Children - religion the default position ?

[Shaker]

The more interesting question is why some continue to indulge fantasy beliefs into adulthood.

It seems to me that an increasing number of people are continuing to indulge in fantasy beliefs into adulthood.

And what research do you base that on?  Just an opinion?  Thought so.  So, useless.

Theist against theist again. Scrapscrapscrapscrapscrap!, as they used to say in the playgrounds of my youth

[BashfulAnthony]

The more interesting question is why some continue to indulge fantasy beliefs into adulthood.

It seems to me that an increasing number of people are continuing to indulge in fantasy beliefs into adulthood.

And what research do you base that on?  Just an opinion?  Thought so.  So, useless.

Theist against theist again. Scrapscrapscrapscrapscrap,  as they used to say in the playgrounds of my youth .

Don't ever say I accept everything fellow theists say, unlike atheists who all follow each other's opinions like sheep  -  baaa!

Wow!  What a memory!   

[jeremyp]

The more interesting question is why some continue to indulge fantasy beliefs into adulthood.

It seems to me that an increasing number of people are continuing to indulge in fantasy beliefs into adulthood.

And what research do you base that on?  Just an opinion?  Thought so.  So, useless.

Theist against theist again. Scrapscrapscrapscrapscrap!, as they used to say in the playgrounds of my youth

Yes, but in spite of the gratuitous insult, BA does have a point here.

[jeremyp]

The more interesting question is why some continue to indulge fantasy beliefs into adulthood.

It seems to me that an increasing number of people are continuing to indulge in fantasy beliefs into adulthood.

And what research do you base that on?  Just an opinion?  Thought so.  So, useless.

Theist against theist again. Scrapscrapscrapscrapscrap!

Don't ever say I accept everything fellow theists say, unlike atheists who all follow each other's opinions like sheep  -  baaa.

Really?  Have you never read a conversation between two atheists on this board where they disagree? 

[BashfulAnthony]

The more interesting question is why some continue to indulge fantasy beliefs into adulthood.

It seems to me that an increasing number of people are continuing to indulge in fantasy beliefs into adulthood.

And what research do you base that on?  Just an opinion?  Thought so.  So, useless.

Theist against theist again. Scrapscrapscrapscrapscrap!

Don't ever say I accept everything fellow theists say, unlike atheists who all follow each other's opinions like sheep  -  baaa.

Really?  Have you never read a conversation between two atheists on this board where they disagree?

None come to mind.  Any examples?

[SusanDoris]

I have read most of the OP and my first reaction is: that is quite wrong. For a start no human child can live without depending entirely on an adult keeping it alive. Therefore, long before such a child becomes even partly independent, s/he has had several years of input from his/her environment , and that includes ideas of all sorts of belief. Okay, I'll go back and read the last part of the OP and subsequent posts.

[SusanDoris]

HI Gonners,

The only thing it is scientific evidence for is that some children succumb to the religious brainwashing of their culture.

Since we already knew that, it seems like a monumental waste of time and money.

And, as I expected, I see already plenty of posts refuting the daft idea of this 'research'!

[torridon]

I have read most of the OP and my first reaction is: that is quite wrong. For a start no human child can live without depending entirely on an adult keeping it alive. Therefore, long before such a child becomes even partly independent, s/he has had several years of input from his/her environment , and that includes ideas of all sorts of belief. Okay, I'll go back and read the last part of the OP and subsequent posts.

I don't see any issue with recognising that children accept ideas about god readily.  It's consistent with the nature of childhood which is largely about allegory and fantasy. I used to tell my boys that a man in a red suit climbed down our chimney on Christmas Eve to deliver their presents.  This doesn't mean that theism is the default condition for humans, it just means that it is consistent with certain developmental stages. The source of real perennial bafflement for most atheists, is quite why for many people, the god beliefs do not eventually fade along with Santa Claus as they approach adulthood. I don't think we can put this all down to childhood indoctrination or cultural conditioning that is too simple. Religion in adults is a complex phenomenon requiring many answers, mostly I guess beyond the remit of this thread.

[BashfulAnthony]

I have read most of the OP and my first reaction is: that is quite wrong. For a start no human child can live without depending entirely on an adult keeping it alive. Therefore, long before such a child becomes even partly independent, s/he has had several years of input from his/her environment , and that includes ideas of all sorts of belief. Okay, I'll go back and read the last part of the OP and subsequent posts.

I don't see any issue with recognising that children accept ideas about god readily.  It's consistent with the nature of childhood which is largely about allegory and fantasy. I used to tell my boys that a man in a red suit climbed down our chimney on Christmas Eve to deliver their presents.  This doesn't mean that theism is the default condition for humans, it just means that it is consistent with certain developmental stages. The source of real perennial bafflement for most atheists, is quite why for many people, the god beliefs do not eventually fade along with Santa Claus as they approach adulthood. I don't think we can put this all down to childhood indoctrination or cultural conditioning that is too simple. Religion in adults is a complex phenomenon requiring many answers, mostly I guess beyond the r

Maybe they read the Bible, or whatever religion attracts them, and take it on board.  What is so baffling about that?

[SusanDoris]

BA #83

Why did you just copy the post and not add anything?

[BashfulAnthony]

BA #83

Why did you just copy the post and not add anything?

I've corrected it, SD

[Shaker]

He did, but made a bog of the quote - BA's comment is tacked onto the end, beginning "Maybe they read the Bible ..."

[torridon]

I have read most of the OP and my first reaction is: that is quite wrong. For a start no human child can live without depending entirely on an adult keeping it alive. Therefore, long before such a child becomes even partly independent, s/he has had several years of input from his/her environment , and that includes ideas of all sorts of belief. Okay, I'll go back and read the last part of the OP and subsequent posts.

I don't see any issue with recognising that children accept ideas about god readily.  It's consistent with the nature of childhood which is largely about allegory and fantasy. I used to tell my boys that a man in a red suit climbed down our chimney on Christmas Eve to deliver their presents.  This doesn't mean that theism is the default condition for humans, it just means that it is consistent with certain developmental stages. The source of real perennial bafflement for most atheists, is quite why for many people, the god beliefs do not eventually fade along with Santa Claus as they approach adulthood. I don't think we can put this all down to childhood indoctrination or cultural conditioning that is too simple. Religion in adults is a complex phenomenon requiring many answers, mostly I guess beyond the r

Maybe they read the Bible, or whatever religion attracts them, and take it on board.  What is so baffling about that?

Because the core beliefs are childlike in quality, being born of the naivety of prescientific cultures. Cosmologists and physicists try to understand what reality is all about, but they haven't come across a supreme being who wants to be my friend and will let me live with him forever if I believe in him. I keep having to pinch myself that so many people can entertain such beliefs in adulthood whilst in other areas they see the value of evidence and critical thinking.

[ProfessorDavey]

If their notion was correct we'd see loads of kids from non religious households ending up religious as adults. But we don't.

Don't we?  Over the decades, a lot of them seem happy to self-define as 'religious' as adults when completing censuses.  It's only within the last 10 to 20 years that this has become less prevalent.

Given that the census has only asked about religion twice in 2001 and 2011 your claim seems rather far fetched don't you think.

[ProfessorDavey]

we are born believers

No we aren't. That statement is complete non-sense.

There is no feasible way that a new born baby believes in god, or pretty much anything else. They have not developed that level of cognitive ability.

As to whether all new born babies are atheist depends rather on your definition. If it is simply not believing something (without necessarily having an understanding of the concept you don't believe in), a kind of passive non-belief then all new born babies are indeed atheist, as are non human animal species, plants, rocks, the sea etc etc.

But if you have an alternative approach to defining atheism as someone who recognises the concept of a god or gods but does not believe they exist, then new born babies are neither theist, nor atheist, but basically agnostic.

[ippy]

I saw this.

Which disputes the idea that atheism is the default position for children from birth

"

Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose.
He says that young children have faith even when they have not been taught about it by family or at school, and argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God.
"The preponderance of scientific evidence for the past 10 years or so has shown that a lot more seems to be built into the natural development of children's minds than we once thought, including a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
"If we threw a handful on an island and they raised themselves I think they would believe in God."
In a lecture to be given at the University of Cambridge's Faraday Institute on Tuesday, Dr Barrett will cite psychological experiments carried out on children that he says show they instinctively believe that almost everything has been designed with a specific purpose.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html

"
Here  is a bit about it from science daily

"A three-year international research project, directed by two academics at the University of Oxford, finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife.

The ｣1.9 million project involved 57 researchers who conducted over 40 separate studies in 20 countries representing a diverse range of cultures. The studies (both analytical and empirical) conclude that humans are predisposed to believe in gods and an afterlife, and that both theology and atheism are reasoned responses to what is a basic impulse of the human mind.

The researchers point out that the project was not setting out to prove the existence of god or otherwise, but sought to find out whether concepts such as gods and an afterlife appear to be entirely taught or basic expressions of human nature.

'The Cognition, Religion and Theology Project' led by Dr Justin Barrett, from the Centre for Anthropology and Mind at Oxford University, drew on research from a range of disciplines, including anthropology, psychology, philosophy, and theology. They directed an international body of researchers conducting studies in 20 different countries that represented both traditionally religious and atheist societies.

The findings are due to be published in two separate books by psychologist Dr Barrett in Cognitive Science, Religion and Theology and Born Believers: The Science of Childhood Religion."


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110714103828.htm

That throws a spanner in the idea atheism is the default position and children only become religious because they are brainwashed by society and parents.

I note you mention: "That throws a spanner in the idea atheism is the default position and children only become religious because they are brainwashed by society and parents".

Rose where are the places sited and how many are there set up to perform the torture necessary during the brainwashing processing of these children, or could it be you mean indoctrination?

ippy

[Gonnagle]

Dear Prof,

Good morning sir ( polite bit out of the way ) sorry but your post reads like you have all the answers, we don't.

Gonnagle.

[Sassy]

I saw this.

Which disputes the idea that atheism is the default position for children from birth

"

Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose.
He says that young children have faith even when they have not been taught about it by family or at school, and argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God.
"The preponderance of scientific evidence for the past 10 years or so has shown that a lot more seems to be built into the natural development of children's minds than we once thought, including a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
"If we threw a handful on an island and they raised themselves I think they would believe in God."
In a lecture to be given at the University of Cambridge's Faraday Institute on Tuesday, Dr Barrett will cite psychological experiments carried out on children that he says show they instinctively believe that almost everything has been designed with a specific purpose.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html

"
Here  is a bit about it from science daily

"A three-year international research project, directed by two academics at the University of Oxford, finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife.

The ｣1.9 million project involved 57 researchers who conducted over 40 separate studies in 20 countries representing a diverse range of cultures. The studies (both analytical and empirical) conclude that humans are predisposed to believe in gods and an afterlife, and that both theology and atheism are reasoned responses to what is a basic impulse of the human mind.

The researchers point out that the project was not setting out to prove the existence of god or otherwise, but sought to find out whether concepts such as gods and an afterlife appear to be entirely taught or basic expressions of human nature.

'The Cognition, Religion and Theology Project' led by Dr Justin Barrett, from the Centre for Anthropology and Mind at Oxford University, drew on research from a range of disciplines, including anthropology, psychology, philosophy, and theology. They directed an international body of researchers conducting studies in 20 different countries that represented both traditionally religious and atheist societies.

The findings are due to be published in two separate books by psychologist Dr Barrett in Cognitive Science, Religion and Theology and Born Believers: The Science of Childhood Religion."


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110714103828.htm

That throws a spanner in the idea atheism is the default position and children only become religious because they are brainwashed by society and parents.

Rose,
I can relate to this:

He says that young children have faith even when they have not been taught about it by family or at school, and argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God.

I knew their was a God and I have always believed that because of that people make a choice later in their life.
God has always been with me since a child. He never left me and luckily my partners never had a problem with my faith.

I think that Jesus comment of faith like a child is very relevant...

[SusanDoris]

BA and Shaker - Thank you.

Seems to me that those who say babies are born believers, or that humans have a brain cell which wants to believe in a God or something* are trhying to gloss over or disguise the biological facts about babies.

[jjohnjil]

BA and Shaker - Thank you.

Seems to me that those who say babies are born believers, or that humans have a brain cell which wants to believe in a God or something* are trhying to gloss over or disguise the biological facts about babies.

Hi Sue

Obviously babies are not born believers in the god of any religion, but I think as they begin to think about things they do expect there to be a purpose in everything and someone who is in charge of them.

This is probably because they have to rely on their parents/carers for everything and see  it as the way it has to be. 

Young kids always ask question after question and so that initial natural tendency to think there is an answer to everything means that when their parents answer them, that parent's views and beliefs get taken in. 

At school they are then taught about the school's beliefs, Christian, Muslim or whatever, so it isn't surprising that they put certain bones on those first tendencies and if their parents are religious, they will become religious themselves.

When my kids asked about this sort of thing I gave them my views, which opposed the teaching of their primary school, and so I suppose I indoctrinated mine just as much as the religious indoctrinate theirs.

[Leonard James]

When my kids asked about this sort of thing I gave them my views, which opposed the teaching of their primary school, and so I suppose I indoctrinated mine just as much as the religious indoctrinate theirs.

That would depend entirely on whether your kids considered their teacher's opinion more valid than yours, simply because he/she was a teacher and you weren't.

[BashfulAnthony]

BA and Shaker - Thank you.

Seems to me that those who say babies are born believers, or that humans have a brain cell which wants to believe in a God or something* are trhying to gloss over or disguise the biological facts about babies.

Hi Sue

Obviously babies are not born believers in the god of any religion, but I think as they begin to think about things they do expect there to be a purpose in everything and someone who is in charge of them.

This is probably because they have to rely on their parents/carers for everything and see  it as the way it has to be. 

Young kids always ask question after question and so that initial natural tendency to think there is an answer to everything means that when their parents answer them, that parent's views and beliefs get taken in. 

At school they are then taught about the school's beliefs, Christian, Muslim or whatever, so it isn't surprising that they put certain bones on those first tendencies and if their parents are religious, they will become religious themselves.

When my kids asked about this sort of thing I gave them my views, which opposed the teaching of their primary school, and so I suppose I indoctrinated mine just as much as the religious indoctrinate theirs.

Congratulations on making that admission  -  so, not all atheists are in denial as to their effect.

[jjohnjil]

BA and Shaker - Thank you.

Seems to me that those who say babies are born believers, or that humans have a brain cell which wants to believe in a God or something* are trhying to gloss over or disguise the biological facts about babies.

Hi Sue

Obviously babies are not born believers in the god of any religion, but I think as they begin to think about things they do expect there to be a purpose in everything and someone who is in charge of them.

This is probably because they have to rely on their parents/carers for everything and see  it as the way it has to be. 

Young kids always ask question after question and so that initial natural tendency to think there is an answer to everything means that when their parents answer them, that parent's views and beliefs get taken in. 

At school they are then taught about the school's beliefs, Christian, Muslim or whatever, so it isn't surprising that they put certain bones on those first tendencies and if their parents are religious, they will become religious themselves.

When my kids asked about this sort of thing I gave them my views, which opposed the teaching of their primary school, and so I suppose I indoctrinated mine just as much as the religious indoctrinate theirs.

Congratulations on making that admission  -  so, not all atheists are in denial as to their effect.

If any parent thinks they have no influence on what their kids think, they're kidding themselves.  As Len says though, outside of the home, they are given religious instruction at school so they have to work it out for themselves.

If parents and school agree though, they've no hope of getting an unbiased opinion and they're well on their way to become little Bashful Anthonys, Lord help them!.

[ProfessorDavey]

If parents and school agree though, they've no hope of getting an unbiased opinion and they're well on their way to become little Bashful Anthonys, Lord help them!.

Except they aren't.

Only half of children brought up in a religious household, so therefore likely to get reinforcement of the religious message both at school and at home (and likely as not at church too) end up religious as adult.

If one parent is religious and the other not, then that proportion falls to 25%.

Being non religious is readily tractable generation to generation, religion isn't, even when kids are specifically brought up to be religious.

And this is what makes the OP notion non-sense when it is actually 'tested' in the real world.

[Hope]

Being non religious is readily tractable generation to generation, religion isn't, even when kids are specifically brought up to be religious.

And this is what makes the OP notion non-sense when it is actually 'tested' in the real world.

PD, your comment that I've underlined can be taken to mean that the indoctrination that non-religious parents gave to their children is that much more effective than that of religious parents.  Could it suggest that they try to reduce the amount of freedom of thought their children are allowed to exercise?