Extended Sunday opening hours

[Walt Zingmatilder]

On BBC News today they discussed the opening Sunday possibilities, and someone pointed out that during the2012 Olympics, when shops were allowed to open as usual on Sundays, supermarket takings went up by 2%, on average, but small shop takings went down by 4% on average.  So, what about the welfare of the small shops, and their workers, rather than just the selfish, "I want to be able to shop when I want," merchants?

What about them?

As PD says, small shops that offer something different to the supermarkets will still be OK. Perhaps they might even benefit.  Inferior but more expensive versions of the supermarkets will be in trouble.  But so what?

How chucking naïve can you be. The supermarkets will find out what it is, sell it as a loss leader and put the small guys out of business.

 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You are a skimmer Shakes and a monomaniacal antitheist and I can't take your temporary conversion to unbridled capitalism, just because it sticks one on the theists, very seriously

I'll survive.

Who cares?

[Shaker]

In my bit of Norfolk, they seem to co-exist happily.  People do their 'big shop' at the superstore, but there are still shops in some villages.  For example, my local Co-op does a roaring trade, and is not a supermarket really. 

I can see why people are upset at small shops closing in rural areas, as it is part of a trend, for example, pubs closing, post offices, and police stations.  So some areas start to resemble scorched earth, in the sense that there are absolutely no facilities left, and you have to have a car to reach them.   I don't know if Sunday opening will have any impact on this really.

I didnt know you lived in Norlfok as well, wiggles - one of my favourite parts of the realm. Lucky you.

Boring as it may be, my experience is the same as yours and that of Rhiannon. In my corner of Leicestershire I just so happen to be unusually well-placed for shopping. There's a large retail park about three miles away, the biggest stores of which are Asda, Sainsbury and M & S - all gigantic. There's a similarly huge Tesco about three miles in another direction and likewise for Morrison in another. In my village the two largest stores are Waitrose and Aldi, pretty well facing each other across the main road, about a mile away so technically walkable but not if you're walking there, doing a full weekly shop and walking back to the edge of the village where I live. But there are sundry smaller convenience stores - which are within walking distance - for the little bits and pieces. All have existed for years, all do a roaring trade; in other words everybody shows every sign of co-existing happily and profitably. Which is exactly as it should be, as far as I'm concerned.

[jeremyp]

How chucking naïve can you be. The supermarkets will find out what it is, sell it as a loss leader and put the small guys out of business.

They would already be doing it, if they wanted to and I'm not saying they don't do it.  But the competitors to the supermarkets are the other supermarkets.  I doubt if they care about the local farm shop.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from? Medical personnel don't always get one. Rail workers, airline crew and ground staff, cab drivers, police and firefighters work weekends. Farmers, call centre workers, footballers and ground staff (including waiting and bar staff), rugby, cricket, horse racing all happen on a Sunday, pub staff, restaurant staff, chefs, all work. AA and RAC guys, estate agents, cratfspeople work weekends. And that's without those finishing off work at home before going back to the office or school on Monday.

Why are supermarket staff different?

No but the ''nation'' gets a weekly holiday.
Just like the ''nation'' deserves a pay rise.

[wigginhall]

Same here, Wiggs. I remember a huge campaign here for a superstore (later rejected) by parents who couldn't be arsed to drive another ten minutes to buy cheap school uniform. The local shops had a gap to fill - even just socks and underwear - but didn't.

My nearest shop is three miles away and I can get there by public transport, but only on Friday. Hardly 'convenient'. But the pub has unused space it could run a shop from, but the owners don't want the hassle.

I suppose I'll be able to buy a tin of paint an hour earlier but otherwise this isn't going to have a massive impact on how I shop.

Do you ever go through Chatteris?  There's a ghost supermarket there, built by Tesco, but abandoned, when their balance sheet went a whiter shade of puce.   They built a new road for access, a new roundabout, and even diverted the local river.

I think the closing of small shops is a problem, as you end up with a village with no facilities at all, but it's hard to believe that Sunday opening will affect it.  There are many other factors. 

Actually, I think farm shops have increased a lot near me.  Everybody is getting in on the act.

[Rhiannon]

In my bit of Norfolk, they seem to co-exist happily.  People do their 'big shop' at the superstore, but there are still shops in some villages.  For example, my local Co-op does a roaring trade, and is not a supermarket really. 

I can see why people are upset at small shops closing in rural areas, as it is part of a trend, for example, pubs closing, post offices, and police stations.  So some areas start to resemble scorched earth, in the sense that there are absolutely no facilities left, and you have to have a car to reach them.   I don't know if Sunday opening will have any impact on this really.

I didnt know you lived in Norlfok as well, wiggles - one of my favourite parts of the realm. Lucky you.

Boring as it may be, my experience is the same as yours and that of Rhiannon. In my corner of Leicestershire I just so happen to be unusually well-placed for shopping. There's a large retail park about three miles away, the biggest stores of which are Asda, Sainsbury and M & S - all gigantic. There's a similarly huge Tesco about three miles in another direction and likewise for Morrison in another. In my village the two largest stores are Waitrose and Aldi, pretty well facing each other across the main road, about a mile away so technically walkable but not if you're walking there, doing a full weekly shop and walking back to the edge of the village where I live. But there are sundry smaller convenience stores - which are within walking distance - for the little bits and pieces. All have existed for years, all do a roaring trade; in other words everybody shows every sign of co-existing happily and profitably. Which is exactly as it should be, as far as I'm concerned.

I have to drive everywhere though - our village shop died because it was crap, frankly. There's an excellent range of small shops in the neighbouring villages though - various butchers, bakers, and well-run convenience stores. They know their market and go for a mix of budget and high end produce and it works. And they do diversify - I've yet to work out why the pet shop-ironmongers also sells DVDs but it does well out of them.

[Shaker]

Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from?

From people who think that you should have a day of rest - especially a Sunday, for some reason - and do nothing whether you want to do nothing or not. Because it's good for you, and they know best.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday, but then you are an Anti-theist.

Which you seem to think must be on a Sunday - hmm wonder why that may be.

But just to check that you are being consistent in your demand for a weekly national holiday on a Sunday I trust you will ensure that it applies to all non essential/emergency services so that no-one providing those services works on a Sunday.

So for example there are some employees for whom Sunday is usually their busiest working day - namely vicars and priests - I trust you also will require them to have a day off on Sunday too. So no church services on a Sunday either as that requires people to work on Sunday.

Or are you just being a tad hypocritical.

[Rhiannon]

Same here, Wiggs. I remember a huge campaign here for a superstore (later rejected) by parents who couldn't be arsed to drive another ten minutes to buy cheap school uniform. The local shops had a gap to fill - even just socks and underwear - but didn't.

My nearest shop is three miles away and I can get there by public transport, but only on Friday. Hardly 'convenient'. But the pub has unused space it could run a shop from, but the owners don't want the hassle.

I suppose I'll be able to buy a tin of paint an hour earlier but otherwise this isn't going to have a massive impact on how I shop.

Do you ever go through Chatteris?  There's a ghost supermarket there, built by Tesco, but abandoned, when their balance sheet went a whiter shade of puce.   They built a new road for access, a new roundabout, and even diverted the local river.

I think the closing of small shops is a problem, as you end up with a village with no facilities at all, but it's hard to believe that Sunday opening will affect it.  There are many other factors. 

Actually, I think farm shops have increased a lot near me.  Everybody is getting in on the act.

No, not near Chatteris. Doesn't surprise me though. No doubt George's development reforms will mean it gets houses instead.

The small shops I've known close have been too small to have decent stock and hence charge too much. But I think the cuts to public transport have a huge effect. The convenience shops work in the larger villages and those that are easy to reach. In a village like mine a shop has to be a 'destination' to work- a speciality of some kind.

Agree about farm shops, loads of them here also usually with a cafe attached and a few chicken and goats to gawp at.

[Rhiannon]

Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from?

From people who think that you should have a day of rest - especially a Sunday, for some reason - and do nothing whether you want to do nothing or not. Because it's good for you, and they know best.

But the reality of that has been dead in the water for decades, surely?

[Shaker]

Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from?

From people who think that you should have a day of rest - especially a Sunday, for some reason - and do nothing whether you want to do nothing or not. Because it's good for you, and they know best.

But the reality of that has been dead in the water for decades, surely?

Vlad appears not to have caught up.

[ProfessorDavey]

Same here, Wiggs. I remember a huge campaign here for a superstore (later rejected) by parents who couldn't be arsed to drive another ten minutes to buy cheap school uniform. The local shops had a gap to fill - even just socks and underwear - but didn't.

My nearest shop is three miles away and I can get there by public transport, but only on Friday. Hardly 'convenient'. But the pub has unused space it could run a shop from, but the owners don't want the hassle.

I suppose I'll be able to buy a tin of paint an hour earlier but otherwise this isn't going to have a massive impact on how I shop.

Do you ever go through Chatteris?  There's a ghost supermarket there, built by Tesco, but abandoned, when their balance sheet went a whiter shade of puce.   They built a new road for access, a new roundabout, and even diverted the local river.

I think the closing of small shops is a problem, as you end up with a village with no facilities at all, but it's hard to believe that Sunday opening will affect it.  There are many other factors. 

Actually, I think farm shops have increased a lot near me.  Everybody is getting in on the act.

No, not near Chatteris. Doesn't surprise me though. No doubt George's development reforms will mean it gets houses instead.

The small shops I've known close have been too small to have decent stock and hence charge too much. But I think the cuts to public transport have a huge effect. The convenience shops work in the larger villages and those that are easy to reach. In a village like mine a shop has to be a 'destination' to work- a speciality of some kind.

Agree about farm shops, loads of them here also usually with a cafe attached and a few chicken and goats to gawp at.

Agree on all that.

The effect of Sunday opening worked its way through the system years ago. The effect of opening a little longer won't be great. There are far more pressing reasons why small independent shops are struggling.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from?

From people who think that you should have a day of rest - especially a Sunday, for some reason - and do nothing whether you want to do nothing or not.

Nobody is saying ''do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.

[Shaker]

Nobody is saying ''do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.

So what exactly is it that you want people to do on their compulsory national holiday? You think they can't shop, or go to a, say, National Trust property or do anything which involves commerce, so what do you think they should be doing because you say so?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from?

From people who think that you should have a day of rest - especially a Sunday, for some reason - and do nothing whether you want to do nothing or not. Because it's good for you, and they know best.

But the reality of that has been dead in the water for decades, surely?

Vlad appears not to have caught up.

Nobody is saying ''Do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.
Regards reality, Change does not invariably mean progress, and progress does not invariably mean better....Chuck.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nobody is saying ''do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.

So what exactly is it that you want people to do on their compulsory national holiday? You think they can't shop, or go to a, say, National Trust property or do anything which involves commerce, so what do you think they should be doing because you say so?

Stop bullshitting.

[Shaker]

Nobody is saying ''do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.

So what exactly is it that you want people to do on their compulsory national holiday? You think they can't shop, or go to a, say, National Trust property or do anything which involves commerce, so what do you think they should be doing because you say so?

Stop bullshitting.

Stop evading the simple question I asked you.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nobody is saying ''do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.

So what exactly is it that you want people to do on their compulsory national holiday? You think they can't shop, or go to a, say, National Trust property or do anything which involves commerce, so what do you think they should be doing because you say so?

Stop bullshitting.

Stop evading the simple question I asked you.

You frame your question as a response to something I haven't suggested. Stop twisting things.

My position is clear. If you didn't make a virtue of skimming theists posts you would know what it is. If you know my position you are deliberately shaping questions around a misrepresention and I shan't play this sleezy little game no matter how moist it makes your audience.

[Shaker]

You frame your question as a response to something I haven't suggested.

What you "suggested" in # 320 was "Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday," by which I assume you don't mean a weekly holiday but one day off per week. People are not arguing against this - people are arguing that there's no reason why it must be a Sunday.

My position is clear.

No it isn't. You haven't, for example, explained why you think people should have an enforced day off from shopping whether they want to or not (most don't want to) because you say so.

If you didn't make a virtue of skimming theists posts you would know what it is. If you know my position

I don't - that's exactly why I'm asking you to explicate it.

you are deliberately shaping questions around a misrepresention and I shan't play this sleezy little game no matter how moist it makes your audience.

Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin ...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You frame your question as a response to something I haven't suggested.

What you "suggested" in # 320 was "Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday," by which I assume you don't mean a weekly holiday but one day off per week. People are not arguing against this - people are arguing that there's no reason why it must be a Sunday.

My position is clear.

No it isn't. You haven't, for example, explained why you think people should have an enforced day off from shopping whether they want to or not (most don't want to) because you say so.

If you didn't make a virtue of skimming theists posts you would know what it is. If you know my position

I don't - that's exactly why I'm asking you to explicate it.

you are deliberately shaping questions around a misrepresention and I shan't play this sleezy little game no matter how moist it makes your audience.

Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin ...

No if you had read the posts. I am pro small sunday business. What I'm against is the 24/7 domination of huge concerns and pro a little weekly change of pace.
The hyperbolic nonsense that anybody who is currently posting here wants everything become to become like an orthodox jewish Sabbath is yours (although that culture has seen off a few twenty four seven civilisations in it's time)

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nobody is saying ''do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.

So what exactly is it that you want people to do on their compulsory national holiday? You think they can't shop, or go to a, say, National Trust property or do anything which involves commerce, so what do you think they should be doing because you say so?

Stop bullshitting.

Stop evading the simple question I asked you.

You are just pandering to ''ADHD Nation''.
As if the extra consumerism will make people fitter rather than fatter.

[Shaker]

No if you had read the posts. I am pro small sunday business.

No argument from anybody else here about that, I'm sure.

What I'm against is the 24/7 domination of huge concerns and pro a little weekly change of pace.

What you seem to be saying is that you want everybody else to adopt your pace one day a week because you think they ought to, not because they want to.

The hyperbolic nonsense that anybody who is currently posting here wants everything become to become like an orthodox jewish Sabbath is yours (although that culture has seen off a few twenty four seven civilisations in it's time)

Such as?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You frame your question as a response to something I haven't suggested.

What you "suggested" in # 320 was "Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday," by which I assume you don't mean a weekly holiday but one day off per week. People are not arguing against this - people are arguing that there's no reason why it must be a Sunday.

Yes but why not a sunday?
Surely having anyday other than sunday would MERELY BE PANDERING TO THOSE WHO WANT TO STICK ONE ON THE THEISTS......and so Shaker...your motives are exposed.

Please give reasons why it should be any day other than sunday.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No if you had read the posts. I am pro small sunday business.

No argument from anybody else here about that, I'm sure.

What I'm against is the 24/7 domination of huge concerns and pro a little weekly change of pace.

What you seem to be saying is that you want everybody else to adopt your pace one day a week because you think they ought to, not because they want to.

The hyperbolic nonsense that anybody who is currently posting here wants everything become to become like an orthodox jewish Sabbath is yours (although that culture has seen off a few twenty four seven civilisations in it's time)

Such as?

Well Judaism was still going after the disappearance of the non Christian roman civilisation or some of the effective city states of the eastern Mediterranean.

where are those cultures now?