Author Topic: Children - religion the default position ?  (Read 45342 times)

Hope

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #150 on: July 07, 2015, 08:15:07 AM »
Why do some people feel the need to devalue and anthropomorphise it by equating it to something man-made, namely god.
Because we aren't 'anthropomorphising it by equating it to something man-made, namely god'.  That's what folk like yourself do, which not only devalues nature but also humanity as part of nature.
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Hope

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #151 on: July 07, 2015, 08:21:08 AM »
It is not wise to lie to children, for that will undermine their trust in you.
I would agrre wholeheartedly, Len, which is why children need to be given the opportunity to learn about the whole range of world-views available to them, not just one or two.  That is what I mean when I talk about passive indoctrination - failing to teach them about the various world-views that exist around the world (something that has happened to the children of several atheist, and theist, families we know) is no less indoctrination than teaching only one.
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SusanDoris

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #152 on: July 07, 2015, 08:30:11 AM »
Hope

Do you then, when giving children information about other world religions, tell children that the God [you believe in is true, that the words of the Bible are his direct words, that gods of other religions are not true, etc? I find it very hard to see you giving an impartial opinion! :)
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Hope

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #153 on: July 07, 2015, 08:49:31 AM »
Hope

Do you then, when giving children information about other world religions, tell children that the God [you believe in is true, that the words of the Bible are his direct words, that gods of other religions are not true, etc? I find it very hard to see you giving an impartial opinion! :)
As a teacher, Susan, I wouldn't even attempt to make a true/false judgement, simply telling the children the facts about the various faiths that a syllabus covers.

As a youth worker at church, I tell children that X is what Christians believe, that Y is what many of their peers at school are likely to believe and - if the context of the event is right - A, B and C is what Muslims, Hindus or atheists (pick any three belief-systems you want here) believe.  I make it very clear that I believe X because my study of the varied materials I have had access to over almost 60 years of life, coupled with the wide variety of experiences I've had, indicate that X fits the reality of life best, but then make it clear that they have got to make their own choice, having studied and investigated for themselves.  I also make it very clear that just because their parents/guardians are (or claim to be) Christian, Muslim, Atheist, whatever doesn't mean that they are Christian, Muslim, Atheist, whatever.  Faith (and I intentionally include atheism within that term and specify this) is not something one 'inherits'.

As a parent, especially living a lot of our children's formative years within a majority Hindu/Buddhist culture in Nepal), my wife and I allowed our children to explore and question not only the physical world around us but also the philosophical world in which they found themselves.  I know of a few parents who wouldn't allow their children to play with local kids, but we weren't like that - especially as for half our time there, we lived within spitting distance of a major abattoir (to use Western terminology!!  ;) ) the area around which was populated by untouchables and other very low-caste families.

To pick up on something on another thread, I often think those who are poorest are those who don't even attempt to question what parents and teachers teach them.

OK, that may come as quite a shock to you, but it is how I was brought up within an evangelical family setting, which was then combined with a somewhat higher ecclesiastical but academically robust school setting.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 08:55:44 AM by Hope »
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Leonard James

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #154 on: July 07, 2015, 09:12:04 AM »
It is not wise to lie to children, for that will undermine their trust in you.
I would agrre wholeheartedly, Len, which is why children need to be given the opportunity to learn about the whole range of world-views available to them, not just one or two.  That is what I mean when I talk about passive indoctrination - failing to teach them about the various world-views that exist around the world (something that has happened to the children of several atheist, and theist, families we know) is no less indoctrination than teaching only one.

But then you say :-

"I make it very clear that I believe X because my study of the varied materials I have had access to over almost 60 years of life, coupled with the wide variety of experiences I've had, indicate that X fits the reality of life best, but then make it clear that they have got to make their own choice, having studied and investigated for themselves."

Would you not agree that in saying the above you are persuading them to believe what you believe, especially those that don't have the facilities or desire to study and investigate for themselves?

Hope

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #155 on: July 07, 2015, 09:17:35 AM »
Would you not agree that in saying the above you are persuading them to believe what you believe, especially those that don't have the facilities or desire to study and investigate for themselves?
No more so than anyone else explaining why they believe something.
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BeRational

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #156 on: July 07, 2015, 09:23:11 AM »
Would you not agree that in saying the above you are persuading them to believe what you believe, especially those that don't have the facilities or desire to study and investigate for themselves?
No more so than anyone else explaining why they believe something.

But on a question like this, the only true answer is "Don't know".

What caused the universe to exist? Don't know.
Why are the laws of physics as they are? Don't know.
What caused the first life from non life? Don't know.
Is there life on other planets? Don't know.

Not interesting perhaps, but TRUE.

Anything you add to those answers should NOT give the impression you know more than you do, or even mention a god.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Leonard James

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #157 on: July 07, 2015, 09:25:20 AM »
Would you not agree that in saying the above you are persuading them to believe what you believe, especially those that don't have the facilities or desire to study and investigate for themselves?
No more so than anyone else explaining why they believe something.

So a teacher talking to his students in class has no more influence over them than he has in a discussion on the subject with another adult? I'm sorry, Hope, but that is nonsense.

Owlswing

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #158 on: July 07, 2015, 10:46:24 AM »
"Lord,"  does not mean God, as some think.   It simply means "master. " In the OT, even David is called "Lord."   It basically means that the person you address as Lord has power and authority over you.   Do some reading,

But for the love of all that's holy DON'T DO YOUR READING ON BLOODY GOOGLE!

I don't need to do that;  especially so with such a basic , simple, question.  Nor do I need to boost my ego by thinking up tatty and puerile new names all the time, just  for a little spurious attention  -  your hapless, sad, posts will do that effectively enough.

Iy's not you, is it Shaker, trying to score a cheap point!   ;D

Listen to me you hapless, sad little Google-hating jealous of anyone who retains knowledge greater than yours in their heads poster - I have no need to boost my ego by thinking up tatty and puerile new names all the time for any reason - I have just returned to my old BBC R and E moniker!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #159 on: July 07, 2015, 11:14:07 AM »
Hope

Do you then, when giving children information about other world religions, tell children that the God [you believe in is true, that the words of the Bible are his direct words, that gods of other religions are not true, etc? I find it very hard to see you giving an impartial opinion! :)
As a teacher, Susan, I wouldn't even attempt to make a true/false judgement, simply telling the children the facts about the various faiths that a syllabus covers.

As a youth worker at church, I tell children that X is what Christians believe, that Y is what many of their peers at school are likely to believe and - if the context of the event is right - A, B and C is what Muslims, Hindus or atheists (pick any three belief-systems you want here) believe.  I make it very clear that I believe X because my study of the varied materials I have had access to over almost 60 years of life, coupled with the wide variety of experiences I've had, indicate that X fits the reality of life best, but then make it clear that they have got to make their own choice, having studied and investigated for themselves.  I also make it very clear that just because their parents/guardians are (or claim to be) Christian, Muslim, Atheist, whatever doesn't mean that they are Christian, Muslim, Atheist, whatever.  Faith (and I intentionally include atheism within that term and specify this) is not something one 'inherits'.

As a parent, especially living a lot of our children's formative years within a majority Hindu/Buddhist culture in Nepal), my wife and I allowed our children to explore and question not only the physical world around us but also the philosophical world in which they found themselves.  I know of a few parents who wouldn't allow their children to play with local kids, but we weren't like that - especially as for half our time there, we lived within spitting distance of a major abattoir (to use Western terminology!!  ;) ) the area around which was populated by untouchables and other very low-caste families.

To pick up on something on another thread, I often think those who are poorest are those who don't even attempt to question what parents and teachers teach them.

OK, that may come as quite a shock to you, but it is how I was brought up within an evangelical family setting, which was then combined with a somewhat higher ecclesiastical but academically robust school setting.
I think most of what you say sounds eminently reasonable, but there are a couple of flies in the anointment.

The most obvious being the effect of a schooling within a setting which is inherently non neutral. So if you attend a faith school, no matter how neutral the on the ground approach may appear to be there is the (perhaps unspoken) backdrop that as an organisation or community 'we believe this version is right' - that's is a necessary component of a faith ethos. And of course that might be a faith school or a educational group within a church.

And you often see all sorts of subtle, but important language that reinforces the 'but this is we believe as an organisation or community' - the most common being a non neutral approach to christianity in relation to non christian religions and non religious belief. Check out the RE curriculum of many faith schools and you will see material about christianity simply mentioned as christianity, while non christian religions are described as 'other' religions. The emphasis is important.

So the subtle but pervasive view is non neutral - in other words 'sure you can learn about these other religions too, but we know which one we really believe and you are being taught top believe'. And of course if this is reinforce by organised involvement in christian worship then there is further reinforcement.

And that's why I think schooling (well in reality state funded schooling) must be neutral with regard to religion, just as it is required to be with regard to political views. Only through that route can students fully benefit from learning in a neutral manner without subtle bias. And only in that neutral setting are they fully free to question and challenge free from any concern that their view might run counter to the religious ethos of that school.

Outside of the state sector things are somewhat different although I do think that schools (whether state or private) should be required to uphold the same best practice on discrimination was any other organisations. So a faith school would be one which provided education with a particular faith ethos, but not one that prioritises children of that particular faith in its admissions.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 11:18:53 AM by ProfessorDavey »

SusanDoris

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #160 on: July 07, 2015, 01:03:45 PM »
Thank  you for your reply, Hope, but I much prefer LJ's, BR's and ProfD's posts!
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Hope

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #161 on: July 07, 2015, 01:41:18 PM »
The most obvious being the effect of a schooling within a setting which is inherently non neutral. So if you attend a faith school, no matter how neutral the on the ground approach may appear to be there is the (perhaps unspoken) backdrop that as an organisation or community 'we believe this version is right' - that's is a necessary component of a faith ethos. And of course that might be a faith school or a educational group within a church.
Well, I have never taught in a faith school, so that fly is somewhat irrelevant.  Regarding the second, it applies to any such organisation, not just a church or religious one.

Quote
And you often see all sorts of subtle, but important language that reinforces the 'but this is we believe as an organisation or community' - the most common being a non neutral approach to christianity in relation to non christian religions and non religious belief. Check out the RE curriculum of many faith schools and you will see material about christianity simply mentioned as christianity, while non christian religions are described as 'other' religions. The emphasis is important.

So the subtle but pervasive view is non neutral - in other words 'sure you can learn about these other religions too, but we know which one we really believe and you are being taught top believe'. And of course if this is reinforce by organised involvement in christian worship then there is further reinforcement.
You can see the same in most science and social science curricula as well, PD.

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And that's why I think schooling (well in reality state funded schooling) must be neutral with regard to religion, just as it is required to be with regard to political views. Only through that route can students fully benefit from learning in a neutral manner without subtle bias. And only in that neutral setting are they fully free to question and challenge free from any concern that their view might run counter to the religious ethos of that school.
It is sometimes neutral in regard to politics, but rarely neutral in regard to belief systems.  Take religious issues out of the process and it will be even less neutral.

Quote
Outside of the state sector things are somewhat different although I do think that schools (whether state or private) should be required to uphold the same best practice on discrimination was any other organisations. So a faith school would be one which provided education with a particular faith ethos, but not one that prioritises children of that particular faith in its admissions.
Who does the prioritising, the children's parents or the school?
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Hope

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #162 on: July 07, 2015, 01:44:51 PM »
Thank  you for your reply, Hope, but I much prefer LJ's, BR's and ProfD's posts!
Of course you do.  They simply confirm your existing bias.
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floo

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #163 on: July 07, 2015, 01:51:39 PM »
I have said it before and will say it again, what is the point of having a religious faith unless it makes you a better person? The 'born again' dogma often encourages people to be bigoted and emotionally abusive!

BeRational

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #164 on: July 07, 2015, 01:59:42 PM »
Thank  you for your reply, Hope, but I much prefer LJ's, BR's and ProfD's posts!
Of course you do.  They simply confirm your existing bias.

I have only a bias for truth.

I would rather have no answer, than the wrong answer.

You are not like me.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Samuel

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #165 on: July 07, 2015, 02:10:30 PM »
The question would be what would happen if, as they say in the OP, people grew up on an island away from all civilised influences, including science and religions?
But if you took a bunch of new born human babies free from any cultural conditioning and put them on a desert island, they'd die!

And this isn't a frivolous point. The point is that new born humans (unlike many other species) have no ability to survive unaided. They are entirely dependent on the input of older members of the species, who necessarily will have been exposed to the cultural and social norms of their group (or society) and will necessarily transfer that cultural, knowledge etc to the new born as they develop. And this is essential to the natural human development. So the notion of trying to determine the 'default' position of a human baby, detached from social and cultural norms is non-sensical because it doesn't actually exist in the real world for strong evolutionary reasons.

I couldn't quite follow your argument Prof untill this post. Nice one. Picking up though on those statistics around how it plays out in the real world is a there a clear distinction made around what is meant by children growing up to become 'religious'?

I'm just wondering how those people figure who don't ascribe to a particular religion but retain some notion of the supernatural at work e.g. an afterlife, or 'higher power'. You know the sort -  poorly thought out, unspecific and ill defined ideas - could they be seen as a reversion to that vague predisposition highlighted by the research in the OP? So they would fall into the category of non-religious / non-believer but nevertheless retain ideas about 'god' (whatever that is).


A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

Hope

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #166 on: July 07, 2015, 02:24:40 PM »
You are not like me.
No-one said you are.  All I said was that Susan prefers your posts and those of LJ and PD because they confirm her existing bias.
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BeRational

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #167 on: July 07, 2015, 02:44:14 PM »
You are not like me.
No-one said you are.  All I said was that Susan prefers your posts and those of LJ and PD because they confirm her existing bias.

Surely, a bias for truth is a good thing?

I see gullible people, everywhere!

SusanDoris

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #168 on: July 07, 2015, 02:51:09 PM »
But it's an opinion backed up by independent, objective evidence, not jjust a subjective bias; nowhere do I have faith in or believe something that has zero objective evidence. As BR said, the answer is 'don't know' if evidence is lacking, although many of these subjects have a lot of testable evidence, if not the complete picture. They are not complete blanks.

By the way, well said, BR.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #169 on: July 07, 2015, 03:38:15 PM »
The most obvious being the effect of a schooling within a setting which is inherently non neutral. So if you attend a faith school, no matter how neutral the on the ground approach may appear to be there is the (perhaps unspoken) backdrop that as an organisation or community 'we believe this version is right' - that's is a necessary component of a faith ethos. And of course that might be a faith school or a educational group within a church.
Well, I have never taught in a faith school, so that fly is somewhat irrelevant.  Regarding the second, it applies to any such organisation, not just a church or religious one.
I haven't taught in any school, although do in a university, but that does't necessary mean I don't have a level of awareness of what may go on in faith schools. Indeed I have close relatives being schooled in Catholic faith schools who are similar age to my kids and trust me their school is a very, very long way from being neutral with regard to religion. Their schooling is partly about nurturing their 'catholic faith' - the terminology is all about 'our faith', 'our beliefs' with very very occasional lip service paid to 'others' faiths', not even other faiths (note the difference).

I'm not aware of any other type of state school that claims the kind of distinct and partial ethos that exists with faith schools.

And you often see all sorts of subtle, but important language that reinforces the 'but this is we believe as an organisation or community' - the most common being a non neutral approach to christianity in relation to non christian religions and non religious belief. Check out the RE curriculum of many faith schools and you will see material about christianity simply mentioned as christianity, while non christian religions are described as 'other' religions. The emphasis is important.

So the subtle but pervasive view is non neutral - in other words 'sure you can learn about these other religions too, but we know which one we really believe and you are being taught top believe'. And of course if this is reinforce by organised involvement in christian worship then there is further reinforcement.
You can see the same in most science and social science curricula as well, PD.
But the science curriculum is evidence based not opinion based. If you teach that hydrogen burns with a squeaky pop and provide the relevant equation for the combustion then that can be proven to be true. Sure the science is often dumbed down a bit to aid understanding, but it is demonstrably true. That is a world away from an opinion, whether religious or political where there is no demonstration of 'truth'. In that case I feel it is important that children learn about the range of view and probe and challenge the various types of thinking but in a manner that does not presume one opinion to be 'right' or 'our belief' as opposed to 'others' belief' (see above)

And that's why I think schooling (well in reality state funded schooling) must be neutral with regard to religion, just as it is required to be with regard to political views. Only through that route can students fully benefit from learning in a neutral manner without subtle bias. And only in that neutral setting are they fully free to question and challenge free from any concern that their view might run counter to the religious ethos of that school.
It is sometimes neutral in regard to politics, but rarely neutral in regard to belief systems.  Take religious issues out of the process and it will be even less neutral.
I don't understand you. Why is schooling not neutral in terms of belief. If children are being taught about a range of religions and what they might believe without a suggestion that one is preferred, correct, ours or right, why is that anything other than neutral. And again I don't understand what you mean about being less balanced if you don't discuss religion in schools. Something can be balanced if you discuss it and include discussions of many opinions and options. It can also be balanced if you discuss none of the opinions.

Outside of the state sector things are somewhat different although I do think that schools (whether state or private) should be required to uphold the same best practice on discrimination was any other organisations. So a faith school would be one which provided education with a particular faith ethos, but not one that prioritises children of that particular faith in its admissions.
Who does the prioritising, the children's parents or the school?
Well I guess this is through classic market forces. A school in the private sector that charges fees does sets out its ethos a parents will pay their money or not on the basis of the type of education that school provides. And if the school is oversubscribed then criteria would need to be developed that don't run counter to standard equalities approach, so race, sexuality or religion for example wouldn't be able to use. A bit like a 'gay club' - it can market itself as providing a service which is particularly attractive to gay people, but it cannot by law refuse entry to people who aren't gay.

Hope

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #170 on: July 07, 2015, 04:23:31 PM »
I haven't taught in any school, although do in a university, but that does't necessary mean I don't have a level of awareness of what may go on in faith schools.
Susan asked me what I did  - not what the generality of teachers/youth workers do, PD.  Of course I know what goes on in faith schools - but I also know what goes on in state schools - I've had to teach some of the material, even though at times it has conflicted with my opinion and/or worldview.  In fact, many teachers have to teach material that conflicts with what they believe in some way or another, be that the sciences of the humanities.

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I'm not aware of any other type of state school that claims the kind of distinct and partial ethos that exists with faith schools.
I have yet to teach in any state school that doesn't - through what it offers as extra-curricula topics, its prizes and awards, its general ethos - give the impression that modern scientific thinking is the only way forward for society and the chidren going through it.

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But the science curriculum is evidence based not opinion based. If you teach that hydrogen burns with a squeaky pop and provide the relevant equation for the combustion then that can be proven to be true.
But most science and other curricula include subjective ideas that impose specific understandings on the children being taught.  For instance, when it comes to teaching evolution, the language required by teachers is that this is the only way to explain our existence.  There is no encouragement for students to explore whether the claim is true.  To use the term so beloved by ippy, this sounds very much like indoctrination ;).   Your example of hydrogen burning is very different from the philosophical nature of human existence, discussion of which rarely occurs at any level of scientific education.

I don't understand you. Why is schooling not neutral in terms of belief. If children are being taught about a range of religions and what they might believe without a suggestion that one is preferred, correct, ours or right, why is that anything other than neutral.
If, being the pertinent word.  As pointed out in the previous paragraph, modern education is largely about instilling ideas and 'truths' without encouraging students to challenge them when it comes to scientific thinking.

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It can also be balanced if you discuss none of the opinions.
but which schools ever teach none of the options?  See above again.

Quote
A school in the private sector that charges fees does sets out its ethos a parents will pay their money or not on the basis of the type of education that school provides. And if the school is oversubscribed then criteria would need to be developed that don't run counter to standard equalities approach, so race, sexuality or religion for example wouldn't be able to use.
I attended an independent secondary school in Oxford which was an Anglican foundation.  I didn't know every parent, obviously, but I knew many of the parents of the lads in my house.  I would say that 1 student in 15 came from a family that would have regarded itself as a practising Christian family.  Nominal, yes; practising, no.  As an Anglican foundation, one of the standard events was the confirmation service in chapel at the end of one's first year.  As the son of an Anglican clergyman, I was asked to do one of the readings at 'my' service.  Both the chaplain and the headmaster were 'shocked' when I not only refused to do the reading, but said that I woudn't be attending the service because I didn't feel that I was ready to 'confirm' any faith position.

Interestingly, when my elder brother and I asked Dad, when we had both left school) why he'd chosen to send us to that particular school (and the prep. school we'd both attended until we were 12/13), the things he listed were the academic and the sporting records of the schools.  The fact that both schools were considerably 'higher' - in ecclesiastical/theological terms - than we were as a family was irrelevant, as was the religious element.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 04:25:43 PM by Hope »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #171 on: July 07, 2015, 04:45:03 PM »
Of course I know what goes on in faith schools - but I also know what goes on in state schools
You do understand that most faith schools (certainly the ones I was focussing on) are state schools.


I have yet to teach in any state school that doesn't - through what it offers as extra-curricula topics, its prizes and awards, its general ethos - give the impression that modern scientific thinking is the only way forward for society and the chidren going through it.
Yet the scientific profession is regularly concerned about the lack of positivity towards science in the school classroom and the effect that has on students studying science later on. Rather than an ethos of 'science is right and the future' I think the ethos (sadly) in too many schools is that science is hard, and also predominantly for boys.

But on a broader point there are plenty of officially faith ethos state schools, can you point me to a state school that officially espouses a 'science ethos' (and I don't mean a science specialism - that's different).

Your example of hydrogen burning is very different from the philosophical nature of human existence, discussion of which rarely occurs at any level of scientific education.
Well of course it in unlikely there will be much space for philosophy in a science curriculum, just as there isn't much organic chemistry in a history curriculum. But perhaps you'd like to come along to my ethics course which is compulsory for a number of our postgraduate programmes. We discuss (albeit with rather limited time) issues relating to personhood and the moral status of the early human embryo as part of the curriculum pertaining to embryonic stem cell research.

I attended an independent secondary school in Oxford which was an Anglican foundation.  I didn't know every parent, obviously, but I knew many of the parents of the lads in my house.  I would say that 1 student in 15 came from a family that would have regarded itself as a practising Christian family.  Nominal, yes; practising, no.  As an Anglican foundation, one of the standard events was the confirmation service in chapel at the end of one's first year.  As the son of an Anglican clergyman, I was asked to do one of the readings at 'my' service.  Both the chaplain and the headmaster were 'shocked' when I not only refused to do the reading, but said that I woudn't be attending the service because I didn't feel that I was ready to 'confirm' any faith position.

Interestingly, when my elder brother and I asked Dad, when we had both left school) why he'd chosen to send us to that particular school (and the prep. school we'd both attended until we were 12/13), the things he listed were the academic and the sporting records of the schools.  The fact that both schools were considerably 'higher' - in ecclesiastical/theological terms - than we were as a family was irrelevant, as was the religious element.
Interesting and not uncommon. I've seen plenty of parents be prepared to disregard the ethos of a school (and justify it in all sorts of ways) if it has a good academic reputation. And it cuts both ways, of course. Round my way the non faith state secondary schools have the better academic reputations and you get a lot of very committed churchgoers who felt it really important to have a faith school at primary school suddenly go cold on the idea at secondary school when they understand that the local CofE school and mixed RC school aren't rated highly.

Shaker

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #172 on: July 07, 2015, 04:54:04 PM »
Rather than an ethos of 'science is right and the future' I think the ethos (sadly) in too many schools is that science is hard

That's not wrong though, is it? Science is hard. That's why so many people have such trouble with it.

Unfortunately, all too often it's the same people who try to invoke it and make such a bog of it. (Creationists/IDers, for example).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gonnagle

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #173 on: July 07, 2015, 04:55:41 PM »
Dear Prof,

Me again, yer auld pal Gonnagle, well I have had a good trawl of the internet ( not that the internet is the be all and end all ) but apart from your good self I can't find anyone arguing against the findings of the research, in fact it seems to me that on the back of the book ( Science and Childhood Religion ) written because of the research a lot of scientific research has built on it.

Gonnagle.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Children - religion the default position ?
« Reply #174 on: July 07, 2015, 04:57:32 PM »
That's not wrong though, is it? Science is hard. That's why so many people have such trouble with it.
It depends on the person. There are plenty of people who find English hard, or a foreign language but find science pretty straightforward. Yet I don't think there tends to be a similar view out there that French is hard or history, yet there may be just as many kids who find that difficult in comparison to science as vice versa.