Extended Sunday opening hours

[BeRational]

I think it will create employment.

Are you selfish to not want these people to have the extra work and money?

No, people who oppose the idea are not selfish because the experience many of us have had is that activity changes location, rather than volume, and those who were earning a wage prior to the activity changing location either end up on lower wages working for the supermarkets, or on out-of-work benefits.  Furthermore, the local authorities lose out on business rate income as small independent shops are forced to close, producers' incomes drop, and landlords have a reduced income and therefore may pay less tax; all-in-all, a lose-lose scenario, unless you're a big supermarket chain.

Do you think Scotland has it all wrong then?

[Hope]

Do you think Scotland has it all wrong then?

For all the noise about Scotland, I'm not sure that they're a realistic comparison.

wikipedia states that:

Scotland has never had any general legislation regarding Sunday trading. However, the Sunday Working (Scotland) Act 2003 prohibits shops from compelling their workers to work on Sunday.

I'm not sure that the legislation covering England and Wales matches the protections given to workers that the 2003 law mentioned above has.  Furthermore, because there was never the gradation that we have in England and Wales, they have never had the same issues that face those of us south of the border.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Berational,

No Scotland has not got it all wrong, the western world has got it all wrong.

This is supposed to be the 21st century but what is the ethos, I must work more hours, woman who say, hell I will have a child and then I will go back to work, bringing up a child is not the hardest job you can have, oh sorry, wait, my bad, the woman our man has to go and work, bringing up a child is so expensive, fuck me, that is the dirtiest circle of life I have ever heard.

Here in the west we still have people working nightshift, the only people who should work nights is the emergency services, working nights is bad for your health, it is a proven fact, hell it is evolutionary.

Why don't we go the full hog, become Las Vegas, open 24/7.

Another wee cracker, we work all the hours God sends and then for just two weeks we go on holiday, as if this will make up for killing yourself the rest of the year.

This Sunday opening time is another Tory body swerve, a third of the children of this world will still live in poverty and people will still risk their crossing the sea to come to this so called land of milk and honey, hang yer head in shame Cameron.

Gonnagle.

This is a official Gonnagle rant, no keyboards were harmed in its production.

[BeRational]

Gonnagle,

It was a rant really.

I would still value being able to treat Sunday as nothing special and open 24 hours.

I would see that as progress.

It's just my opinion, but I cannot see what is wrong with letting businesses open if they want to, and have the staff to do so.

More choice.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Berational,

Yep, just a rant but one from the heart, for me Sunday opening is just part of a bigger malaise, work harder, work more hours for what!!

Me I prefer, work smarter, work fairly, work less hours, work happily.

Gonnagle.

[BeRational]

Dear Berational,

Yep, just a rant but one from the heart, for me Sunday opening is just part of a bigger malaise, work harder, work more hours for what!!

Me I prefer, work smarter, work fairly, work less hours, work happily.

Gonnagle.

I do that most of the time, but having Sunday open like the other days would just make it easier for me.

I really cannot see the problem.

[Hope]

More choice.

BR, a couple of years ago, a local disused pub was bought up by Tesco and turned into a Tesco Extra, which is allowed to stay open all day on a Sunday.  Within a year, the Spar franchise that was 50 yards along the road and had been serving the local population since the 1990s closed as it couldn't compete.  Of their 12 employees, all come from the local area and became unemployed.  Ironically, none of the employees of the Tesco at the time came from the area.   Within a month, the prices at the Tesco had risen by about 15%.  The newsagent that sits immediately alongside the Tesco has diversified so as to pick up on some of the Tesco's custom - and now stocks tinned food, milk and other stuff like that, as well as a few newspapers and other newsagenty things.

Prices in that area soon became proportionately higher than they were before Tesco arrived and what is available to the public has dropped.  More choice?  In no way.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Berational,

Well maybe not you or me, I have finished work for today and am now procrastinating on this forum.

But others work long hours, no time in the day to chill, lay back, smell the roses, their days off are spent playing catch up.

One day when the world shuts down, we should all have implants, if you even mention work, mild electric shock.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Gonnagle,

It was a rant really.

I would still value being able to treat Sunday as nothing special and open 24 hours.

I would see that as progress.

It's just my opinion, but I cannot see what is wrong with letting businesses open if they want to, and have the staff to do so.

More choice.

It would mean commerce controlled all our lives in every department.
Your typos might not mind because you guys don't think you are anything but an illusion but I exist and I fucking mind.

[jeremyp]

The 'Sunday is special' brigade presumably insist that their version of 'special' is sacrosanct. Perhaps it is a cultural thing that we in Scotland are simply less bothered about.

Gordon, as I've stated several times, this thread is about economics and not whether or not Sunday is special.

And Gordon seems to be saying that economic Armageddon did not happen in Scotland.

Did the fact that large stores were allowed to open far longer on a Sunday in Scotland than in England have any impact on the smaller, often independent traders that make up many local high streets in Scotland?

My local supermarket has a much larger range of products at lower prices than any of the nearby independent traders.  Why is it so important to protect them?

[Shaker]

It would mean commerce controlled all our lives in every department.

That would be the result of shops opening for the same amount of hours on a Sunday as on a Saturday?

Not hysterically over the top at all, then.

[Aruntraveller]

My local supermarket has a much larger range of products at lower prices than any of the nearby independent traders.

I explained this further up the thread. The buying power of Tesco's, SBS, etc means that small traders cannot in some cases get wholesale prices cheaper than the price on the shop floor at Tesco's. If you want retail dominated by big companies you will have no problem with this - but as it will,and already is, leading to less competition, not more, than I think it is a bad thing. And some measure of protection is needed for small businesses.

Or alternatively you force suppliers to sell their goods at an equal price across the board ensuring a fairer playing field.

[Aruntraveller]

My objection is more social than religious.

Having everything open all the time makes it harder for families to have a day out together.

In some ways Sunday's are horrible now, and often more busy than Saturday's.

Sunday's used to be a great day for families to relax together without all the shopping.

You went for a walk or enjoyed the garden.

Now either half the family is working or families are just spending more time queuing in tescos for their weekly shop.

Sunday's are just so busy now.

I have much the same feelings Rose. There used to be a different quality to Sundays (irrespective of the religious element) that I quite appreciated - now long gone so I don't think it will ever return. However I do also feel for those that work shifts and irregular hours who find it difficult to get to the shops at regular times - but I still think you must be very hard-pressed if Sunday is the only time you can make it.

[Shaker]

Having everything open all the time makes it harder for families to have a day out together.

How does it? Are shops magnetic? Do they have Death Star-esque tractor beams sucking in unwilling passersby?

In some ways Sunday's are horrible now, and often more busy than Saturday's.

The Sundays I remember as a kid were horrible, oftentimes (especially when it was raining) so boring that it was almost nausea-inducing.

Presumably Sundays are busier than Saturdays because people have less time in which to shop, and have to pile in and get it done with because for some stupid reason the shop shuts at four o'clock.

Sunday's used to be a great day for families to relax together without all the shopping.

They still are, if you want them to be. Shopping is legal, not compulsory, and to suggest otherwise is as mindless as those by now old men (it's invariably men - Synonym dusted this one off, gave it a squirt of WD40 and a wipe and pressed it into service not long back) who said that homosexuality being legal was the prelude to its being compulsory.

You went for a walk or enjoyed the garden.

It was so sad when they made those things illegal back in 1994.

Oh no, wait, they didn't, and you're spouting bullshit as usual.

Now either half the family is working or families are just spending more time queuing in tescos for their weekly shop.

Sunday's are just so busy now.

Well, you could always reduce the busy-ness by at least one and look after your geraniums.

And I've no time for this endless fetishisation of bloody families either, as though everybody has one (some people don't) or wants to spend any more time with them than they actually have to (some people don't). Let people make their own choices about how they spend their time, which may include things other than playing Cluedo and trimming the privet.

[BeRational]

My objection is more social than religious.

Having everything open all the time makes it harder for families to have a day out together.

In some ways Sunday's are horrible now, and often more busy than Saturday's.

Sunday's used to be a great day for families to relax together without all the shopping.

You went for a walk or enjoyed the garden.

Now either half the family is working or families are just spending more time queuing in tescos for their weekly shop.

Sunday's are just so busy now.

Surely, it's all about choice.

I like the option of having Sunday available to shop or whatever, and you prefer to spend it in the garden.

We can do both.

[Shaker]

Surely, it's all about choice.

I like the option of having Sunday available to shop or whatever, and you prefer to spend it in the garden.

We can do both.

Seems simple enough to me, but others appear to be struggling with it for some reason.

[floo]

Just because the shops are open all day on a Sunday doesn't mean it is mandatory to go shopping if you prefer not to!

[Shaker]

Just because the shops are open all day on a Sunday doesn't mean it is mandatory to go shopping if you prefer not to!

Some of us know that. Some people, for their own reasons, pretend not to.

[Aruntraveller]

Just because the shops are open all day on a Sunday doesn't mean it is mandatory to go shopping if you prefer not to!

Some of us know that. Some people, for their own reasons, pretend not to.

Not pretending not to, at all. Just don't like the fact that Sunday is now indistinguishable from every other day. That indistinguishability imo is not to benefit us - but to benefit businesses like the aforementioned.

Why, for your own reasons you can't understand that I don't know. 

[BeRational]

Just because the shops are open all day on a Sunday doesn't mean it is mandatory to go shopping if you prefer not to!

Some of us know that. Some people, for their own reasons, pretend not to.

Not pretending not to, at all. Just don't like the fact that Sunday is now indistinguishable from every other day. That indistinguishability imo is not to benefit us - but to benefit businesses like the aforementioned.

Why, for your own reasons you can't understand that I don't know. 

I like the fact it is like any other day.
I used to hate Sundays when I was young as it was a dead day.

Having Sunday as just another day simply increases choice.

I use it as I want, and you as you want.

Otherwise you are insisting that I use Sundays as you do, and that limits my choice.

[Shaker]

Just because the shops are open all day on a Sunday doesn't mean it is mandatory to go shopping if you prefer not to!

Some of us know that. Some people, for their own reasons, pretend not to.

Not pretending not to, at all. Just don't like the fact that Sunday is now indistinguishable from every other day. That indistinguishability imo is not to benefit us - but to benefit businesses like the aforementioned.

Why, for your own reasons you can't understand that I don't know. 

I like the fact it is like any other day.
I used to hate Sundays when I was young as it was a dead day.

Having Sunday as just another day simply increases choice.

I use it as I want, and you as you want.

Otherwise you are insisting that I use Sundays as you do, and that limits my choice.

... and there's the nub of it.

[Aruntraveller]

I have already acknowledged that it is unlikely to change back to the previous state of affairs. I am just expressing my dislike for the change in the nature of the day. I liked the fact that Sunday was different. I dislike the fact that it is now pretty much the same as any other day.

I want Christmas Day to be exactly the same as  every other day. Force staff in shops to work to provide me with the service I demand in the name of conformity and commerce.

[Shaker]

I have already acknowledged that it is unlikely to change back to the previous state of affairs. I am just expressing my dislike for the change in the nature of the day. I liked the fact that Sunday was different.

Your Sundays must have been different to mine, then. As I remember them, they were absolutely bleeding awful.

I want Christmas Day to be exactly the same as  every other day. Force staff in shops to work to provide me with the service I demand in the name of conformity and commerce.

I don't want anybody forced to work, but in two countries with a combined population of about 57,000,000 people (England & Wales) I can't see it being too hard to find any number of people happy to work not only on Sundays but on Easter Sunday and Christmas Day. Unlikely I'd be nipping to Waitrose on Christmas afternoon, but that's fine by me. I say let them.

Conformity, by the way, is when everyone does the same thing, which is apparently what Rose wants to see; what BR and I want to see is the opposite of that.

[Aruntraveller]

Ok. Enjoy your headlong rush into meaningless consumerism. I sincerely hope it brings about the "choice" (scare quotes for you there) that you so cherish.

[BeRational]

Ok. Enjoy your headlong rush into meaningless consumerism. I sincerely hope it brings about the "choice" (scare quotes for you there) that you so cherish.

Not sure why you see it as so dangerous.

It's just one more day!

And you can continue to treat it just the same as you do now. I am not looking to limit your choice, so why would you mine?