

Secondly, (as has been mentioned) those who are physically fit do not need any assistance to kill themselves.

Those who desperately need an option of euthanasia are those who are facing a slow painful/humiliating death but are physically incapable of taking action themselves or travelling to an overseas facility.

Perhaps it has a lot to do with the fact that killing people medically (typically via a large dose of barbiturates) is easy, quick, painless, dignified and certain whereas typical suicide methods (depending on specific method) are none of these.

You wish to die. You can either throw yourself beneath a train, with all that that entails for trauma to the driver, the team needed to scrape up the bits, delay and disruption etc., or you can fall asleep in bed and never wake up. Your call.

Mental illness is a totally different scenario to 'End of life' illness. My wife has worked in mental health services and it's not uncommon for suicidal patients to make a complete recovery.

No sensible person would do anything to make suicide easier for the mentally ill but no truly compassionate person would wish for a prolonged painful death for a terminally ill patient.


P.S. I wasn't suggesting that the mentally ill ought to kill themselves, simply pointing out the obvious truth that they can.

[Shaker]

I don't know but I would hope so.

At least one person - Peter Smedley - was filmed killing himself at Dignitas for the documentary made by the late Terry Pratchett. Whether this is available online I don't know.

Isn't that the whole idea, although I'm sure many people would prefer to be assisted to die in a painless and dignified manner in the familiar surroundings of their own homes rather than a Swiss clinic.

Precisely.