Praying at work!

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Some people are beginning to pray at the workplace...in China too! They seem to be more devout than many traditional Christians in the West...!

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33405579

****************************************************************************

Saying prayers with colleagues would feel a bit uncomfortable, too intimate an activity in the workplace for many people.

Yet at Chinese real estate giant Tentimes Group, that is exactly what they do in the boardroom before making important decisions.

Three-quarters of the firm's eight-strong senior management team are Christians and founder and chairman Wang Ruoxiong, who himself became a Christian seven years ago, says that when the company has to make difficult decisions, it turns to the Bible for guidance.

In fact, he goes as far to say that it's not him but God running the firm.

"He controls everything. I am merely a housekeeper of Jesus, assisting him in taking care of the company," he says.

While for many, "love" at work may seem equally inappropriate, Mr Robb believes that a softer approach from those at the top, emphasising that the firm is part of a larger world with wider responsibilities, can be very powerful.

He recalls recently holding his granddaughter for the first time, reminding him of holding his own children when they were young, as an explanation for the feeling.

"That depth of feeling in your heart, your capacity to bring that to your work as a leader, your capacity to develop that capability in the organisation and to celebrate it, to reward it, to acknowledge it, to model it.

"Those sorts of things are part of creating a wider vessel and not a narrower vessel. And to the extent that that's spiritual, then I think that's a good thing."

******************************************************************************

A very novel approach...I think. I like it.  Better than the robotic mindset encouraged by western cultures...IMO

And atheists believe that religion is only for uneducated poor people!!!! 

Any views?

Cheers.

Sriram

[Leonard James]

Yes, Sriram. My view is that if you really think that

"atheists believe that religion is only for uneducated poor people!!!"

you are more deluded than I took you to be.

[Sriram]

Yes, Sriram. My view is that if you really think that

"atheists believe that religion is only for uneducated poor people!!!"

you are more deluded than I took you to be.

Well...many of you (may be not all atheists) have said so on here several times. Many atheists have even tried to 'prove' it with statistics many times here.....I remember.  Why are you so shocked by that?!

[Leonard James]

Yes, Sriram. My view is that if you really think that

"atheists believe that religion is only for uneducated poor people!!!"

you are more deluded than I took you to be.

Well...many of you (may be not all atheists) have said so on here several times. Many atheists have even tried to 'prove' it with statistics many times here.....I remember.  Why are you so shocked by that?!

I can't speak for any other atheist, but my view is that poor people. who can see the lives of luxury that rich people lead, are more likely to fall prey to Christian promises of a better life in heaven with "God" after they die.

[Hope]

Yes, Sriram. My view is that if you really think that

"atheists believe that religion is only for uneducated poor people!!!"

you are more deluded than I took you to be.

Len, I know of plenty of people on a variety of forums who have used the fact that the early church was predominantly made up of 'uneducated poor people' to suggest that the modern church is made up of similar people.  Perhaps not poor in terms of money (though globally, there are millions of Christians who are on the edge of poverty), but more poor in mental acuity and understanding of what those critics regard as 'real life'.  Perhaps not uneducated, it that many in the West have high educational qualifications, but are deemed to have a lack of discrimination between 'real things' and so-called 'fables' and 'myths'.  It happens on this forum on a regular basis.

It is partly why I sometimes respond to such criticisms by suggesting that the critics are the ones who are poor and uneducated, because they seem to view life and 'reality' in a flatter, less multi-dimensional way that those with a faith.

[Hope]

I can't speak for any other atheist, but my view is that poor people. who can see the lives of luxury that rich people lead, are more likely to fall prey to Christian promises of a better life in heaven with "God" after they die.

And, in this post, you do exactly what you are claiming not to do - suggesting that poor people have a less acute sense of discrimiation between what you regard as fact and fiction.  The very phrase 'are more likely to fall prey to Christian promises of a better life in heaven with "God" after they die' suggest that you treat them as second-class humans, especially since this that I have underlined is not what Christianity is primarily about.  I'd go as far as to suggest that it is often those of us with enough money to spare who are often the blindest, because our possessions blind us to the realities of life.

[Aruntraveller]

It is partly why I sometimes respond to such criticisms by suggesting that the critics are the ones who are poor and uneducated, because they seem to view life and 'reality' in a flatter, less multi-dimensional way that those with a faith.

Yes but according to Christianity, and therefore Christians, most of those that have a faith have got it wrong.

And what's the point of following a faith that is false?

Anyway I am pleased to see you acknowledge the weakness of your argument with the qualifier "seem to view life...".

So just an unsupported assertion really.

[Hope]

Yes but according to Christianity, and therefore Christians, most of those that have a faith have got it wrong.

And what's the point of following a faith that is false?

You tell me.  Perhaps they have been forced into following that faith, or have been taught untruths about other faiths.  (And, yes, Christianity is no less susceptible to that abuse than any other belief-system

Anyway I am pleased to see you acknowledge the weakness of your argument with the qualifier "seem to view life...".

So just an unsupported assertion really.

Well a number of other posters on this board have picked up the same issue and m,entioned in their posts - so not quite an 'unsupported' assertion.  I know that you don't believe that your belief system is any less multi-dimensional than mine, but since you are happy to dismiss the dimension of the supernatural, you necessarily have at least one dimension less to work with.

[Leonard James]

I can't speak for any other atheist, but my view is that poor people. who can see the lives of luxury that rich people lead, are more likely to fall prey to Christian promises of a better life in heaven with "God" after they die.

And, in this post, you do exactly what you are claiming not to do - suggesting that poor people have a less acute sense of discrimiation between what you regard as fact and fiction.

Rubbish! I said nothing about their ability to to discriminate, I simply pointed out that they are more likely to feel hard done by than the rich.

The very phrase 'are more likely to fall prey to Christian promises of a better life in heaven with "God" after they die' suggest that you treat them as second-class humans,

More rubbish! Nobody with an iota of intelligence would consider people who fall for con tricks as second-class humans. You are just inventing stuff to suit your argument.

especially since this that I have underlined is not what Christianity is primarily about.

Which doesn't alter the fact that they are very persuasive for the have-nots. 

I'd go as far as to suggest that it is often those of us with enough money to spare who are often the blindest, because our possessions blind us to the realities of life.

True, but the rich usually want more.

[Udayana]

Hi everyone,

Some people are beginning to pray at the workplace...in China too! They seem to be more devout than many traditional Christians in the West...!

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33405579

****************************************************************************

Saying prayers with colleagues would feel a bit uncomfortable, too intimate an activity in the workplace for many people.

Yet at Chinese real estate giant Tentimes Group, that is exactly what they do in the boardroom before making important decisions.

Three-quarters of the firm's eight-strong senior management team are Christians and founder and chairman Wang Ruoxiong, who himself became a Christian seven years ago, says that when the company has to make difficult decisions, it turns to the Bible for guidance.

In fact, he goes as far to say that it's not him but God running the firm.

"He controls everything. I am merely a housekeeper of Jesus, assisting him in taking care of the company," he says.

While for many, "love" at work may seem equally inappropriate, Mr Robb believes that a softer approach from those at the top, emphasising that the firm is part of a larger world with wider responsibilities, can be very powerful.

He recalls recently holding his granddaughter for the first time, reminding him of holding his own children when they were young, as an explanation for the feeling.

"That depth of feeling in your heart, your capacity to bring that to your work as a leader, your capacity to develop that capability in the organisation and to celebrate it, to reward it, to acknowledge it, to model it.

"Those sorts of things are part of creating a wider vessel and not a narrower vessel. And to the extent that that's spiritual, then I think that's a good thing."

******************************************************************************

A very novel approach...I think. I like it.  Better than the robotic mindset encouraged by western cultures...IMO

And atheists believe that religion is only for uneducated poor people!!!! 

Any views?

Cheers.

Sriram

As far as that description goes it's probably not too problematic. However, all sorts of questions about equality and rights are likely to arise.

Also, how ethical are the actions of this company in the end? How would they handle the issues associated with lands apprpriated from peoples of tribal cultures? Or impact of commerce and industry on them - eg the various land issues associated with mining in India?

[jeremyp]

And atheists believe that religion is only for uneducated poor people!!!! 

Nope.  I don't think religion is for anyone.

[splashscuba]

Believe what you like, I won't think any less of you. Well, I might a little.

[Aruntraveller]

I know that you don't believe that your belief system is any less multi-dimensional than mine, but since you are happy to dismiss the dimension of the supernatural, you necessarily have at least one dimension less to work with.

Well before we go any further with this I think you are going to have to define what you mean by 'supernatural'.

It seems to me (assertion there) that you will accept some things that are supernatural for example 'God' - but not others, maybe the Hindu pantheon as an example.

So as your approach to what you accept as supernatural, is by the nature of your belief limited and highly selective, your claim that I have one less dimension to work with is spurious to say the least.

[ProfessorDavey]

Hi everyone,

Some people are beginning to pray at the workplace...in China too! They seem to be more devout than many traditional Christians in the West...!

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33405579

****************************************************************************

Saying prayers with colleagues would feel a bit uncomfortable, too intimate an activity in the workplace for many people.

Yet at Chinese real estate giant Tentimes Group, that is exactly what they do in the boardroom before making important decisions.

Three-quarters of the firm's eight-strong senior management team are Christians and founder and chairman Wang Ruoxiong, who himself became a Christian seven years ago, says that when the company has to make difficult decisions, it turns to the Bible for guidance.

In fact, he goes as far to say that it's not him but God running the firm.

"He controls everything. I am merely a housekeeper of Jesus, assisting him in taking care of the company," he says.

While for many, "love" at work may seem equally inappropriate, Mr Robb believes that a softer approach from those at the top, emphasising that the firm is part of a larger world with wider responsibilities, can be very powerful.

He recalls recently holding his granddaughter for the first time, reminding him of holding his own children when they were young, as an explanation for the feeling.

"That depth of feeling in your heart, your capacity to bring that to your work as a leader, your capacity to develop that capability in the organisation and to celebrate it, to reward it, to acknowledge it, to model it.

"Those sorts of things are part of creating a wider vessel and not a narrower vessel. And to the extent that that's spiritual, then I think that's a good thing."

******************************************************************************

A very novel approach...I think. I like it.  Better than the robotic mindset encouraged by western cultures...IMO

And atheists believe that religion is only for uneducated poor people!!!! 

Any views?

Cheers.

Sriram

No idea of the situation within China, but in countries that fully support the equalities agenda there would be all sorts of problematic issues here, with the notion that religious worship forms part of your professional job in a situation where there is clearly no genuine occupational requirement.

If people want to pray outside of the formal work environment (by that I mean work activities rather than physical space) then fine, but when in a professional capacity requiring prayer is not on.

But perhaps more concerning is the notion from this guy that god controls the firm. Blimey - so who gets sued if something goes badly wrong. Someone cannot abrogate their responsibility in this manner, and particularly to something that may well not exist.

[Owlswing]

Yes, Sriram. My view is that if you really think that

"atheists believe that religion is only for uneducated poor people!!!"

you are more deluded than I took you to be.

Len, I know of plenty of people on a variety of forums who have used the fact that the early church was predominantly made up of 'uneducated poor people' to suggest that the modern church is made up of similar people.  Perhaps not poor in terms of money (though globally, there are millions of Christians who are on the edge of poverty), but more poor in mental acuity and understanding of what those critics regard as 'real life'.  Perhaps not uneducated, it that many in the West have high educational qualifications, but are deemed to have a lack of discrimination between 'real things' and so-called 'fables' and 'myths'.  It happens on this forum on a regular basis.

It is partly why I sometimes respond to such criticisms by suggesting that the critics are the ones who are poor and uneducated, because they seem to view life and 'reality' in a flatter, less multi-dimensional way that those with a faith.

. . . globally, there are millions of Christians who are on the edge of poverty . . .

I find this a rather strange statement, more so in the connection to the geogrphical location of the OP.

I would suggest that, in China, the number of non-Christians who are in the edge of poverty probably outnumbers the Christians in the same situation by a fairly high proportion.

Iam also not sure that I am happy with your mention of being "poor in mental acuity" as a qualification of Christians as this would seem to agree with the "uneducated" statement..

[Owlswing]

Hi everyone,

Some people are beginning to pray at the workplace...in China too! They seem to be more devout than many traditional Christians in the West...!

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33405579

****************************************************************************

Saying prayers with colleagues would feel a bit uncomfortable, too intimate an activity in the workplace for many people.

Yet at Chinese real estate giant Tentimes Group, that is exactly what they do in the boardroom before making important decisions.

Three-quarters of the firm's eight-strong senior management team are Christians and founder and chairman Wang Ruoxiong, who himself became a Christian seven years ago, says that when the company has to make difficult decisions, it turns to the Bible for guidance.

In fact, he goes as far to say that it's not him but God running the firm.

"He controls everything. I am merely a housekeeper of Jesus, assisting him in taking care of the company," he says.

While for many, "love" at work may seem equally inappropriate, Mr Robb believes that a softer approach from those at the top, emphasising that the firm is part of a larger world with wider responsibilities, can be very powerful.

He recalls recently holding his granddaughter for the first time, reminding him of holding his own children when they were young, as an explanation for the feeling.

"That depth of feeling in your heart, your capacity to bring that to your work as a leader, your capacity to develop that capability in the organisation and to celebrate it, to reward it, to acknowledge it, to model it.

"Those sorts of things are part of creating a wider vessel and not a narrower vessel. And to the extent that that's spiritual, then I think that's a good thing."

******************************************************************************

A very novel approach...I think. I like it.  Better than the robotic mindset encouraged by western cultures...IMO

And atheists believe that religion is only for uneducated poor people!!!! 

Any views?

Cheers.

Sriram

. . . so who gets sued if something goes badly wrong.

I seem to remember a Billy Connolly film on this subject a while ago.

[ProfessorDavey]

Len, I know of plenty of people on a variety of forums who have used the fact that the early church was predominantly made up of 'uneducated poor people' to suggest that the modern church is made up of similar people.  Perhaps not poor in terms of money (though globally, there are millions of Christians who are on the edge of poverty), but more poor in mental acuity and understanding of what those critics regard as 'real life'.  Perhaps not uneducated, it that many in the West have high educational qualifications, but are deemed to have a lack of discrimination between 'real things' and so-called 'fables' and 'myths'.  It happens on this forum on a regular basis.

It is partly why I sometimes respond to such criticisms by suggesting that the critics are the ones who are poor and uneducated, because they seem to view life and 'reality' in a flatter, less multi-dimensional way that those with a faith.

But that is surely just as bad if not worse than your criticism of others claiming that christians are somehow uneducated.

And you seem to attribute this 'special' ability to being christian - so are people with other faiths just as 'multidimensional' or is it just those that agree with you. Sounds pretty arrogant to me - unless you agree with me you aren't somehow complete as a person, you are flat and two dimensional. That attitude has a longstanding and horrific legacy, basically the notion that people who don't agree with you aren't 'fully formed' in a way of speaking. Sounds a bit like the ex Archbishop of Westminster who claimed that atheists weren't fully human.

These are so often the first steps to a standard justification of discrimination, persecution and worse:

Step 1 - these people aren't like us
Step 2 - these people aren't really fully formed as people in the way we are
Step 3 - these people (with characteristics 1 and 2) are a danger to people like us and need to be dealt with

From personal experience the moment when I recognised that I did not believe in god (I hadn't really ever believed but didn't really fully come to recognise that fact until about 20) the world became suddenly more vivid, more real. The best way of explaining it was that previously I had been looking at a view from within a building and through a window (perhaps one that needed a little cleaning). My experience of that view wasn't direct and the view was distorted, I couldn't experience the sounds and smells of that place. Suddenly I was looking at the world directly, there was nothing in the way to obscure or limit the sensory experience.

And yes it was both a little startling and a little scary in that I recognised that I was responsible for what I did as a moral agent. I had to develop my own approach to life, my own ethical views. I couldn't simply borrow someone else's.

Now I'm sure your experience is different and I'm not going to claim I know about your experiences (how could I, they are yours), but fro my experience my life became much more multifaceted, more 3-dimensional, more real and actually more adult, when I came to recognise that I didn't believe in god.

[Hope]

It is partly why I sometimes respond to such criticisms by suggesting that the critics are the ones who are poor and uneducated, because they seem to view life and 'reality' in a flatter, less multi-dimensional way that those with a faith.

But that is surely just as bad if not worse than your criticism of others claiming that christians are somehow uneducated.

And you seem to attribute this 'special' ability to being christian ...

I think that you will find that you are the one ascribing this 'special' ability to being Christian.  If you look at the last paragraph of the post you quoted (see underlined above) you will see that I specifically stated 'those with a faith'.  I intentionally did not say Christian, even though the previous paragraph had focussed on Christianity because it was in response to a comment about Christianity - one that I believe to be mistaken (or perhaps intentionally wrong)

In fact, I often refer to 'people with a faith' or 'religious' people, as opposed to 'Christians' because many of the posts use that terminology.

Sounds a bit like the ex Archbishop of Westminster who claimed that atheists weren't fully human.

I don't agree with said Archbishop - probably don't agree with him on a host of subjects - but since many of the atheists have no problem accusing religioius people of being 'lacking mentally' and other perjorative phrases, I'm not sure that you have a great deal of ground, let alone solid ground to base such a comment.

These are so often the first steps to a standard justification of discrimination, persecution and worse:

Step 1 - these people aren't like us
Step 2 - these people aren't really fully formed as people in the way we are
Step 3 - these people (with characteristics 1 and 2) are a danger to people like us and need to be dealt with

You and several others here would appear to be following these steps quite well, PD.

From personal experience the moment when I recognised that I did not believe in god (I hadn't really ever believed but didn't really fully come to recognise that fact until about 20) the world became suddenly more vivid, more real. The best way of explaining it was that previously I had been looking at a view from within a building and through a window (perhaps one that needed a little cleaning). My experience of that view wasn't direct and the view was distorted, I couldn't experience the sounds and smells of that place. Suddenly I was looking at the world directly, there was nothing in the way to obscure or limit the sensory experience.

And yes it was both a little startling and a little scary in that I recognised that I was responsible for what I did as a moral agent. I had to develop my own approach to life, my own ethical views. I couldn't simply borrow someone else's.

I would say that my experience was pretty well the opposite.  The more and more I studied world-views that did away with God, the more blurred and dull everything became.  Basically, life began to shrink and to become monotonal. 

Now I'm sure your experience is different and I'm not going to claim I know about your experiences (how could I, they are yours), but fro my experience my life became much more multifaceted, more 3-dimensional, more real and actually more adult, when I came to recognise that I didn't believe in god.

Another good example of a perjorative comment, PD - which you don't seem to have any problem with.

[ProfessorDavey]

It is partly why I sometimes respond to such criticisms by suggesting that the critics are the ones who are poor and uneducated, because they seem to view life and 'reality' in a flatter, less multi-dimensional way that those with a faith.

But that is surely just as bad if not worse than your criticism of others claiming that christians are somehow uneducated.

And you seem to attribute this 'special' ability to being christian ...

I think that you will find that you are the one ascribing this 'special' ability to being Christian.  If you look at the last paragraph of the post you quoted (see underlined above) you will see that I specifically stated 'those with a faith'.  I intentionally did not say Christian, even though the previous paragraph had focussed on Christianity because it was in response to a comment about Christianity - one that I believe to be mistaken (or perhaps intentionally wrong)

In fact, I often refer to 'people with a faith' or 'religious' people, as opposed to 'Christians' because many of the posts use that terminology.

Fine - happy to be corrected, although you did refer to christians specifically in the paragraph leading up to that comment, so not unreasonable to ask the question as to whether you considered this to be simply about christians.

Sounds a bit like the ex Archbishop of Westminster who claimed that atheists weren't fully human.

I don't agree with said Archbishop - probably don't agree with him on a host of subjects - but since many of the atheists have no problem accusing religioius people of being 'lacking mentally' and other perjorative phrases, I'm not sure that you have a great deal of ground, let alone solid ground to base such a comment.

Please don't generalise - I am not 'many atheists, I am one specific person who happens to be an atheist. One of the key elements to my world view is to treat people as individuals and not to lump people together and generalise. So I might make a specific point about a specific person, but I don't think I am the kind of person who makes pejorative and negative points about a group of people in a generalising manner.

These are so often the first steps to a standard justification of discrimination, persecution and worse:

Step 1 - these people aren't like us
Step 2 - these people aren't really fully formed as people in the way we are
Step 3 - these people (with characteristics 1 and 2) are a danger to people like us and need to be dealt with

You and several others here would appear to be following these steps quite well, PD.

I can't speak for the 'several others' but where have I engaged in that type of dialogue. Don't forget please that I am in a mixed faith marriage, my wife being an active catholic. I don't think it is really credible to think that I'd make crude generalising comments about christians (or religious people) as it would necessarily imply I though that about my wife. I don't and as mentioned above I tend to make judgements about individuals based on individual characteristics, not generalised stereotyping.

From personal experience the moment when I recognised that I did not believe in god (I hadn't really ever believed but didn't really fully come to recognise that fact until about 20) the world became suddenly more vivid, more real. The best way of explaining it was that previously I had been looking at a view from within a building and through a window (perhaps one that needed a little cleaning). My experience of that view wasn't direct and the view was distorted, I couldn't experience the sounds and smells of that place. Suddenly I was looking at the world directly, there was nothing in the way to obscure or limit the sensory experience.

And yes it was both a little startling and a little scary in that I recognised that I was responsible for what I did as a moral agent. I had to develop my own approach to life, my own ethical views. I couldn't simply borrow someone else's.

I would say that my experience was pretty well the opposite.  The more and more I studied world-views that did away with God, the more blurred and dull everything became.  Basically, life began to shrink and to become monotonal.

So your experience is different to mine - I pretty well said as much in my initial comment. We are different people and have differing world views and differing experiences. I am happy to accept (indeed I did before your reply) your experience as being different. All I was doing is explaining my experience. Please accept it as such, in the same manner as I am (and have) for yours.

Now I'm sure your experience is different and I'm not going to claim I know about your experiences (how could I, they are yours), but fro my experience my life became much more multifaceted, more 3-dimensional, more real and actually more adult, when I came to recognise that I didn't believe in god.

Another good example of a perjorative comment, PD - which you don't seem to have any problem with.

Nope - I cannot let you get away with that.

I never made any claim about your experience, all I did was explain my experience. Where did I ever claim that your life was flat or monotone because of your faith - how can I - I am not you.

On the other hand you made a pejorative claim about other people's experience (quite how you know about someone else's experience is beyond me). And not only that, but you did it in a crude and generalising manner - lumping together all people who don't have a faith. To reiterate your comment was:

'they seem to view life and 'reality' in a flatter, less multi-dimensional way that those with a faith.'

That is entirely different to me describing my own experience as such:

'Now I'm sure your experience is different and I'm not going to claim I know about your experiences (how could I, they are yours), but fro my experience my life became much more multifaceted, more 3-dimensional, more real and actually more adult, when I came to recognise that I didn't believe in god.'

Clearly (note the beginning of the sentence) I wasn't generalising (quite the reverse). And yes I did feel more adult when I came to recognise I didn't believe in god. Does that statement somehow imply that you are less adult (no because I clearly said I expect your experience is different). Does it imply religious people are childish - nope all I was doing was explaining my individual experience.

[Harrowby Hall]

Praying at work.


Driving instructors do it all the time!

[Hope]

Fine - happy to be corrected, although you did refer to christians specifically in the paragraph leading up to that comment, so not unreasonable to ask the question as to whether you considered this to be simply about christians.

I appreciate this and feel that sometimes posters on both sides of the debate confuse 'Christian' - a particular faith position - and 'religion'/'religious'.  I suspect I've fallen into the trap, occasionally.

Please don't generalise - I am not 'many atheists, I am one specific person who happens to be an atheist. One of the key elements to my world view is to treat people as individuals and not to lump people together and generalise. So I might make a specific point about a specific person, but I don't think I am the kind of person who makes pejorative and negative points about a group of people in a generalising manner.

Whilst I'm in agreement with your plea against generalisation, it is often necessary to do so to combat an opposing generalisation.  For instance, in a later paragraph from your original pst, you stated that "life became much more multifaceted, more 3-dimensional, more real and actually more adult ..." (my emphasis).  That bolded statement is a generalisation, albeit hiding behind your personal opinion, as it implies that those with a faith are less adult.  As such, you are no less guilty of adopting a generalist approach.

Don't forget please that I am in a mixed faith marriage, my wife being an active catholic. I don't think it is really credible to think that I'd make crude generalising comments about christians (or religious people) as it would necessarily imply I though that about my wife. I don't and as mentioned above I tend to make judgements about individuals based on individual characteristics, not generalised stereotyping.

Note again your previous reference to "life becoming ... more adult'".

So your experience is different to mine - I pretty well said as much in my initial comment. We are different people and have differing world views and differing experiences. I am happy to accept (indeed I did before your reply) your experience as being different. All I was doing is explaining my experience. Please accept it as such, in the same manner as I am (and have) for yours.

PD, I'm sorry that I didn't acknowledge your comment.  The truth is that I either read it and didn't take it in or my skim reading skills are becoming slightly rusty.  I will happily state that you, compared to several others, are far more objective in your posts - and that comparison isn't only with folk on your side of the debate - but as I have pointed out even you manage to generalise occasionally without realising it.

On the other hand you made a pejorative claim about other people's experience (quite how you know about someone else's experience is beyond me). And not only that, but you did it in a crude and generalising manner - lumping together all people who don't have a faith. To reiterate your comment was:

'they seem to view life and 'reality' in a flatter, less multi-dimensional way that those with a faith.'

You say "quite how you know about someone else's experience is beyond me".  Well, some here wear their hearts so brashly on their sleeves that it only needs a reasonable grasp of English to glean an overall understanding of their experiences.

[ProfessorDavey]

Whilst I'm in agreement with your plea against generalisation, it is often necessary to do so to combat an opposing generalisation.  For instance, in a later paragraph from your original pst, you stated that "life became much more multifaceted, more 3-dimensional, more real and actually more adult ..." (my emphasis).  That bolded statement is a generalisation, albeit hiding behind your personal opinion, as it implies that those with a faith are less adult.  As such, you are no less guilty of adopting a generalist approach.

I'm sorry if it came across in that way but it was not meant to be and I am struggling to see how it could be considered as anything other than my own personal experience. Please see it in the context of the entire sentence:

'Now I'm sure your experience is different and I'm not going to claim I know about your experiences (how could I, they are yours), but fro my experience my life became much more multifaceted, more 3-dimensional, more real and actually more adult, when I came to recognise that I didn't believe in god.'

I am clearly only talking about my own experience and make that absolutely crystal clear by stating that I'd expect your experience to be different to mine, and also that I can't really claim to know about anyone else's (including your) experiences, only mine. It is a little beyond me how that can be seen as generalising when I'd bent over backwards to make it clear that I was only talking about my own personal experience.

[OH MY WORLD!]

That's good Davey. So you will agree that a person who decides God does not exist, is not entering a more adult life?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sriram,

Aye! Atheists are a right thick lot, anyway on a less serious subject, ritual in religion.

The Chinese are into ritual in a big way, ritual is a way of getting your head right.

A bit of prayer first thing in the morning can only be a good thing, a way to collect your thoughts before you start your day.

Karen Armstrong ( am I becoming boring ) in her book The Great Transformation talks at length about ritual, she mentions Confucius who was into ritual big time, Confucius was fighting against a loss of ritual, rich getting richer, poor becoming poorer ( familiar ).

The rich had lost their way, ritual reminded them of their duty to the poor, they had forgotten this.

So I can see how the Chinese Christians make a big deal about prayer, a useful ritual to start your day or meeting, a reminder.

Hey!! That could be an interesting thread, what is your daily ritual, mines is three cups of strong coffee and cigarettes to start the day

Gonnagle.

[~TW~]

Yes, Sriram. My view is that if you really think that

"atheists believe that religion is only for uneducated poor people!!!"

you are more deluded than I took you to be.

Well...many of you (may be not all atheists) have said so on here several times. Many atheists have even tried to 'prove' it with statistics many times here.....I remember.  Why are you so shocked by that?!

I can't speak for any other atheist, but my view is that poor people. who can see the lives of luxury that rich people lead, are more likely to fall prey to Christian promises of a better life in heaven with "God" after they die.

  Trust me LJ pound for pound I know I have more cash then you I am certainly not poor and I did not Ask Christ into my life for an  easy ride in heaven LJ you really are Nuts  what a soppy post.

  ~TW~