Author Topic: Children - religion the default position ?  (Read 45365 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #125 on: July 06, 2015, 07:36:22 PM »
Dearly beloved,

Boy!! If ever a thread has went sideways, the OP, the study, the science is simply saying we are born believers, it does not say we are born believing in God or that kids are religious.

It's simple, we are mean seeking animals, if kids don't have an answer, Godidit.

It's a bloody human instinct, we all do it, how does that lightbulb work, magic, no! We all want to know, we all have inquiring minds.

Gonnagle.

We are not born believing anything, that is the point.

We are through evolution geared to accept what we are told so that we survive. Children at a young age just accept what you tell them. It is very important at that age NOT to tell them that there IS a god.
I suppose now you'll specially plead that it is important at that age to tell them there isn't a God.

Leonard James

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #126 on: July 06, 2015, 07:44:40 PM »
It is not wise to lie to children, for that will undermine their trust in you.

Jack Knave

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #127 on: July 06, 2015, 07:52:20 PM »
As my husband and I had been indoctrinated by religious parents, and lost our faith when we were mature enough to see its flaws, we decided that our kids would be free to follow their own path without any indoctrination from us. They attended church and Sunday school and decided Christianity suited them, we are grateful of course that they aren't Biblical literalists.
If they were brought up in a non religious household but have become religious as adults then they are a rare breed indeed - less than 3% will do that. Of course that doesn't mean kids that become religious following an upbringing in a non religious household don't exist (that would be non-sense to suggest) merely that it is a rare occurrence.
But that may be a function of our times. It would seem to me that many peasants of yesteryear were Christians because they had to be and that many didn't really care either way.

I forget the name but there was someone or group in the 13thC who didn't believe in a lot of what the church said. Laggards? But the more educated people even in those medieval days did rebel against all that God stuff.

I think the 3% doesn't show those who think about it but feel more inclined to follow the atheistic crowd of our present era.

Shaker

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #128 on: July 06, 2015, 07:57:44 PM »
What a low opinion you have of your fellow humans!  Whatever they are told when young, if they have half a brain, as they grow up, they will make up their own minds. It is arrogance, if not ignorance, to assume that people are so gullible when adult.
... except that there's such pitifully plentiful evidence of it. I wish I could say otherwise, but I can't.
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torridon

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #129 on: July 06, 2015, 08:21:06 PM »
Just goes to show that all religious people are just big kids!!!  ;D

But seriously folks, this is an interesting proposition.

Jungian psychology could of course explain why this is so.

not forgetting neoteny, also  ;)

torridon

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #130 on: July 06, 2015, 08:24:48 PM »

But that presupposes being brought up in our present world. The question would be what would happen if, as they say in the OP, people grew up on an island away from all civilised influences, including science and religions?

I would guess some basic form of paganism could develop just from our inquisitive human nature and projection of anthropomorphic tendencies.

Yes I would think so.  Cognitive biases like Agent Detection would come into play, new religions would form. Somebody ought to write a novel, Lord of the Flies, style.  Wigginhall, you da man.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #131 on: July 06, 2015, 08:35:51 PM »
Dear Berational,

Is it me!! The article is just about child development, it is not about God or religion.

On the contrary the point is that this guy seems to use standard child development studies to support a conclusion that there is a developmental default belief in god. And it is an enormous and completed unevidenced leap. There is nothing in studies that, for example, demonstrate that children at an early stage begin to recognise that an object placed behind a curtain hasn't disappeared but is, well, behind the curtain, remotely to support his conclusions.

In fact virtually all of the developmental experiments can be explained by combinations of the following:

1. The hugely complex cognitive development of the human brain requires learning and therefore human babies are born with little physical or mental abilities (compared to many other species) but learn massively in early weeks, months and years.

2. The first point makes the human baby extremely vulnerable so it is important evolutionarily that both parent and baby have a protection instinct that keeps baby close to adults.

3. Humans are social animals and therefore require interactions and comfort from other humans, both for protection and for development.

4. Humans, largely due to their exceptional cognitive capacity are both inherently inquisitive (which is important for survival) and emotionally advances (which supports their social behaviour, which is also important for survival and development).

All explained through classic survival and evolutionary needs - no magic sky fairy required although I have no doubt that the inquisitiveness coupled with a lack of rational understanding of the world around us may lead to the god of the gaps syndrome. But that's a massive jump away from a suggested default belief in god, which runs completely counter to the known evidence that without being brought up religious children are very unlikely simply to choose to be religious (even in a culture where evidence of religion is all around them).

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #132 on: July 06, 2015, 08:45:43 PM »
The question would be what would happen if, as they say in the OP, people grew up on an island away from all civilised influences, including science and religions?
But if you took a bunch of new born human babies free from any cultural conditioning and put them on a desert island, they'd die!

And this isn't a frivolous point. The point is that new born humans (unlike many other species) have no ability to survive unaided. They are entirely dependent on the input of older members of the species, who necessarily will have been exposed to the cultural and social norms of their group (or society) and will necessarily transfer that cultural, knowledge etc to the new born as they develop. And this is essential to the natural human development. So the notion of trying to determine the 'default' position of a human baby, detached from social and cultural norms is non-sensical because it doesn't actually exist in the real world for strong evolutionary reasons.

Gonnagle

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #133 on: July 06, 2015, 08:57:59 PM »
Dear Prof,

Shame! You were doing so well right up to magic sky fairy.

Sorry Prof but you are reading far to much into the research.

Kids want a reason for everything, every parent knows this, without a reasonable explanation, they will default to a outside force, Godidit.

I have had a quick google regarding this subject, this is not the only study which has come to this conclusion.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #134 on: July 06, 2015, 09:02:06 PM »
Dear Prof,

Shame! You were doing so well right up to magic sky fairy.

Sorry Prof but you are reading far to much into the research.

Kids want a reason for everything, every parent knows this, without a reasonable explanation, they will default to a outside force, Godidit.

I have had a quick google regarding this subject, this is not the only study which has come to this conclusion.

Gonnagle.
So you are recognising that the notion of god is therefore not a reasonable explanation for the world around us. You've got there in the end, well done.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #135 on: July 06, 2015, 09:06:51 PM »

Kids want a reason for everything, every parent knows this, without a reasonable explanation, they will default to a outside force, Godidit.

I am not sure I agree with you. For a child to conclude that godidit they need to have some concept of the notion of god, and they will only have that if that is implanted in their minds by social and cultural forces. It isn't a default, merely a facet of the prevailing culture.

Were there an anti rely atheist culture where the notion of god as a concept had long been forgotten and the society and culture was based on rationalism and science then I suspect the kids couldn't be concluding that godidit, but that physics-didit because that's what the cultural norm imposes on them.


Gonnagle

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #136 on: July 06, 2015, 09:21:33 PM »
Dear Prof,

No, I have no concept of God, except through the life and teachings of Our Lord.

The kid might call it God, but that concept could be lots of descriptions, kids don't have a working knowledge of how a tree grows, Godidit or their concept of God, of course it could be your wonderful description, magic sky fairy :(

Gonnagle.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #137 on: July 06, 2015, 09:25:58 PM »
Dear Prof,

No, I have no concept of God, except through the life and teachings of Our Lord.

The kid might call it God, but that concept could be lots of descriptions, kids don't have a working knowledge of how a tree grows, Godidit or their concept of God, of course it could be your wonderful description, magic sky fairy :(

Gonnagle.

Gonnagle.
I full understand that kids have no working knowledge of how a tree grows, but that doesn't mean they necessarily default to godidit - they could just as easily default to 'its nature', 'its magic' or (as mentioned earlier) 'it's physics' (or even the 'magic sky fairy'). But in order to default to any of those they need some notion of what those things are (in very broad brush terms) and they will get that from their culture and society.

But returning to the OP, this study (if you can call it that) try to suggest that developmental studies demonstrate that young children and babies attribute purpose and meaning to what they see about them, but I don't think that is necessarily the case. Indeed I think one of the joys of childhood is the ability to interact, enjoy and play without any notion of purpose or meaning.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 09:29:56 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Leonard James

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #138 on: July 06, 2015, 09:29:13 PM »
Dear Prof,

No, I have no concept of God, except through the life and teachings of Our Lord.


Gonnagle.

Can you tell me why you have elevated an intelligent human, a Jewish teacher, into "Our Lord"?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #139 on: July 06, 2015, 09:33:27 PM »
No, I have no concept of God, except through the life and teachings of Our Lord.
Which you acquired entirely independently of your cultural inheritance, or you acquired through your culture and society, for example by being taught about something called god, and amperson called Jesus and a book called the bible that you might want to (or be required to read) etc etc.

Your whole concept of your god and your religion is completely entwined within the prism of your societal and cultural heritage.

Gonnagle

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #140 on: July 06, 2015, 09:48:52 PM »
Dear Prof,

You are nearly there, a concept of God, nature.

Gonnagle.
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Gonnagle

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #141 on: July 06, 2015, 09:53:45 PM »
Dear Leonard,

I would love to explain why I use the term Our Lord but you are a highly intelligent and wonderful person, I will leave you to the joy of working it out for yourself :)

Gonnagle.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #142 on: July 06, 2015, 10:02:15 PM »
"Lord,"  does not mean God, as some think.   It simply means "master. " In the OT, even David is called "Lord."   It basically means that the person you address as Lord has power and authority over you.   Do some reading,

« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 10:36:46 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Gonnagle

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #143 on: July 06, 2015, 10:25:42 PM »
Dear Bashers,

Just Leonard being.... Well just Leonard.

Gonnagle.
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Owlswing

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #144 on: July 06, 2015, 11:21:38 PM »
"Lord,"  does not mean God, as some think.   It simply means "master. " In the OT, even David is called "Lord."   It basically means that the person you address as Lord has power and authority over you.   Do some reading,

But for the love of all that's holy DON'T DO YOUR READING ON BLOODY GOOGLE!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Shaker

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #145 on: July 06, 2015, 11:30:57 PM »
 ;D
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #146 on: July 07, 2015, 01:44:00 AM »
"Lord,"  does not mean God, as some think.   It simply means "master. " In the OT, even David is called "Lord."   It basically means that the person you address as Lord has power and authority over you.   Do some reading,

But for the love of all that's holy DON'T DO YOUR READING ON BLOODY GOOGLE!

I don't need to do that;  especially so with such a basic , simple, question.  Nor do I need to boost my ego by thinking up tatty and puerile new names all the time, just  for a little spurious attention  -  your hapless, sad, posts will do that effectively enough.

Iy's not you, is it Shaker, trying to score a cheap point!   ;D
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 02:08:24 AM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Leonard James

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #147 on: July 07, 2015, 06:04:08 AM »
Dear Leonard,

I would love to explain why I use the term Our Lord but you are a highly intelligent and wonderful person, I will leave you to the joy of working it out for yourself :)

Gonnagle.

But as an average intelligence, non-wonderful person, I'm afraid I can't 'work it out for myself'. If you can't be bothered to explain, I will understand.  :)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 07:48:01 AM by Leonard James »

SusanDoris

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #148 on: July 07, 2015, 06:17:15 AM »
Prof davey #131 and
#132

Excellent posts.
Dear Prof,

Shame! You were doing so well right up to magic sky fairy.

Sorry Prof but you are reading far to much into the research.

Kids want a reason for everything, every parent knows this, without a reasonable explanation, they will default to a outside force, Godidit.

I have had a quick google regarding this subject, this is not the only study which has come to this conclusion.

Gonnagle.
But it is you who are ignoring the basic biological facts - please read Prof Davey's posts 131 and 132 ten times each which are spot on. These basic biological facts are so often ignored or glossed over by writers of articles, religious pundits on BBC Radio 4's 'Thought for the day', etc. etc.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #149 on: July 07, 2015, 07:37:12 AM »
Dear Prof,

You are nearly there, a concept of God, nature.

Gonnagle.
Never had you down as a pantheist gonners.

But why can't the awe inspiring power of nature be just that ... nature. Why do some people feel the need to devalue and anthropomorphise it by equating it to something man-made, namely god.