Extended Sunday opening hours

[Walt Zingmatilder]

NO, I do not require them to work.

I want them to have the option to choose for themselves.

Why are you against freedom and choice?

Some people are. They're just like that. We see it time and time and time again - in abortion, in assisted suicide, in same-sex marriage; in Sunday trading. Free choice - letting people do whatever they want to do as long as they don't frighten the horses - is the enemy.

Of course it should go without saying that the enemies of free choice are typically people in thrall to absolutist, dogmatic, my-way-or-the-highway religious belief systems. Look for opposition to abortion, assisted suicide, same-sex marriage and Sunday trading and more often than not - by a very long way - you'll find religionists and especially monotheists. It's their thing; only one god means only one way - their way. That's why human history in this specific context has been a history of religionists having pluralism thrust upon them with extreme reluctance, with pushback and opposition and whiny crybaby won't-somebody-think-of-the-children bleating consistently throughout.

Hang on.....where's me violin AND FRESHLY CUT ONIONS?

[Shaker]

Have you been drinking tonight or something?

[jeremyp]

My local supermarket has a much larger range of products at lower prices than any of the nearby independent traders.

I explained this further up the thread. The buying power of Tesco's, SBS, etc means that small traders cannot in some cases get wholesale prices cheaper than the price on the shop floor at Tesco's.

I know why it is the case, I was merely questioning the apparent received wisdom that the loss of these small independent shops is important.

If you want retail dominated by big companies

You have missed that boat.  It's already done and dusted.

but as it will,and already is, leading to less competition

You know the supermarket business is absolutely cut throat don't you? 

not more, than I think it is a bad thing. And some measure of protection is needed for small businesses.

Why?  What does a small food shop offer me as a consumer that I cannot get from the supermarket?

NB there are several small food shops near my house but they are all branded with national supermarket brands.

[Gordon]

Coming from somewhere where ST isn't an issue I'm perplexed that some see this is the end of civilisation as they know it: and yet it is routine in Scotland and it simply isn't an issue outwith places like Lewis, as Jim noted. Having spend the last two Sundays in England I've had to remember the 4pm enforced limitation on large supermarkets, which just seems archaic and restrictive compared to arrangements at home.

As regards the effects on small shopkeepers in E & W I'm struggling to understand the reality of the competition from getting rid of ST restrictions south of the border - if someone who intended to do a 'serious' shopping at a hypermarket missed the Sunday 4pm-ish deadline I don't think they'd start prowling the small traders for all they need: I reckon they might buy the odd item from a corner shop if they really needed it urgently and just return to the large supermarket the following day.     

[jeremyp]

Because if we don't they will be forced out of business.

But they offer less choice at higher prices than a supermarket.  Why must the public be forced to subsidise high priced poor quality services?

Not everyone can drive a car to these big out of town places

So if there is still a demand for these local shops, they won't go out of business.

[jeremyp]

Ok. Enjoy your headlong rush into meaningless consumerism. I sincerely hope it brings about the "choice" (scare quotes for you there) that you so cherish.

Yes, that's exactly what happened in Scotland.  Oh no wait, it didn't.

[jeremyp]

Sunday was a nicer day for the shops being closed.

No it wasn't.

[Shaker]

How strict are the anti-ST faction?

Is it just shops - I mean, pretty obvious shops like Tesco and Morrisons - that they don't want to see operating after 16:00 of a Sunday, or does it extend to, let us say, the power-generating people (I know; I've been round a power station, hard hat and all; I was there, man, I was there) who work in power stations to keep the lights and the tellies and the Sky+HD boxes going no matter what day or what time of day it is, Sundays, Easter Sundays, Christmas Days and all. I'd love to know how consistent they are in their position.

Just asking, like. I really am genuinely interested.

[jeremyp]

Dearie Me,

Will Sunday opening affect the small trader, yes of course, who relies on the small trader, non drivers, the aged, the ill.

Bad idea.

Gonnagle.

Have you heard of the Internet?  If you can't walk far, you can use it to have goods delivered to your door now.  It's quite clever really.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dearie Me,

Will Sunday opening affect the small trader, yes of course, who relies on the small trader, non drivers, the aged, the ill.

Bad idea.

Gonnagle.

Have you heard of the Internet?  If you can't walk far, you can use it to have goods delivered to your door now.  It's quite clever really.

Yes that's Tesco lorries thundering through our towns and villages disturbing the nation's well earned peace.

I bet your car has a colonel bogey Horn.

[jeremyp]

How strict are the anti-ST faction?

Is it just shops - I mean, pretty obvious shops like Tesco and Morrisons - that they don't want to see operating after 16:00 of a Sunday, or does it extend to, let us say, the power-generating people (I know; I've been round a power station, hard hat and all; I was there, man, I was there) who work in power stations to keep the lights and the tellies and the Sky+HD boxes going no matter what day or what time of day it is, Sundays, Easter Sundays, Christmas Days and all. I'd love to know how consistent they are in their position.

Just asking, like. I really am genuinely interested.

Firefighters and police officers have families too.  We are such fascists to make them work on Sundays apparently.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was compulsory for fire fighters to do the odd Sunday shift.  How evil of the Fire Service to make them do that.

[jeremyp]

Yes that's Tesco lorries thundering through our towns and villages disturbing the nation's well earned peace.

You would deny the sick and elderly access to food and drink just because you don't like the sound of the odd lorry. 

[Shaker]

Firefighters and police officers have families too. 

I see immediately a fatal flaw in your argument, which is that fires should only occur and crimes be committed between 08:00 and 18:00 (at the latest) Monday to Saturday. Anything else is just wrongness.

[Shaker]

Dearie Me,

Will Sunday opening affect the small trader, yes of course, who relies on the small trader, non drivers, the aged, the ill.

Bad idea.

Gonnagle.

Have you heard of the Internet?  If you can't walk far, you can use it to have goods delivered to your door now.  It's quite clever really.

Yes that's Tesco lorries thundering through our towns and villages disturbing the nation's well earned peace.

I bet your car has a colonel bogey Horn.

Do Tesco lorries thunder through our town and villages disturbing the nation's well-earned peace more than any other kind of lorry, Vlad?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes that's Tesco lorries thundering through our towns and villages disturbing the nation's well earned peace.

You would deny the sick and elderly access to food and drink just because you don't like the sound of the odd lorry.

No they could have boys on bicycles delivering it from Local shops.

[Shaker]

Yes that's Tesco lorries thundering through our towns and villages disturbing the nation's well earned peace.

You would deny the sick and elderly access to food and drink just because you don't like the sound of the odd lorry.

No they could have boys on bicycles delivering it from Local shops.

I always wondered what it would be like to live in one of my all-time favourite films, Went the Day Well? Now I know - Vlad lives there.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes that's Tesco lorries thundering through our towns and villages disturbing the nation's well earned peace.

You would deny the sick and elderly access to food and drink just because you don't like the sound of the odd lorry.

No they could have boys on bicycles delivering it from Local shops.

I always wondered what it would be like to live in one of my all-time favourite films, Went the Day Well? Now I know - Vlad lives there.

Alas nobody is allowed to because of progress only those with Long drives.

[Sebastian Toe]

Because if we don't they will be forced out of business.

But they offer less choice at higher prices than a supermarket.  Why must the public be forced to subsidise high priced poor quality services?

Not everyone can drive a car to these big out of town places

So if there is still a demand for these local shops, they won't go out of business.

Just thought I would point out that in my town (in Lanarkshire) there are three supermarkets open on Sunday 9am-8pm and to my knowledge, none, that's none, of the local 'corner shops' have closed in the eight years I have lived here.
In fact a new one opened up last year and it is doing just fine as far as I can determine.
I use it quite often as it is nearer to my house than the big chains and it has a really big chiller cabinet for beer!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Shaker,

Post 127, sorry but I have a smile of disbelief on my face right now, see! Problem is we need killjoys, we need folk to say, hang on a minute have you thought this through.

This is a atheist problem, you think you know, problem is we don't know.

My evidence, global warming, climate change, we are raping this planet with no thought for the future.

Not a case of just scaring the horses, it is a case of we think we are smart when in fact we are so dumb.

Taken this planet billions of years of practice to get it right and then we come along and think we can do better.

Dear Jeremyp,

Internet, aye the wee granny with arthritic fingers loves the internet, oh sorry her granddaughter can do it for her, oh sorry again she can't, far to busy working nightshift at Tescos.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Gonnagle,

My last post of the evening ( bye the way you do know you are devilishly good looking ) Tescos the fourth emergency service.

Gonnagle.

[Owlswing]

How strict are the anti-ST faction?

Is it just shops - I mean, pretty obvious shops like Tesco and Morrisons - that they don't want to see operating after 16:00 of a Sunday, or does it extend to, let us say, the power-generating people (I know; I've been round a power station, hard hat and all; I was there, man, I was there) who work in power stations to keep the lights and the tellies and the Sky+HD boxes going no matter what day or what time of day it is, Sundays, Easter Sundays, Christmas Days and all. I'd love to know how consistent they are in their position.

Just asking, like. I really am genuinely interested.

Firefighters and police officers have families too.  We are such fascists to make them work on Sundays apparently.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was compulsory for fire fighters to do the odd Sunday shift.  How evil of the Fire Service to make them do that.

I seem to remember that the need for people like coppers, firefighters, nurses etc who sometimes needed to do a shop on their way home was one of the reasons for the original laws, NO WAY Jose, being relaxed to OK, but only for a couple of hours.

[Harrowby Hall]

Dearie Me,

Will Sunday opening affect the small trader, yes of course, who relies on the small trader, non drivers, the aged, the ill.

Bad idea.

Gonnagle.

Do small traders only open on Sunday, then?

Aren't they in competition with large traders on Mon, Tue, Wed, Thur, Fri and Sat? If these days are not profitable and they need the income from Sunday trade to survive, why don;t they just stay shut on the other days and reduce their costs?

[Aruntraveller]

Of course it should go without saying that the enemies of free choice are typically people in thrall to absolutist, dogmatic, my-way-or-the-highway religious belief systems. Look for opposition to abortion, assisted suicide, same-sex marriage and Sunday trading and more often than not - by a very long way - you'll find religionists and especially monotheists.

Hmmmm.....You know me well enough by now to know my position on the other topics you mentioned, I'd be interested to hear how you think I fit into this little explanation of yours

[Hope]

How strict are the anti-ST faction?

Is it just shops - I mean, pretty obvious shops like Tesco and Morrisons - that they don't want to see operating after 16:00 of a Sunday, or does it extend to, let us say, the power-generating people (I know; I've been round a power station, hard hat and all; I was there, man, I was there) who work in power stations to keep the lights and the tellies and the Sky+HD boxes going no matter what day or what time of day it is, Sundays, Easter Sundays, Christmas Days and all. I'd love to know how consistent they are in their position.

Just asking, like. I really am genuinely interested.

OK, Shaker, you start your post asking how consistent the anti-Sunday Trading faction is.  Since the issue isn't about whether there should be Sunday Trading or not - and in fact the whole Sunday Trading debate in England & Wales has never, in our life-times, been about that anyway, you seem to be trying to set up a straw man.  In your second paragraph you give an example that is nothing to do with commodity trading (after all, have you ever tried to contact your electricity provider on a Sunday, other than in an emergency - when you probably won't contact your provider anyway but a distributor), indicating that you are really determined to get this straw man to appear realistic.

As things stand, our modern society is massively reliant on electricity for survival - be that central heating, the use of TVs and other electronic equipment, cooking, light.  I'm not sure that anyone is that reliant on shopping in supermarkets on a Sunday.

Jeremy then makes his even more fatuous comment about police and firefighters (not to mention, of course, nurses, doctors, carers, etc.).  As far as I am aware, none of those just listed (or those like them) are providing a service that offers commercial transactions.

Jeremy then makes the comment that "But they offer less choice at higher prices than a supermarket.  Why must the public be forced to subsidise high priced poor quality services?"  I accept that they may be slightly higher priced, but I can usually buy better quality fresh food from an independent butcher or greengrocer than from any supermarket; however, I can also take you to the same area of our village and point out three independent food retailers whose goods are not only better quality than the stuff available in the Tesco Extra, but are no more expensive than that place now charges.  When it first opened, its prices were rock-bottom but as soon as it put its chief competitors out of business, it increased the prices by about 8% (according to a local economist who was brought in to review the impact of their first year's trading).

[Hope]

Of course it should go without saying that the enemies of free choice are typically people in thrall to absolutist, dogmatic, my-way-or-the-highway religious belief systems. Look for opposition to abortion, assisted suicide, same-sex marriage and Sunday trading and more often than not - by a very long way - you'll find religionists and especially monotheists. It's their thing; only one god means only one way - their way. That's why comparatively recent (i.e. incrementally over the last few centuries or so) human history in this specific context has been a history of religionists having pluralism thrust upon them with extreme reluctance, with pushback and opposition and whiny crybaby won't-somebody-think-of-the-children bleating consistently throughout.

Of course, the unions, medical experts and other such groups who might have religious opinions but who debate such things on very different grounds should never be thought of as opposing them.  Its only the religious who seem to have consciences, Shaker.