Extended Sunday opening hours

[ProfessorDavey]

Dear Forum Members,

Quick someone dial 911( American Police will get there quicker than our Police, more Tory cut backs ) the good Prof has swallowed the Tory manifesto and ethos.

Gonnagle.

No I think you have got it the wrong way around.

I am supporting an approach which is likely to increase jobs. In what way is that supporting a Tory cuts agenda?

And I think you will find that that it wasn't the Tories who were focusing on people on zero hours contracts or stuck in part time contracts when they wanting to work longer hours. I think that was the opposition.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Prof,

Well you talk about workers contracts, but who calls the tune, in no time those contracts would be worthless, money and profit rule, way of the world, I would love anybody to argue against that fact.

Here in Scotland we have that battle at the moment, Scot rail, train drivers don't need to work Sundays, it is optional, but money will win, what ever the outcome, the train Drivers might get extra money but they will lose the choice, and that is another black mark on society, workers need unions to protect their rights, why, owners only see money, they don't see people.

Gonnagle.

Mr G
my fear is that they will not create sunday jobs for new people but just ''extend'' existing jobs.

We need to preserve or extend small business trading on a sunday .

[ProfessorDavey]

my fear is that they will not create sunday jobs for new people but just ''extend'' existing jobs.

But why is this a problem if people are currently working part time and want to work more hours. If people are already working full time then there is the working time directive which would prevent them working more. And if their contract is for a certain number of hours they cannot be forced to work more anyhow.

We need to preserve or extend small business trading on a sunday.

I don't disagree but I don't see why extending opening hours for other shops would affect them in a detrimental manner - as I've suggested elsewhere I think there are plenty of firms that may benefit as there is a broadly increased footfall on a Sunday.

Anyhow I think there are far more serious threats to small businesses than the big boys being able to open for a couple more hours. The most obvious being firstly on-line business and secondly the ability of large firms to create an unfair playing field by exporting their profits and therefore reducing their corporation tax liabilities, sometimes effectively to zero which gives an unfair competitive advantage in my view.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Prof,

Army of students, yes I would imagine that is Tory thinking to.

Which leads on to another Tory lie,  helping the worker, yes part time jobs help the workers.

Tory party, anti Christian anti British, even if the Tory party turn round the economy they will still have lost, or rather this country will have lost.

Gonnagle.

[jeremyp]

I accept that they may be slightly higher priced, but I can usually buy better quality fresh food from an independent butcher or greengrocer than from any supermarket;

The variety of food on offer is part of the shopping experience. 

however, I can also take you to the same area of our village and point out three independent food retailers whose goods are not only better quality than the stuff available in the Tesco Extra, but are no more expensive than that place now charges.  When it first opened, its prices were rock-bottom but as soon as it put its chief competitors out of business, it increased the prices by about 8% (according to a local economist who was brought in to review the impact of their first year's trading).

So these three shops that offer better quality produce than Tesco are still trading?  Doesn't that give the lie to your fear that the supermarkets will put local shops out of business?

[jeremyp]

We agree.

So, you have evidence that Osbourne's reasoning is correct?[/quote]

Osbourne's reasoning doesn't have to be correct.  Only Be Rational's reasoning has to be correct.

[ProfessorDavey]

I accept that they may be slightly higher priced, but I can usually buy better quality fresh food from an independent butcher or greengrocer than from any supermarket;

The variety of food on offer is part of the shopping experience. 

however, I can also take you to the same area of our village and point out three independent food retailers whose goods are not only better quality than the stuff available in the Tesco Extra, but are no more expensive than that place now charges.  When it first opened, its prices were rock-bottom but as soon as it put its chief competitors out of business, it increased the prices by about 8% (according to a local economist who was brought in to review the impact of their first year's trading).

So these three shops that offer better quality produce than Tesco are still trading?  Doesn't that give the lie to your fear that the supermarkets will put local shops out of business?

Actually I think that most of the shops that were going head to head with the supermarkets went out of business years ago. Those that have survived offer something different, whether that be different choice, better quality, better and more personal service, more ethical approach (e.g. locally sources, organic etc). I'm not sure why the supermarkets being open for a few extra hours on Sunday will affect them because they will still retain their distinctiveness which why they are successful int eh first place.

But I think there may be some shops that will positive benefit. So for example we have a local record shop - it is on on Sundays but the general footfall in town is quite limited due to the restricted opening of the big boys. Were their opening hours to be more like a Saturday I think there would be more people around, spending longer in town and just maybe popping into the record shop to buy some vinyl. And of course they aren't going head to head with anyone else on the hughstreet, because major chain record shops vanished years ago.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jeremyp,

Part of the shopping experience, fuck me!! Here's another, Mum can I get that bloody useless plastic toy made in China.

And one more for the people in the cheap seats, Mum can I get, shut up its a food bank.

Jeremyp, I do love you, honest.

Gonnagle.

[BashfulAnthony]

On BBC News today they discussed the opening Sunday possibilities, and someone pointed out that during the2012 Olympics, when shops were allowed to open as usual on Sundays, supermarket takings went up by 2%, on average, but small shop takings went down by 4% on average.  So, what about the welfare of the small shops, and their workers, rather than just the selfish, "I want to be able to shop when I want," merchants?

[Harrowby Hall]

On BBC News today they discussed the opening Sunday possibilities, and someone pointed out that during the2012 Olympics, when shops were allowed to open as usual on Sundays, supermarket takings went up by 2%, on average, but small shop takings went down by 4% on average.  So, what about the welfare of the small shops, and their workers, rather than just the selfish, "I want to be able to shop when I want," merchants?

I think that you have answered your own question: open the supermarkets on Sundays and close the small shops.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

On BBC News today they discussed the opening Sunday possibilities, and someone pointed out that during the2012 Olympics, when shops were allowed to open as usual on Sundays, supermarket takings went up by 2%, on average, but small shop takings went down by 4% on average.  So, what about the welfare of the small shops, and their workers, rather than just the selfish, "I want to be able to shop when I want," merchants?

I think that you have answered your own question: open the supermarkets on Sundays and close the small shops.

or not, as the case may be.

[Shaker]

Is there something inherently good, fine, noble, praiseworthy and deserving of protection and preservation about small shops (which for current legal purposes is anything under the entirely arbitrary 280 sq. m/3000 sq. ft.)? I see a lot of standing up for the small shop by the anti-choice brigade on here with no justification offered as to why except that they're small, apparently.

[wigginhall]

In my bit of Norfolk, they seem to co-exist happily.  People do their 'big shop' at the superstore, but there are still shops in some villages.  For example, my local Co-op does a roaring trade, and is not a supermarket really. 

I can see why people are upset at small shops closing in rural areas, as it is part of a trend, for example, pubs closing, post offices, and police stations.  So some areas start to resemble scorched earth, in the sense that there are absolutely no facilities left, and you have to have a car to reach them.   I don't know if Sunday opening will have any impact on this really.   

[ProfessorDavey]

Is there something inherently good, fine, noble, praiseworthy and deserving of protection and preservation about small shops (which for current legal purposes is anything under the entirely arbitrary 280 sq. m/3000 sq. ft.)? I see a lot of standing up for the small shop by the anti-choice brigade on here with no justification offered as to why except that they're small, apparently.

But the law currently defines 'small' simply be floor area, not by whether the shop is an independent. And I think when people are talking about protecting small shops they are talking about independents.

So round my way the local 'big' supermarket is a Morrisons. If it opened longer on Sundays the most obvious shops affected would be a Tescos extra just down the road and a small Sainsbury in a local garage. Are you concerned about perhaps moving some custom from Tesco or Sainsbury to Morrisons. Nope I doubt it - that isn't what people are thinking about when considering the small shops.

And there are small independents (or small chains) in the area, but they have already differentiated themselves from Morrisons as they already need to compete 6 days a week 8 til 8. The survive already because they offer something different, rather than offering the same but longer (that's non-sense). So I doubt they'd be particularly affected nor worried.

[ProfessorDavey]

In my bit of Norfolk, they seem to co-exist happily.  People do their 'big shop' at the superstore, but there are still shops in some villages.  For example, my local Co-op does a roaring trade, and is not a supermarket really. 

I can see why people are upset at small shops closing in rural areas, as it is part of a trend, for example, pubs closing, post offices, and police stations.  So some areas start to resemble scorched earth, in the sense that there are absolutely no facilities left, and you have to have a car to reach them.   I don't know if Sunday opening will have any impact on this really.

That's right - they are often called convenience stores for a reason.

I can get my paper in the post-office or the Morrisons over the road. When I buy a paper, usually this is the only thing I buy and it takes 30 seconds in the post-office (on my way to the station). It would take five minutes in Morrisons. That's why I get it in the post-office even through both are open at the time I purchase my paper.

[wigginhall]

Post office? Eh?  What the hell is that?  Does it involve a man sitting on a coach blowing a long horn and encouraging the horses to speed up?

[Rhiannon]

Same here, Wiggs. I remember a huge campaign here for a superstore (later rejected) by parents who couldn't be arsed to drive another ten minutes to buy cheap school uniform. The local shops had a gap to fill - even just socks and underwear - but didn't.

My nearest shop is three miles away and I can get there by public transport, but only on Friday. Hardly 'convenient'. But the pub has unused space it could run a shop from, but the owners don't want the hassle.

I suppose I'll be able to buy a tin of paint an hour earlier but otherwise this isn't going to have a massive impact on how I shop.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Is there something inherently good, fine, noble, praiseworthy and deserving of protection and preservation about small shops (which for current legal purposes is anything under the entirely arbitrary 280 sq. m/3000 sq. ft.)? I see a lot of standing up for the small shop by the anti-choice brigade on here with no justification offered as to why except that they're small, apparently.

Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday, but then you are an Anti-theist.
Secondly I was just about to ask you whether you were pro No national weekly holiday
JUST BECAUSE IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO STICK ONE ON THE RELIGIOUS?

Supermarkets are major operations. They require national distribution chains.
They demand highway space to draw people to shop in them.
To have society without a national weekly holiday we believe means a lack of personal and social ''recovery'' from the rigours of work. Not to have this we believe means increased stress and wear on personnel, machinery, energy resources and infrastructure. So there is plenty of justification. You in your infinite lack of wisdom have chosen to SKIM over it.

[Shaker]

Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday, but then you are an Anti-theist.

Correct.

Secondly I was just about to ask you whether you were pro No national weekly holiday
JUST BECAUSE IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO STICK ONE ON THE RELIGIOUS?

I am against enforced 'holidays' and dictating how people can spend their time, if that's what you mean. Especially when dictated by a minority of the population.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday, but then you are an Anti-theist.

Correct.

Secondly I was just about to ask you whether you were pro No national weekly holiday
JUST BECAUSE IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO STICK ONE ON THE RELIGIOUS?

I am against enforced 'holidays' and dictating how people can spend their time, if that's what you mean. Especially when dictated by a minority of the population.

Yes, but you are pro the law, particularly when it ensures compliance from wayward religious.

To get your antitheistic, anti keep sunday special, anti, well, personnel, juices going.....not only do I want to keep the law how it is I'd want to turn the clock back on sundays........or to be fair have a referendum, but it would be more convenient to have sunday for national renewal.

You are a skimmer Shakes and a monomaniacal antitheist and I can't take your temporary conversion to unbridled capitalism, just because it sticks one on the theists, very seriously

[jeremyp]

Dear Jeremyp,

Part of the shopping experience, fuck me!! Here's another, Mum can I get that bloody useless plastic toy made in China.

And one more for the people in the cheap seats, Mum can I get, shut up its a food bank.

Jeremyp, I do love you, honest.

Gonnagle.

I know you like throwing your straw men into the conversation, but please try to keep it relevant.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Jeremyp,

Part of the shopping experience, fuck me!! Here's another, Mum can I get that bloody useless plastic toy made in China.

And one more for the people in the cheap seats, Mum can I get, shut up its a food bank.

Jeremyp, I do love you, honest.

Gonnagle.

I know you like throwing your straw men into the conversation, but please try to keep it relevant.

Chucking pointless response from you, Jeremy.

[jeremyp]

On BBC News today they discussed the opening Sunday possibilities, and someone pointed out that during the2012 Olympics, when shops were allowed to open as usual on Sundays, supermarket takings went up by 2%, on average, but small shop takings went down by 4% on average.  So, what about the welfare of the small shops, and their workers, rather than just the selfish, "I want to be able to shop when I want," merchants?

What about them?

As PD says, small shops that offer something different to the supermarkets will still be OK. Perhaps they might even benefit.  Inferior but more expensive versions of the supermarkets will be in trouble.  But so what? 

[Shaker]

Yes, but you are pro the law, particularly when it ensures compliance from wayward religious.

Yup. Georgie Boy is planning the change the law. Problem?

To get your antitheistic, anti keep sunday special, anti, well, personnel, juices going.....not only do I want to keep the law how it is I'd want to turn the clock back on sundays........or to be fair have a referendum, but it would be more convenient to have sunday for national renewal.

Good luck with that - you'll need it.

You are a skimmer Shakes and a monomaniacal antitheist and I can't take your temporary conversion to unbridled capitalism, just because it sticks one on the theists, very seriously

I'll survive.

[Rhiannon]

Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from? Medical personnel don't always get one. Rail workers, airline crew and ground staff, cab drivers, police and firefighters work weekends. Farmers, call centre workers, footballers and ground staff (including waiting and bar staff), rugby, cricket, horse racing all happen on a Sunday, pub staff, restaurant staff, chefs, all work. AA and RAC guys, estate agents, cratfspeople work weekends. And that's without those finishing off work at home before going back to the office or school on Monday.

Why are supermarket staff different?