Author Topic: Just supposing...........  (Read 68743 times)

Hope

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #275 on: August 31, 2015, 09:45:38 AM »
The scientific among them may have had ideas that some of these things had natural causes but the vast majority of the people - and especially the simple fishermen and carpenters around the Middle East - knew nothing of any theories or discoveries, Hope, ...
Do you have any evidence for that claim, jj?

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... they and the church elders still put everything down to that super hero in the sky, ...
Did they - your evidence please.  Remember that they were quite happy to blame other humans for various events, and that - as far as the New Testament is concerned - there is no reference to events like volcanic eruptions or earthquakes actually being caused by an deity.  Yes, a darkening of the sky occurred at the same time as the crucifixion, but there is no suggestion that it was specifically timed to occur then by God.  Rather, it's occurrence is taken as a sign from God, which is different to assuming that it was caused by God beyond the understanding that - as God created the universe - he was ultimately responsible for all natural events that occurred.

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... just as you do today - only now you make him responsible for causing the Big Bang etc.
Only now?  Remember that the 'Big Bang' is effectively trailed in Genesis chapter 1.  This material dates to at least 5 centuries before Jesus was born, so to suggest 'only now' is to miss the point.  In fact, this event actually highlights the difference between science, which seeks to answer questions such as 'how' and 'when' - and religion, which looks at the 'why'.
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floo

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #276 on: August 31, 2015, 10:27:01 AM »
The followers of Jesus come over as pretty gullible, just like many today who are swayed by the likes of  the scam merchant Benny Hinn. I suspect Jesus was quite charismatic, hence the reason he was able to draw a crowd. However, it would appear that his family and people in his home environment who knew him well didn't seem to rate him in the same way!

Hope

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #277 on: August 31, 2015, 10:45:56 AM »
The followers of Jesus come over as pretty gullible, ...
In what way(s)?  As pointed out elsewhere, you really love these massive 'brush-stroke' comments, without ever producing any evidence beyond your own experience - which, of course, has to be discounted according to many of those who share your views.

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just like many today who are swayed by the likes of  the scam merchant Benny Hinn.
And just how 'many' would that 'many' be, Floo?

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However, it would appear that his family and people in his home environment who knew him well didn't seem to rate him in the same way!
And how many successful people do you know whose 'family and people in (his) home environment' rated them as able to succeed in the way that they have?  Very few, I suspect.  It is a common trait that parents and others, one grows up amongst, underestimate one's abilities.
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jjohnjil

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #278 on: August 31, 2015, 10:54:24 AM »
The scientific among them may have had ideas that some of these things had natural causes but the vast majority of the people - and especially the simple fishermen and carpenters around the Middle East - knew nothing of any theories or discoveries, Hope, ...
Do you have any evidence for that claim, jj?

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... they and the church elders still put everything down to that super hero in the sky, ...
Did they - your evidence please.  Remember that they were quite happy to blame other humans for various events, and that - as far as the New Testament is concerned - there is no reference to events like volcanic eruptions or earthquakes actually being caused by an deity.  Yes, a darkening of the sky occurred at the same time as the crucifixion, but there is no suggestion that it was specifically timed to occur then by God.  Rather, it's occurrence is taken as a sign from God, which is different to assuming that it was caused by God beyond the understanding that - as God created the universe - he was ultimately responsible for all natural events that occurred.

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... just as you do today - only now you make him responsible for causing the Big Bang etc.
Only now?  Remember that the 'Big Bang' is effectively trailed in Genesis chapter 1.  This material dates to at least 5 centuries before Jesus was born, so to suggest 'only now' is to miss the point.  In fact, this event actually highlights the difference between science, which seeks to answer questions such as 'how' and 'when' - and religion, which looks at the 'why'.

Hope, please tell me you are not saying the peasants 2000 years ago knew anything of the cause of tsunamis or earthquakes!  They were well read on tectonic plate theory then!

As for evidence - how well read do you think the Palestinian peasants were in 1715, which is only 300 years ago, so imagine how much they knew 2000 years ago!  Please don't ask me for evidence for such an obvious thing when you cannot give me a shred of evidence for the resurrection or even the existence of Jesus!  Waffling like that does you no credit whatsoever!

You tell me they thought God was responsible for everything and at the same time tell me they didn't hold him responsible for eclipses and comets!  You really should make up your mind before posting a reply, Hope!

Lastly, you now reckon that the poetic nonsense in Genesis in some way tells of the Big Bang!  Really?  You really think it was God clapping his hands!

Talk about infantile stuff, Hope!

floo

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #279 on: August 31, 2015, 11:21:37 AM »
The followers of Jesus come over as pretty gullible, ...
In what way(s)?  As pointed out elsewhere, you really love these massive 'brush-stroke' comments, without ever producing any evidence beyond your own experience - which, of course, has to be discounted according to many of those who share your views.

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just like many today who are swayed by the likes of  the scam merchant Benny Hinn.
And just how 'many' would that 'many' be, Floo?

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However, it would appear that his family and people in his home environment who knew him well didn't seem to rate him in the same way!
And how many successful people do you know whose 'family and people in (his) home environment' rated them as able to succeed in the way that they have?  Very few, I suspect.  It is a common trait that parents and others, one grows up amongst, underestimate one's abilities.

Actually all the people I know personally are proud of their children and their achievements, just as my husband and I are proud of ours.

It could be people who knew Jesus well realised that seeing wasn't always believing where the stunts he pulled were concerned. Some of the magic tricks done by magicians today are quite amazing until you know how it is done. Maybe Jesus was skilled at sleight of hand! Of course we will never know for sure as he is long dead.

Hope

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #280 on: August 31, 2015, 11:42:55 AM »
jj, it's interesting that during the early- to mid-2nd millennium AD many people here in the West 'discovered' things that, later, it was realised that the Ancient Chinese and other ancient civilisations had 'discovered' centuries earlier.  We in the West, aren't as advanced as we like to think - or at least we weren't until the middle of the last century.

In your post you mention tsunamis and whether 'the peasants 2000 years ago knew anything of the cause of tsunamis or earthquakes': in his 'History of the Peloponnesian War', Greek historian Thucydides wrote this about the Malian Gulf event that affected the course of that war.   
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The cause, in my opinion, of this phenomenon must be sought in the earthquake. At the point where its shock has been the most violent the sea is driven back, and suddenly recoiling with redoubled force, causes the inundation. Without an earthquake I do not see how such an accident could happen.
This was written in the early 5th century BC.  In view of the proximity to the Middle East it is quite possible that people would have had at least an inkling of this information.  OK, perhaps not the least educated, but then not many of the Jews were as uneducated as you like to make out.  The boys, at least, would have attended school where they learnt maths and other vocationally-appropriate stuff.  It was only the real high-flyers who would then go on to study theology and other more 'academic' subjects.
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Hope

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #281 on: August 31, 2015, 12:01:09 PM »
Actually all the people I know personally are proud of their children and their achievements, just as my husband and I are proud of ours.
That's all very easy to say in hindsight, Floo.  How many times did you say to one or more of your childen - whilst they were growing up - that perhaps they weren't cut out or have the abilities to be what ever they wanted to be at the time?

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It could be people who knew Jesus well realised that seeing wasn't always believing where the stunts he pulled were concerned.
And those stunts would have been what?  Remember that he taught by word of mouth more than he ever did by actions like miracles.

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Some of the magic tricks done by magicians today are quite amazing until you know how it is done.
There aren't many 'modern' magic tricks that don't date back to Jesus' day and before.  All that really changes over time is the technical gadgets that magicians have to assist them.  As such, there would have been magicians around at the time of Jesus' ministry, and there are even a couple of passages that compare him to magicians.  Generally, the indication is that what he did was way beyond anything any magician did.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 12:28:57 PM by Hope »
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2Corrie

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #282 on: August 31, 2015, 12:24:39 PM »
Floo, you do know that the brother (James) of our Lord Jesus was converted and became a leader in the Jerusalem church after the resurrection, don't you.  Most likely also his brother Jude, to whom some attribute the epistle bearing his name. James went on to be martyred.

You have to ask yourself why this would be if they just thought their brother was a fake.
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floo

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #283 on: August 31, 2015, 12:28:09 PM »
Actually all the people I know personally are proud of their children and their achievements, just as my husband and I are proud of ours.
That's all very easy to say in hindsight, Floo.  How many times did you say to one or more of your childen - whilst they were growing up - that perhaps they weren't cut out or have the abilities to be what ever they wanted to be at the time?

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It could be people who knew Jesus well realised that seeing wasn't always believing where the stunts he pulled were concerned.
And those stunts would have been what?  Remember that he taught by word of mouth than he ever did by actions like miracles.

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Some of the magic tricks done by magicians today are quite amazing until you know how it is done.
There aren't many 'modern' magic tricks that don't date back to Jesus' day and before.  All that really changes over time is the technical gadgets that magicians have to assist them.  As such, there would have been magicians around at the time of Jesus' ministry, and there are even a couple of passages that compare him to magicians.  Generally, the indication is that what he did was way beyond anything any magician did.

We would NEVER have put our children down in such a way, that would be very WRONG! >:( Besides which, our three girls have their father's brains and it was quite clear throughout their childhood years they would do well, which they have. Assuming you have children, I hope you have never put them down, in the way you suggested!

As for Jesus, if what he had to say was reported correctly, he did indeed say some sensible things, as well as things with which I would disagree. However, he could have got a kick out of illustrating his words with a bit of exhibitionism!

Hope

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #284 on: August 31, 2015, 12:38:48 PM »
We would NEVER have put our children down in such a way, that would be very WRONG! >:(
If you didn't suggest that, in your view, child X wasn't up to being a vet or a university lecturer, .... because their school grades wern't up to the requirements, you would (1) have been very unusual parents, (2) your husband would have been in contravention of educational principles - that a teacher is there, in part, to guide a student and (3) you would have been wrong - as parents - not to guide your children to some extent (I was going to use 'degree' but thought that that might be misconstrued! ;))

The very fact that you assume that I'm referring to putting a child 'down' show just how far you are from understanding what I was saying.

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As for Jesus, if what he had to say was reported correctly, he did indeed say some sensible things, as well as things with which I would disagree*. However, he could have got a kick out of illustrating his words with a bit of exhibitionism!
Obviously, you are talking from your own experience  ;)  How many times did Jesus tell people who wanted him to do a miracle that that wasn't what he was here to do.  An exhibitionist wouldn't take that approach.

Just as a matter of interest what would you say were examples of "as well as things with which I would disagree" (see purple asterisk)?
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jjohnjil

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #285 on: August 31, 2015, 12:45:11 PM »
jj, it's interesting that during the early- to mid-2nd millennium AD many people here in the West 'discovered' things that, later, it was realised that the Ancient Chinese and other ancient civilisations had 'discovered' centuries earlier.  We in the West, aren't as advanced as we like to think - or at least we weren't until the middle of the last century.

In your post you mention tsunamis and whether 'the peasants 2000 years ago knew anything of the cause of tsunamis or earthquakes': in his 'History of the Peloponnesian War', Greek historian Thucydides wrote this about the Malian Gulf event that affected the course of that war.   
Quote
The cause, in my opinion, of this phenomenon must be sought in the earthquake. At the point where its shock has been the most violent the sea is driven back, and suddenly recoiling with redoubled force, causes the inundation. Without an earthquake I do not see how such an accident could happen.
This was written in the early 5th century BC.  In view of the proximity to the Middle East it is quite possible that people would have had at least an inkling of this information.  OK, perhaps not the least educated, but then not many of the Jews were as uneducated as you like to make out.  The boys, at least, would have attended school where they learnt maths and other vocationally-appropriate stuff.  It was only the real high-flyers who would then go on to study theology and other more 'academic' subjects.

Come on, Hope, you know as well as anyone that the religious leaders for at least 1500 years after Christ dealt very harshly with anyone daring to suggest there was any natural cause for anything!  Many were burnt at the stake for questioning Godidit.  To say that the top Greek thinkers had suspicions of natural causes for different phenomenon means just that, nothing more. The ordinary people were ignorant of anything scientific and the church made sure they kept that way for millennia after. 

It just astonishes me that even today, the super hero has so many fans of people who obviously are well read and well educated.  I realise your faith must be a gret comfort to you but you really shouldn't argue that any of it makes real sense.

Hope

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #286 on: August 31, 2015, 01:12:21 PM »
Come on, Hope, you know as well as anyone that the religious leaders for at least 1500 years after Christ dealt very harshly with anyone daring to suggest there was any natural cause for anything!  Many were burnt at the stake for questioning Godidit.  To say that the top Greek thinkers had suspicions of natural causes for different phenomenon means just that, nothing more. The ordinary people were ignorant of anything scientific and the church made sure they kept that way for millennia after. 
jj, you seem to be very keen on changing the context. First, you talk about the ancients; then you talk about the peasants 2000 years ago; and then you talk about the church leadership in the first 1500 years of Christianity.  Let me jut clarify something for you regarding the latter; there is no evidence that the leadership of the Christian Church were against 'science' in whatever form it existed at the time until perhaps mid- to late-1st millennium, suggesting that the undoubted antagonism shown after that was not something intrinsic within Christianity.

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It just astonishes me that even today, the super hero has so many fans of people who obviously are well read and well educated.
Could it be that they are 'fans' as you call them, because of their being well-read and educated?

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I realise your faith must be a gret comfort to you ...
What makes you think that my 'faith must be a gret comfort to me'?  If anything it challenges me on a daily basis, so is possibly as far from being a 'comfort' as one can get.  The very fact that you have come out with this comment indicates to me that you don't actually have any idea about what faith is about. 

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... but you really shouldn't argue that any of it makes real sense.
So says the poster who has no real understanding of what faith is all about (see above).  I argue that it makes real sense because, as Vlad (?) put it elsewhere, the scientific sytem so beloved by some here doesn't fully satisfy the questions that I have about 'life, the universe and everything'.  There is no conflict between my faith and science; rather they deal with different, but contiguous issues.
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floo

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #287 on: August 31, 2015, 02:03:12 PM »
We would NEVER have put our children down in such a way, that would be very WRONG! >:(
If you didn't suggest that, in your view, child X wasn't up to being a vet or a university lecturer, .... because their school grades wern't up to the requirements, you would (1) have been very unusual parents, (2) your husband would have been in contravention of educational principles - that a teacher is there, in part, to guide a student and (3) you would have been wrong - as parents - not to guide your children to some extent (I was going to use 'degree' but thought that that might be misconstrued! ;))

The very fact that you assume that I'm referring to putting a child 'down' show just how far you are from understanding what I was saying.

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As for Jesus, if what he had to say was reported correctly, he did indeed say some sensible things, as well as things with which I would disagree*. However, he could have got a kick out of illustrating his words with a bit of exhibitionism!
Obviously, you are talking from your own experience  ;)  How many times did Jesus tell people who wanted him to do a miracle that that wasn't what he was here to do.  An exhibitionist wouldn't take that approach.

Just as a matter of interest what would you say were examples of "as well as things with which I would disagree" (see purple asterisk)?

In which case we were unusual parents. ::) We encouraged them rather than put them down. Academia was very important in our home, but you aren't going to have children doing well if you discourage them with negativity.

Hope

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #288 on: August 31, 2015, 02:22:53 PM »
We encouraged them rather than put them down.
Yet you're the one introducing the idea of putting them down, Floo.  You can encourage a child by steering them towards what they're good at, and away from what they're not so good at.  That has absolutely nothing to do with 'putting them down'

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Academia was very important in our home, but you aren't going to have children doing well if you discourage them with negativity.
Yet you're the one talking about negativity.
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Shaker

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #289 on: August 31, 2015, 02:39:06 PM »
Remember that the 'Big Bang' is effectively trailed in Genesis chapter 1.
I've seen some truly desperate attempts to crowbar science into religion in my time, but that one deserves some sort of prize.

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In fact, this event actually highlights the difference between science, which seeks to answer questions such as 'how' and 'when' - and religion, which looks at the 'why'.
Any nonsense will answer a 'why' question if you set the bar low enough, as religionists do.
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floo

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #290 on: August 31, 2015, 02:47:04 PM »
We encouraged them rather than put them down.
Yet you're the one introducing the idea of putting them down, Floo.  You can encourage a child by steering them towards what they're good at, and away from what they're not so good at.  That has absolutely nothing to do with 'putting them down'

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Academia was very important in our home, but you aren't going to have children doing well if you discourage them with negativity.
Yet you're the one talking about negativity.

Hope it was you who introduced the idea of putting kids down NOT me! Do you ever read your posts?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #291 on: August 31, 2015, 05:02:36 PM »
Remember that the 'Big Bang' is effectively trailed in Genesis chapter 1.
I've seen some truly desperate attempts to crowbar science into religion in my time, but that one deserves some sort of prize.

Shaker......like the style what about the substance?

Hope

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #292 on: August 31, 2015, 08:45:10 PM »
Hope it was you who introduced the idea of putting kids down NOT me! Do you ever read your posts?
Sorry Floo, but I've just reread not only my relevant posts, but also your relevant posts.  You introduced it in post #284.  In none of my preceding posts on the topic at hand had I even made a passing reference to putting children down.  What I said was (and I paraphrase) that, as parents, one of our roles is to guide our child(ren) to make realistic life-choices.  For instance, both our daughters had a hankering after becoming vets during the time we lived out in Nepal.   For the one, this could have been possible, just.  She would have had to have worked extremely hard on her Maths, something she is fairly weak in, and her Chemistry - something she quite willingly acknowledged she struggled with.  We were happy to run with the idea, but when her GCSE results came out it was clear that she was never going to make the required 3 A Grades in the Sciences at A-levels, so both the Careers Officer at school and her mother and I suggested that she looked in a different direction.  To be honest (one of her favourite phrases!!), she is far more cut out to be a creative person - and earlier this year she established her own card-making business.  It is still in its developmental stage, but seems to be beginning to catch on in the local area.  At no point did my wife or I, or her Careers Office at school, 'put her down': rather we dealt with the reality of what she is better at in the long term.

The other was absolutely brilliant at Drama and languages.  She eventually got a 2:1 degree in Drama at Hull University and had hoped to train as a special needs teacher.  In her first 2 teaching practices she was on A's; unfortunately, the headteacher of her final practice school took against here - she is somewhat unconventional when it comes to her dress sense and, combined with the fact that she arrived every morning on a bicycle, the head simply refused to allow her through the doors before she was a third of the way through that practice.  Unfortunately, because of the special needs nature of the school, she couldn't redo the practice in or near Hull.  She has since retrained as a foot health practitioner, and is slowly taking on more and more of the work of my wife's chiropody business.
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Hope

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #293 on: August 31, 2015, 08:55:31 PM »
Remember that the 'Big Bang' is effectively trailed in Genesis chapter 1.
I've seen some truly desperate attempts to crowbar science into religion in my time, but that one deserves some sort of prize.
Shaker, 'twas jj who introduced the Big Bang into the debate - post #275 - so I thought I'd add a bit of humour into the proceedings yet also point out to him that the whole issue of the origin of the universe was addressed - by the Bible - at least in Genesis 1.  Nothing to do with crowbarring anything.  If anything its you who have somehow had to find something to pick up on in my post - and done it fairly inadequately.

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Any nonsense will answer a 'why' question if you set the bar low enough, as religionists do.
At least its not set as low as some of your colleagues set it - by dismissing the 'why'.
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Shaker

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #294 on: August 31, 2015, 09:08:20 PM »
Shaker, 'twas jj who introduced the Big Bang into the debate - post #275
I wasn't commenting on that but on your asinine claim that the Big Bang was "effectively trailed" in Genesis 1.

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so I thought I'd add a bit of humour into the proceedings
Your attempts at humour are no laughing matter.


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yet also point out to him that the whole issue of the origin of the universe was addressed - by the Bible - at least in Genesis 1.
Ignorant ancient mythology.

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At least its not set as low as some of your colleagues set it - by dismissing the 'why'.
As you should know by now the mere ability to ask a 'why' question in no way entails that there's an answer, i.e. that it's even a meaningful question in the first place.

This is just one of a whole raft of things that you ought to know by now but appear not to.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 09:44:27 PM by Shaker »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #295 on: August 31, 2015, 09:23:49 PM »
.  In her first 2 teaching practices she was on A's; unfortunately, the headteacher of her final practice school took against here - she is somewhat unconventional when it comes to her dress sense and, combined with the fact that she arrived every morning on a bicycle, the head simply refused to allow her through the doors before she was a third of the way through that practice.  Unfortunately, because of the special needs nature of the school, she couldn't redo the practice in or near Hull.  She has since retrained as a foot health practitioner, and is slowly taking on more and more of the work of my wife's chiropody business.
Yes Macho headship through the nineties and noughties has contributed more than a fair share to the recruitment and retention crisis in schools. This wonderful secular libertarian society has and continues to see education off.

Dawkins contribution while charged with raising the public profile of science was to join the nasty humanist throng led by Chris Woodhead and weigh into teachers for not being antireligious..............sorry, Shaker......had to just slip that one in.

Shaker

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #296 on: August 31, 2015, 09:27:09 PM »
Secular - check.

Humanist - check.

Anti-religious - check.

Dawkins - check.

Apart from anti-theism and philosophical naturalism/materialism it's the usual checklist of your usual obsessions crowbarred into a thread for absolutely no other reason than the fact that you can't get them out of what passes for your brain. So it goes.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #297 on: August 31, 2015, 09:36:58 PM »
Secular - check.

Humanist - check.

Anti-religious - check.

Dawkins - check.

Apart from anti-theism and philosophical naturalism/materialism it's the usual checklist of your usual obsessions crowbarred into a thread for absolutely no other reason than the fact that you can't get them out of what passes for your brain. So it goes.
This is the religionethics board Shakes so the mention of any topic like education should be given a religion ethics stance.

Mention of Dawkins unethical demand of teachers........Check.

Shaker

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #298 on: August 31, 2015, 09:41:00 PM »
This is the religionethics board Shakes so the mention of any topic like education should be given a religion ethics stance.
We have a sports, hobbies and interests sub-forum - it's not compulsory to jemmy your creepy manias into every subject.

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Mention of Dawkins unethical demand of teachers........Check.
What "demand"?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Just supposing...........
« Reply #299 on: August 31, 2015, 09:46:36 PM »
This is the religionethics board Shakes so the mention of any topic like education should be given a religion ethics stance.
We have a sports, hobbies and interests sub-forum - it's not compulsory to jemmy your creepy manias into every subject.

Quote
Mention of Dawkins unethical demand of teachers........Check.
What "demand"?
Hast thou not watchest the Holy canon of Dawkins TV specials?