Extended Sunday opening hours

[BashfulAnthony]

The Olympic exercise was clear evidence that the supermarkets would further trample on the small shops, given the opportunity: see, M311.

So why fetishise smallness and lack of choice, then, as I asked earlier?

If families cannot get their weekly shop done, over six days of sometimes 24-hour opening, and six hours on a Sunday, then they should organise themselves better.

The ever clear Professor Davey has addressed this in multiple posts throughout this thread far better than I ever could.

It is possible to use both kinds of out-let;

That's what most people not only seem to want but actually have, if the experience of wigginhall, Rhiannon and myself (I think in rural or semi-rural areas in all cases) is anything to go by.

I am not doing anything of the sort.  I am merely saying it is unfair to allow the supermarkets an even bigger chance to dominate the market than they already have.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I can't be the only one to have noticed Shaker arguing both for Tuesday to be the national day of rest and for there to be no day of rest.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Rhiannon,

Post 418, WHAT!! The small shops keep the sweat shops running, we all know what keeps the sweat shops running, our greed.

Gonnagle.

Indeed. But the crap isn't exclusive to the supermarkets, or even their main focus, unlike many a pound shop and market stall. So how is this relevant to supermarkets being able to open longer on a Sunday?

[Shaker]

I can't be the only one to have noticed Shaker arguing both for Tuesday to be the national day of rest and for there to be no day of rest.

If you think that, either you don't read too well or don't understand too well.

Based on considerable experience my money's on the latter 

[Rhiannon]

Au contraire. I am saying that given the chance to take the easy option of using the supermarket rather than find a small shop that can provide what they want, they will choose the supermarket. And add further profit to the grasping giants.

Can the average person/family do a weekly shop and get all they want/need at a small shop, then?

No. No small shop near me sells any decent fresh fruit and veg, and there is no greengrocer. I have a choice of a once-a-week market guy, extortionate and erratic farm shops or the supermarket.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

A slippery slope, this argument is dead, we can argue until kingdom come, the world is standing up to consumerism, the question is, to little to late.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I can't be the only one to have noticed Shaker arguing both for Tuesday to be the national day of rest and for there to be no day of rest.

If you think that, either you don't read too well or don't understand too well.

Based on considerable experience my money's on the latter 

Which of your contradictory arguments is it that I should be understanding?

[Gordon]

Dear Gordon,

Or should I say Granda ( bugger I am hitting below the belt, sorry mate, yes I will buy you a malt of your choice ) where does it end, small shops are okay just now ( heavy empathise on now ) but when your Grand kids are looking after their Grand kids, what stories they will tell.

Gonnagle.

I don't think it even starts, Gonners, since while no doubt some small shops may close I doubt that this is mainly from competition from large supermarkets just between 4pm and 10pm on a Sunday. All the ones that have operated near me have been going for years now: I'd say they are meeting a different need, and if anything the main competition to local convenience shops are probably other local convenience shops.

My view on this is quite simple - some things change over time, and shopping is just one example, and recently the increase in internet/on-line shopping competes directly with large supermarkets: we have seen similar changes in banking, where these days I rarely visit a branch and use internet banking instead. Shopping is a reasonable and routine activity and I'm struggling to see why in Carlisle large supermarkets are legally constrained to 6 hours trading on  Sunday, while just up the road a little those in Dumfries aren't legally constrained in the same way.

I suspect that the main issue in E & W is that some there want their 'traditions' enforced.     

 

[Rhiannon]

Dear Rhiannon,

A slippery slope, this argument is dead, we can argue until kingdom come, the world is standing up to consumerism, the question is, to little to late.

Gonnagle.

Changing Sunday trading laws will have minimal impact on consumerism. The businesses who benefit from the current situation are no different. The ones who are part of the fight against consumerism -the bakers, butchers, greengrocers, delis - rarely open on Sundays.

[Gordon]

But, unfortunately, there is a gap as big as an elephant's bottom between them and what is good for all.

If it is 'good for all' to constrain ST then; a) who determines that this is indeed 'good for all' and how is this justified, and b) since I'm not constrained as you are then what negatives should I be wary of?

   

It is good for all because everyone can still shop on Sunday, but with less detrimental effect on the smaller shops.

You are assuming this 'detrimental effect' - where I live we have unrestricted Sunday trading and the convenience stores I used 20 years ago I still use today.   

[Sebastian Toe]

But, unfortunately, there is a gap as big as an elephant's bottom between them and what is good for all.

If it is 'good for all' to constrain ST then; a) who determines that this is indeed 'good for all' and how is this justified, and b) since I'm not constrained as you are then what negatives should I be wary of?

   

It is good for all because everyone can still shop on Sunday, but with less detrimental effect on the smaller shops.

You are assuming this 'detrimental effect' - where I live we have unrestricted Sunday trading and the convenience stores I used 20 years ago I still use today.

Ditto.

[Anchorman]

Dear Gordon,

Or should I say Granda ( bugger I am hitting below the belt, sorry mate, yes I will buy you a malt of your choice ) where does it end, small shops are okay just now ( heavy empathise on now ) but when your Grand kids are looking after their Grand kids, what stories they will tell.

Gonnagle.

-
Most small shops on my main street died when Thatcher butchered the mines, taking the trade away.
In 1980, there were eighteen small shops.
By 1995, there were six.
In 2000, a mid-size Tesco opened at the foot of our town.
There are seven food newsagent outlets in the town - an increase of one SINCE Tesco opened.
Now, I'm not citing my town as typical, but Tesco, with its' Sunday opening, has not affected the small retail outlets, which get by.

In

[ProfessorDavey]

Interesting how a bunch of our Scottish based posters are indicating that extended opening hours, which have been available to shops in Scotland for years, haven't had any effect on smaller shops.

Yet we still have the likes of vlad and BA somehow putting up straw men about small shops and a 'national weekly holiday' when it is patently obvious that their objection is religiously motivated, as is apparent given vlad's refusal to countenance a 'national weekly holiday' on any other day of the week, which should be equally supported if your concerns are genuinely about small shops and working people, rather than religion.

[Anchorman]

Interesting how a bunch of our Scottish based posters are indicating that extended opening hours, which have been available to shops in Scotland for years, haven't had any effect on smaller shops.

Yet we still have the likes of vlad and BA somehow putting up straw men about small shops and a 'national weekly holiday' when it is patently obvious that their objection is religiously motivated, as is apparent given vlad's refusal to countenance a 'national weekly holiday' on any other day of the week, which should be equally supported if your concerns are genuinely about small shops and working people, rather than religion.

-
I'dd only add here that most Scottish Christians have no problems with the legislation re: Sunday trading as it stands.
Of course we reverence Sunday as the first day of the week - the day we believe Christ rose from the dead.
But the idea of imposing any restrictions regarding the Christian Sabbath on those who do not share our faith simply is a non-starter*



* - unless you live in the Western Isles.

I doubt whether BA or Vlad would countenance the "Wee Free" Sabbath.

[Udayana]

What kinds of arrangements did people have about weekly breaks or holidays pre-Christianity?

[Rhiannon]

I remember in Wales back in the late 70s my mum being refused a glass of wine in a restaurant because 'Gwynedd is dry on Sundays'.

I think the underlying reason why Christians feel such unease about the change in the Sunday trading laws is that it is further evidence that most of the country is happy to ignore what the church thinks, and that its influence is becoming ever more limited.

[ProfessorDavey]

Interesting how a bunch of our Scottish based posters are indicating that extended opening hours, which have been available to shops in Scotland for years, haven't had any effect on smaller shops.

Yet we still have the likes of vlad and BA somehow putting up straw men about small shops and a 'national weekly holiday' when it is patently obvious that their objection is religiously motivated, as is apparent given vlad's refusal to countenance a 'national weekly holiday' on any other day of the week, which should be equally supported if your concerns are genuinely about small shops and working people, rather than religion.

-
I'dd only add here that most Scottish Christians have no problems with the legislation re: Sunday trading as it stands.
Of course we reverence Sunday as the first day of the week - the day we believe Christ rose from the dead.
But the idea of imposing any restrictions regarding the Christian Sabbath on those who do not share our faith simply is a non-starter*



* - unless you live in the Western Isles.

I doubt whether BA or Vlad would countenance the "Wee Free" Sabbath.

I think that's right - I think for most people in Scotland the notion that larger shops can only open from 10-4 or 11-5 seems very odd and anachronistic. They are used to much a more civilised approach on Sundays and I'm sure end up rather bemused when south of the border when they try to pop into Tesco's at 9am or Homebase at 4pm and find them shut.

I don't think that even BA and vlad are arguing overtly for a wee free style Sunday, but that would be the actual consequence of their suggested 'national weekly holiday' (which is of course merely a smokescreen to try to pretend their view isn't religiously motivated) in which no-one should be working unless in essential/emergency services. So the following would not be possible on a Sunday because they aren't essential and require people to work to deliver them:

Any shops
All restaurants, cafes, pubs etc
Public transport (arguable perhaps justified because people in emergency jobs need to travel)
Museums
Theatre, cinemas, musics venues etc
The Wimbledon men's final
The test match (oh actually that's already over)
All other sporting events
Going to the swimming pool or gym
TV and Radio (is it really essential?)
etc, etc

Oh and of course ...

All church services as they require people to work on a Sunday 'national weekly holiday'.

So everyone would have a day off, but most people wouldn't be able to do any of the things they want to do.

Non-sense on stilts.

[ProfessorDavey]

I remember in Wales back in the late 70s my mum being refused a glass of wine in a restaurant because 'Gwynedd is dry on Sundays'.

I think the underlying reason why Christians feel such unease about the change in the Sunday trading laws is that it is further evidence that most of the country is happy to ignore what the church thinks, and that its influence is becoming ever more limited.

I went to University in Aberystwyth which was dry throughout the 1980s. Actually you could get a drink provided it was in a members club rather than a pub.

I don't think many Christians are actually that uneasy at all. Indeed I think there are plenty (almost certainly the majority) who have no problem with attending church, then off to the garden centre and maybe a spot of lunch in a local pub etc. And I'm sure plenty think the current trading laws are nonsense. So this isn't even a Christians vs the rest argument, but a peculiar bunch of fundamentalist Christians vs moderate Christians plus the rest argument.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Prof,

Oh! I'am a fundie now, wonder if TW has a badge, anyway I am willing to concede that the argument regarding is it good for the economy and will it affect small business, then yes it seems that it will not have a detrimental effect.

But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.

Gonnagle.

[Gordon]

I think for most people in Scotland the notion that larger shops can only open from 10-4 or 11-5 seems very odd and anachronistic. They are used to much a more civilised approach on Sundays and I'm sure end up rather bemused when south of the border when they try to pop into Tesco's at 9am or Homebase at 4pm and find them shut.

I just spent the last two weeks in Cornwall and I had to remember on both Sundays that the main supermarkets were on restricted hours if we wanted to use them.

Back home last evening, so went to Tesco at 8am this morning to get some essentials since the grandkids are here all day (their parents both working), and Mrs G will get the rest of what we need later this evening after they have gone - probably around 7pm-ish - and since the grandkids are often here over weekends she often shops on a Sunday evening this isn't unusual.

I can't see why some in E & W would see our shopping plans for today as being akin to the end of civilisation as we know it since it is just uneventful routine here; but is an option we have that is legally denied to you guys south of the border. 

[Rhiannon]

Dear Prof,

Oh! I'am a fundie now, wonder if TW has a badge, anyway I am willing to concede that the argument regarding is it good for the economy and will it affect small business, then yes it seems that it will not have a detrimental effect.

But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.

Gonnagle.

What you are arguing for is a rethink about consumerism full stop. Extending Sunday trading in England and Wales doesn't particularly impact that.

[Rhiannon]

I think for most people in Scotland the notion that larger shops can only open from 10-4 or 11-5 seems very odd and anachronistic. They are used to much a more civilised approach on Sundays and I'm sure end up rather bemused when south of the border when they try to pop into Tesco's at 9am or Homebase at 4pm and find them shut.

I just spent the last two weeks in Cornwall and I had to remember on both Sundays that the main supermarkets were on restricted hours if we wanted to use them.

Back home last evening, so went to Tesco at 8am this morning to get some essentials since the grandkids are here all day (their parents both working), and Mrs G will get the rest of what we need later this evening after they have gone - probably around 7pm-ish - and since the grandkids are often here over weekends she often shops on a Sunday evening this isn't unusual.

I can't see why some in E & W would see our shopping plans for today as being akin to the end of civilisation as we know it since it is just uneventful routine here; but is an option we have that is legally denied to you guys south of the border.

Yes, in the past the biggest impact this would have had for me would have been being able getting hold of Calpol in an emergency early rather than wait till ten - the one time I bought some from a convenience store (who only do the sachets which don't give accurate dosage btw) I discovered it had gone past its expirary date. Now the biggest difference is that I have to wait to get fresh produce, for a picnic for example - day-old baguette isn't nice - or compromise on what we have ie bread that is designed to keep rather than be eaten freshly baked. Gonners might say that is rampant consumerism but that doesn't give anyone the right to dictate what time on a Sunday I can be a rampant consumerist.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

A rethink, yes that is exactly what I am arguing for, less artics on the road, less food wastage, consumer and supermarket, less working hours, more time with family.

Gonnagle.

[jeremyp]

But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.

I think this encapsulates one of two ways of looking at things.

Either:

- everything is banned unless there is a reason why it should be allowed or

- everything is allowed unless there is a good reason why it should be banned.

You prefer the former, I prefer the latter. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Prof,

Oh! I'am a fundie now, wonder if TW has a badge, anyway I am willing to concede that the argument regarding is it good for the economy and will it affect small business, then yes it seems that it will not have a detrimental effect.

But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.

Gonnagle.

What you are arguing for is a rethink about consumerism full stop. Extending Sunday trading in England and Wales doesn't particularly impact that.

So the answer to getting less consumerism is........ a bit more consumerism.
That's like giving an alcoholic a hair of the dog or one for the road.