Extended Sunday opening hours

[BeRational]

Hope

Why are you against freedom of choice?

[Hope]

Hope

Why are you against freedom of choice?

Who said I was?  After all, as you have said yourself, extending trading hours for supermarkets could be more convenient for you, but who is to say that it is more convenient for everyone?  As I said in my precious post, there are plenty of groups with no religious axe to grind who have opposed previous attempts to extend Sunday Trading hours by supermarkets.

If you can provide indisputable evidence that Osborne's suggestion that extending trading hours on a Sunday for large stores and supermarkets will act to improve the economy, I'll happily accept the change.  I would point out that the comparative evidence produced by the big companies prior to the 1994 Act hasn't really proven correct.    There has been growth in some sectors but not in others; there has been growth in some forms of outlet but not in others.  Scotland has always had a different legislative context, so for people to use them as an example is to compare pineapples with grapes.

[BeRational]

Hope

Why are you against freedom of choice?

Who said I was?  After all, as you have said yourself, extending trading hours for supermarkets could be more convenient for you, but who is to say that it is more convenient for everyone?  As I said in my precious post, there are plenty of groups with no religious axe to grind who have opposed previous attempts to extend Sunday Trading hours by supermarkets.

If you can provide indisputable evidence that Osborne's suggestion that extending trading hours on a Sunday for large stores and supermarkets will act to improve the economy, I'll happily accept the change.  I would point out that the comparative evidence produced by the big companies prior to the 1994 Act hasn't really proven correct.    There has been growth in some sectors but not in others; there has been growth in some forms of outlet but not in others.  Scotland has always had a different legislative context, so for people to use them as an example is to compare pineapples with grapes.

I don't need to provide anything.

I am a n favour of shops etc being allowed to open if they wish to.
That is freedom of choice.

You want to block that freedom so YOU are against freedom of choice.

What other freedoms would you like to remove?

Can they be open Saturday? Should all shops close every day at 4?

[BashfulAnthony]

Hope

Why are you against freedom of choice?

Who said I was?  After all, as you have said yourself, extending trading hours for supermarkets could be more convenient for you, but who is to say that it is more convenient for everyone?  As I said in my precious post, there are plenty of groups with no religious axe to grind who have opposed previous attempts to extend Sunday Trading hours by supermarkets.

If you can provide indisputable evidence that Osborne's suggestion that extending trading hours on a Sunday for large stores and supermarkets will act to improve the economy, I'll happily accept the change.  I would point out that the comparative evidence produced by the big companies prior to the 1994 Act hasn't really proven correct.    There has been growth in some sectors but not in others; there has been growth in some forms of outlet but not in others.  Scotland has always had a different legislative context, so for people to use them as an example is to compare pineapples with grapes.

I don't need to provide anything.

I am a n favour of shops etc being allowed to open if they wish to.
That is freedom of choice.

You want to block that freedom so YOU are against freedom of choice.

What other freedoms would you like to remove?

Can they be open Saturday? Should all shops close every day at 4?

Some shops are allowed to open if they wish, and they do;  all are allowed to open.  You are just a selfish individual, who wants it all for your convenience, regardless of the opinions of those who actually have to do the job.

[Gordon]

From the outside looking in it seems to me that the issue in E&W isn't simply shopping on Sunday, since small shops and even smaller supermarkets can open for more than 6 trading hours, but for some reason there is a specific restriction on larger supermarkets: what is the justification for that?

The idea, and the one that Hope seems to support, is that there needs to be a clear economic benefit before larger supermarkets in E&W should be allowed to trade freely on Sunday - and my question is why this is at all relevant to removing what looks like an arbitrary restriction: why not remove it simply because the current arrangement is restrictive?

The retail business is very cost-conscious and will close loss-making shops at the drop of hat so the only way that unrestricted Sunday trading would work in E&W, if allowed, would be if the general public made sufficient use of the facility (and it isn't compulsory!). 

It may be that we in Scotland have never had the legislative baggage that applies in E&W but in other respects shopping is still just shopping and that I can go to my local Tesco (in Milngavie) at, say, 8.30pm this Sunday evening and do a 'serious' weekly shop but Shaker isn't allowed to does seem ridiculous.         

[Hope]

The idea, and the one that Hope seems to support, is that there needs to be a clear economic benefit before larger supermarkets in E&W should be allowed to trade freely on Sunday - and my question is why this is at all relevant to removing what looks like an arbitrary restriction: why not remove it simply because the current arrangement is restrictive?

Gordon, the reason Osbourne gave for the proposal was that it would boost the economy.  That is why I specifically asked for economic observations on the idea in the OP.  In other words, does the reason behind the idea actually stack up or not.

OK, I accept - having just re-read the OP for the first time in a while - I could have made this reasoning from Osbourne plainer in my opening paragraph, but I did make it pretty plain in my second paragraph that that was the focus of the thread - something you and Shaker clearly didn't choose to follow in your initial responses.

[Hope]

I am a n favour of shops etc being allowed to open if they wish to.
That is freedom of choice.

You want to block that freedom so YOU are against freedom of choice.

Which shops aren't allowed to open on a Sunday, BR?  Which am I arguing for not being permitted to open?

[BeRational]

I am a n favour of shops etc being allowed to open if they wish to.
That is freedom of choice.

You want to block that freedom so YOU are against freedom of choice.

Which shops aren't allowed to open on a Sunday, BR?  Which am I arguing for not being permitted to open?

Are you happy for supermarkets or any shops that want to being open all day Sunday?

If not, why not?

[Hope]

Are you happy for supermarkets or any shops that want to being open all day Sunday?

If not, why not?

I've answered this question earlier in the thread, BR - keep up     But I'll give it again for your benefit.  In the context of this thread, I'm happy for this to happen if the reasons given by George Osbourne actually reflect reality and that people aren't forced to work on Sundays against their consciences and wills.  Remember that some employers will seek to use existing Monday - Sunday staff rather than bringing new folk on board because that larger workforce costs more overall.

[BeRational]

Are you happy for supermarkets or any shops that want to being open all day Sunday?

If not, why not?

I've answered this question earlier in the thread, BR - keep up     But I'll give it again for your benefit.  In the context of this thread, I'm happy for this to happen if the reasons given by George Osbourne actually reflect reality and that people aren't forced to work on Sundays against their consciences and wills.  Remember that some employers will seek to use existing Monday - Sunday staff rather than bringing new folk on board because that larger workforce costs more overall.

So if you are happy with Sunday being open like any other day, what is the issue?

We agree.

[Hope]

So if you are happy with Sunday being open like any other day, what is the issue?

We agree.

So, you have evidence that Osbourne's reasoning is correct?  If so perhaps you could provide it.  This thread is now 7 pages long and you haven't provided it yet.  Are you afraid to do so?

[BeRational]

So if you are happy with Sunday being open like any other day, what is the issue?

We agree.

So, you have evidence that Osbourne's reasoning is correct?  If so perhaps you could provide it.  This thread is now 7 pages long and you haven't provided it yet.  Are you afraid to do so?

I do not need to provide anything.

I am happy for shops to stay open on Sunday on the same basis as they do on all other days.

You need to show why Sunday should be treated differently as it is just another day.

[ProfessorDavey]

Jeremy then makes the comment that "But they offer less choice at higher prices than a supermarket.  Why must the public be forced to subsidise high priced poor quality services?"  I accept that they may be slightly higher priced, but I can usually buy better quality fresh food from an independent butcher or greengrocer than from any supermarket; however, I can also take you to the same area of our village and point out three independent food retailers whose goods are not only better quality than the stuff available in the Tesco Extra, but are no more expensive than that place now charges.  When it first opened, its prices were rock-bottom but as soon as it put its chief competitors out of business, it increased the prices by about 8% (according to a local economist who was brought in to review the impact of their first year's trading).

But is your independent butcher open on a Sunday. Perhaps they are, but I think that would be rather unusual. Certainly round here we have plenty of independent food specialist shop, but they tend not to open on a Sunday. And I think when you want more specialist provision you may need to accept more restricted opening.

But that isn't really what we are talking about - we are talking about what I would call bread and butter shopping - basic groceries, clothes shopping and general day to day needs. I find it frustrating that if you need to shop on a Sunday (and frankly for many people with busy lives this is the case) then you are forced into the middle hours of the day - so you have to fit your life around their opening hours, not the other way around.

And on smaller independents - actually increasingly they aren't going head to head with the big boys (those days are long gone) - they offer something different, perhaps more specialist, higher quality etc etc. And longer opening for the big boys might actually helot them - by turning Sunday into a more normal shopping day I think quite a few of those independents might being to realise that opening on a Sunday makes financial sense and increases their turnover, profitability and sustainability as footfall increases.

[ProfessorDavey]

Remember that some employers will seek to use existing Monday - Sunday staff rather than bringing new folk on board because that larger workforce costs more overall.

But if staff are already contracted to work their hours potentially across 7 days, why would there be any difference if 9 out of their 35 hours per week might sometimes be on a Sunday, rather than the current 6 out of their 35.

Actually I think staff would prefer it - on of the problems currently is that staff have their Sunday disrupted if they are working that day, but aren't able to actually work a full day.

And if shops chose to open longer hours overall they will need additional staff or will need to ask whether existing staff want to work longer hours. And in our current world of zero hours contracts, under-employed people (i.e. people working less hours than they wish) and unemployed people surely that's a good thing.

[ProfessorDavey]

The retail business is very cost-conscious and will close loss-making shops at the drop of hat so the only way that unrestricted Sunday trading would work in E&W, if allowed, would be if the general public made sufficient use of the facility (and it isn't compulsory!).

I can't see that they wouldn't.

Certainly round my way the 6 hours my local Morrisons is open on a Sunday are just about the busiest you'll encounter. Car park full, scrums of people. Compared to say 11am on a Tuesday when your likely to encounter no none than half a dozen pensioners and a few mums with pre-school age kids.

And the reason is obvious. Millions of people work, and still by and large that work occupies them Monday to Friday so available shopping time for these people is largely restricted to two days from 7. Restrict one of those days massively in terms of opening hours and it is hardly surprising that it is very busy.

[Shaker]

Of course it should go without saying that the enemies of free choice are typically people in thrall to absolutist, dogmatic, my-way-or-the-highway religious belief systems. Look for opposition to abortion, assisted suicide, same-sex marriage and Sunday trading and more often than not - by a very long way - you'll find religionists and especially monotheists.

Hmmmm.....You know me well enough by now to know my position on the other topics you mentioned, I'd be interested to hear how you think I fit into this little explanation of yours

You don't - that's why I said typically and not something like entirely or exclusively or similar.

[Shaker]

From the outside looking in it seems to me that the issue in E&W isn't simply shopping on Sunday, since small shops and even smaller supermarkets can open for more than 6 trading hours, but for some reason there is a specific restriction on larger supermarkets: what is the justification for that?

It's entirely arbitrary, Gord.

It may be that we in Scotland have never had the legislative baggage that applies in E&W but in other respects shopping is still just shopping and that I can go to my local Tesco (in Milngavie) at, say, 8.30pm this Sunday evening and do a 'serious' weekly shop but Shaker isn't allowed to does seem ridiculous.         

I'm probably a very long way from where you are Gordon; to make the comparison even sharper and to highlight how ridiculous the situation really is, think of a Tesco only just over the border - either in Cumbria or Northumberland. It's sheer madness.

[Hope]

I find it frustrating that if you need to shop on a Sunday (and frankly for many people with busy lives this is the case) then you are forced into the middle hours of the day - so you have to fit your life around their opening hours, not the other way around.

We sometimes have to do our weekly shop on a Sunday; doing it during the 'middle' of the day suits us and many others I know.

And longer opening for the big boys might actually helot them - by turning Sunday into a more normal shopping day I think quite a few of those independents might being to realise that opening on a Sunday makes financial sense and increases their turnover, profitability and sustainability as footfall increases.

It might do, but where they already do so, the evidence seems to be inconclusive in that regard.

That is, at least in part, why I opened the thread - so as to give folk a chance to express that evidence.  What your or BR's personal opinion is, is of less interest to me.

[ProfessorDavey]

We sometimes have to do our weekly shop on a Sunday; doing it during the 'middle' of the day suits us and many others I know.

So once again this is a case of people being expected to fit their lives around the shop opening times.

The problem with the 10-4 or 11-5 position is that it takes out the middle of the day. So if you want to do something else, e.g. as a family - you can't. If you can get in at 8am (just as you can on any other day) or perhaps at 7pm (just as you can on any other day) you can fit your shopping around your life, not the other way around.

So it might suit you (and therefore change or no change has no effect) but really rather ofter it doesn't suit met and my family. Your attitude seems to be a bit 'I'm all right Jack, don't give a stuff about you'. But I'm also prepared to bet that you, like me, have sometimes been doing a DIY job, or perhaps some bike repair, or maybe working in the garden. Suddenly realised you need something rather vital to complete the job on a Sunday afternoon and discovered to your horror that it is 3:55 and the relevant shop will be forced to close (although they probably don't want to) in five minutes time.

But the larger point is this. If shops want to open as long on a Sunday as they do on other days and there are people happy to work those times (which already happens in all sorts of other places) and there are people who want to shop at those time, why on earth are they prevented from doing so.

So look at my upcoming weekend - and I haven't even thrown in 3 kids parties that the kids will need to be ferried to. Saturday is completely out, as is the whole of Sunday afternoon. And my daughter has a party on Sunday morning from 11. So if she needs new shoes (for example), explain to me when exactly we are going do that? If the shoe shop was open from 9 on Sunday (as they are on every other day) then all if fine. But they aren't - they don't open until 11.

[Nearly Sane]

I am not really bothered about Sunday opening but this whining about not being able to buy some shoes for your daughter because shops are only open 6 hours on a Sunday due to your inability to prioritise or plan would be the definition of a first world problem were it not so laughable.

[ProfessorDavey]

I am not really bothered about Sunday opening but this whining about not being able to buy some shoes for your daughter because shops are only open 6 hours on a Sunday due to your inability to prioritise or plan would be the definition of a first world problem were it not so laughable.

Fine - if your life is so bereft of stuff going on that you can pick and choose the time you shop, good for you. Indeed I am rather jelous. But this isn't the case for everyone, and indeed is pretty well par for the course for the classic two working parents with kids family.

I do not have an inability to plan, quite the reverse, but most of the things I am talking about aren't commitments we can change the times of. Do you think we can go back to the parents of a friend and ask that they change the time of their party just for us. Or a scheduled gymnastics class, or a choir rehearsal and concert, or the timing of a Duke of Edinburgh expedition. Nope these are all entirely out of our control in terms of timing.
 
But on prioritisation - yup I would like to be able to prioritise other stuff over the need to get to the shops, not the other way around. That's the point and I can't see that's unreasonable.

Sure I imagine once the kids are gone life will become much less complicated and we will have much more flexibility for shopping. But that isn't the world for us now, nor for millions of other similar parents.

And I can't see how I am asking for anything unreasonable. Merely for shops to be allowed to open more hours on a Sunday.

[Nearly Sane]

Yep, no one has ever managed to bring up children and buy them shoes because shops are never open long enough on a Sunday! Oh wait they have.

Your whole argument is one long unrealistic w h i i i n e. I suggest you stop posting such nonsense and go and buy the shoes.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yep, no one has ever managed to bring up children and buy them shoes because shops are never open long enough on a Sunday! Oh wait they have.

Your whole argument is one long unrealistic w h i i i n e. I suggest you stop posting such nonsense and go and buy the shoes.

Go and buy shoes now - how - my daughter is at school. And I think you'll find that the child needs to be present to buy shoes that fit!

And I am not saying that it is impossible to buy shoes currently (that would be daft) - but that the current restrictions means that you end up having to plan your weekend around when the shops are open, rather than being able to arrange your shopping needs around the rest of life. The restrictions make things harder than they need to be.

Clearly your life is very different, but this is my life and the life of millions of similar people. All I am asking is for an unnecessary restriction to be removed which will reduce the complexity of standard modern family life just a touch. Why is that unreasonable.

[Ricky Spanish]

So look at my upcoming weekend - and I haven't even thrown in 3 kids parties that the kids will need to be ferried to. Saturday is completely out, as is the whole of Sunday afternoon. And my daughter has a party on Sunday morning from 11. So if she needs new shoes (for example), explain to me when exactly we are going do that?

This evening?

[ProfessorDavey]

So look at my upcoming weekend - and I haven't even thrown in 3 kids parties that the kids will need to be ferried to. Saturday is completely out, as is the whole of Sunday afternoon. And my daughter has a party on Sunday morning from 11. So if she needs new shoes (for example), explain to me when exactly we are going do that?

This evening?

The shoe shops close at 5:30pm and neither me nor my wife will be home from work by then. And my daughter is at after school club until 5:30.

So, nope that doesn't work.