Extended Sunday opening hours

[Shaker]

You have no point. In all senses of the term.

Rose has. If there is no distinction of days it follows that you can be required to be available to work at anytime for however long. Mount a logical argument against that Shakers 1 and 2.

Why would I waste my time mounting a logical argument

Yep, why break a habit of a lifetime?

Quote mining, like every dishonest, sleazy little shitbag there has ever been since the Web was invented. Why am I not amazed?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I "get" that you can't actually think, or deal with the points I am making, but have to resort to straw men and stereotypes to deal with them.

Try sticking to the subject

I have done - consistently, throughout, just like Rhiannon, wigginhall and (especially) Professor Davey, all four of whom can think you into a cocked hat any day of any week.

Mere assertion, One of those has a ridiculously sentimental idea of ''willing workers'' and conjurs up a picture of people singing along to the sound of the tills ringing rather than it being mundane work at low wage, Another is using the straw man argument that we are trying to turn the clock back to when his mother was a girl .........and you, the guy who wants to keep Tuesday special AND keep no day special in a sort of schrodinger way.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I know why, I think it impacts on our traditional weekend and makes it less pleasant and for people who end up working in shops, it has a negative impact on family life.

As the law in England already has Sunday trading laws I think it is more up to those who want to change it, to defend their position with more than just them wanting it.

Sunday's have always been a bit different, with Sunday roasts and family having time to socialise together and share things.

Not everyone wants this, but I think it is a shame for those people who want to keep their Sunday's traditional.

Although people keep saying you still can, you can't if your work puts pressure on you to work as a normal day.

The problem is shops don't employ " just" those who want to work on a Sunday on a Sunday. It is cheaper for them to have a smaller " pool " of staff to draw from because it costs  companies to employ more people.

I think it is a shame for those who want a traditional family Sunday to have it destroyed because some people can't shop when the stores are open 24hrs 6 days a week.

The amendment to the times is just another erosion of our family "Sunday ".

My reasons aren't really religious, I just think we need one day that is a bit different to all the other days and are a break for everyone.

This is a fallacious argument from tradition pure and simple and, as such, has no merit.

Oh Mr atheist and the insistence that it should be any day but sunday because that would stick one on the Christians isn't fallacious.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

sleazy little shitbag

Do you mind?

[Shaker]

sleazy little shitbag

Do you mind?

Not in the slightest.

[Shaker]

Mere assertion, One of those has a ridiculously sentimental idea of ''willing workers'' and conjurs up a picture of people singing along to the sound of the tills ringing rather than it being mundane work at low wage, Another is using the straw man argument that we are trying to turn the clock back

Who would be so amazingly stupid as to say such a ridiculous thing?

not only do I want to keep the law how it is I'd want to turn the clock back on Sundays

Oh, it was you, on Saturday July 11th 2015 at 11:23:14am.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10566.msg537228#msg537228

http://goo.gl/h73sNo

[Walt Zingmatilder]

sleazy little shitbag

Shaker's lost his rag

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Mere assertion, One of those has a ridiculously sentimental idea of ''willing workers'' and conjurs up a picture of people singing along to the sound of the tills ringing rather than it being mundane work at low wage, Another is using the straw man argument that we are trying to turn the clock back

Who would be so amazingly stupid as to say such a ridiculous thing?

not only do I want to keep the law how it is I'd want to turn the clock back on Sundays

Oh, it was you, on Sunday July 11th 2015 at 11:23:14am.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10566.msg537228#msg537228

Quote mine.

and as You said:

Quote mining, like every dishonest, sleazy little shitbag there has ever been since the Web was invented. Why am I not amazed?
[/quote]

 In any case I mean the nineteen seventies, not the nineteen whenever his mother was a girl.

[Shaker]

I can provide the entire quote, Vlad old fruit. Here it is:

Yes, but you are pro the law, particularly when it ensures compliance from wayward religious.

To get your antitheistic, anti keep sunday special, anti, well, personnel, juices going.....not only do I want to keep the law how it is I'd want to turn the clock back on sundays........or to be fair have a referendum, but it would be more convenient to have sunday for national renewal.

You are a skimmer Shakes and a monomaniacal antitheist and I can't take your temporary conversion to unbridled capitalism, just because it sticks one on the theists, very seriously

I've even provided a screenshot of it 

It doesn't erase the fact that you said one thing on Saturday and have tried to say an entirely different thing on Monday. You've been fucking had, me old beauty, good and proper. Now suck it up and choke on it 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I can provide the entire quote, Vlad old fruit. Here it is:


It doesn't erase the fact that you said one thing on Saturday and have tried to say an entirely different thing on Monday. You've been fucking had, me old beauty, good and proper. Now suck it up and choke on it 

No, I merely said i'd turn the clock back........... but not as far as Wigginhall suggests I want to........sorry to piss on your bonfire.

[Shaker]

You've been caught out, old stick. Do yourself a favour and cough to it, because any further attempts to evade what everybody else can see is you being shown up for the mendacious little thrombosed haemorrhoid that you are will compund the felony.

We all know what you are, Vlad; now it's just a case of seeing what desperate barrel-bottom lengths you'll scrape to try to talk your way out of it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You've been caught out, old stick. Do yourself a favour and cough to it, because any further attempts to evade what everybody else can see is you being shown up for the mendacious little thrombosed haemorrhoid that you are will compund the felony.

We all know what you are, Vlad; now it's just a case of seeing what desperate barrel-bottom lengths you'll scrape to try to talk your way out of it.

You're just turd polishing now.
I've never retracted turning the clock back.
I never suggested that we should go back to the kind of sunday's experienced by Wigginhall's mother.

[Shaker]

You've been caught out, old stick. Do yourself a favour and cough to it, because any further attempts to evade what everybody else can see is you being shown up for the mendacious little thrombosed haemorrhoid that you are will compund the felony.

We all know what you are, Vlad; now it's just a case of seeing what desperate barrel-bottom lengths you'll scrape to try to talk your way out of it.

You're just turd polishing now.
I've never retracted turning the clock back.

No? What about at 10:23:02 this evening, i.e. thirty-four minutes ago?

Mere assertion, One of those has a ridiculously sentimental idea of ''willing workers'' and conjurs up a picture of people singing along to the sound of the tills ringing rather than it being mundane work at low wage, Another is using the straw man argument that we are trying to turn the clock back

If this is a straw man argument why did you say exactly this ("not only do I want to keep the law how it is I'd want to turn the clock back on Sundays") on Saturday July 11th 2015 at 11:23:14am?

*

I never suggested that we should go back to the kind of sunday's experienced by Wigginhall's mother.

Nothing to do with wiggy or Mrs Wiggy senior; this is about you being caught out saying one thing and saying its opposite a few days later and squealing because you don't like it. Shall I repost the said posts and screenshot again for everybody to see when they sign in again tomorrow? Or will you just grow a pair between your legs of the same thing that's between your ears and admit you've been well and truly done up like a kipper?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You've been caught out, old stick. Do yourself a favour and cough to it, because any further attempts to evade what everybody else can see is you being shown up for the mendacious little thrombosed haemorrhoid that you are will compund the felony.

We all know what you are, Vlad; now it's just a case of seeing what desperate barrel-bottom lengths you'll scrape to try to talk your way out of it.

You're just turd polishing now.
I've never retracted turning the clock back.

No? What about at 10:23:02 this evening, i.e. thirty-four minutes ago?

Mere assertion, One of those has a ridiculously sentimental idea of ''willing workers'' and conjurs up a picture of people singing along to the sound of the tills ringing rather than it being mundane work at low wage, Another is using the straw man argument that we are trying to turn the clock back

*

I never suggested that we should go back to the kind of sunday's experienced by Wigginhall's mother.

Nothing to do with wiggy or Mrs Wiggy senior; this is about you being caught out saying one thing and saying its opposite a few days later and squealing because you don't like it. Shall I repost the said posts and screenshot again for everybody to see when they sign in again tomorrow? Or will you just grow a pair between your legs of the same thing that's between your ears and admit you've been well and truly done up like a kipper?

Shaker....................... you are merely inviting people just to read what YOU have put rather than read the actual record.

In terms of ''screenshots'' I know you get a little excited when posting but isn't monitorial ejaculation just taking things a wee bit too far?

[Shaker]

Shaker....................... you are merely inviting people just to read what YOU have put rather than read the actual record.

I've provided the actual record, dim bulb, screen shots and all.

Still ... keep wriggling and writhing ... it's funny 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I "get" that you can't actually think, or deal with the points I am making, but have to resort to straw men and stereotypes to deal with them.

Try sticking to the subject

I have done - consistently, throughout, just like Rhiannon, wigginhall and (especially) Professor Davey, all four of whom can think you into a cocked hat any day of any week.

Mere assertion, One of those has a ridiculously sentimental idea of ''willing workers'' and conjurs up a picture of people singing along to the sound of the tills ringing rather than it being mundane work at low wage, Another is using the straw man argument that we are trying to turn the clock back to when his mother was a girl .........and you, the guy who wants to keep Tuesday special AND keep no day special in a sort of schrodinger way.

[BashfulAnthony]

It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.

Wrong - see my earlier post.

I have, and it changes nothing.  Get organised!!

I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.

If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping  -  it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!

Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.

Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.

So this week:

Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.

Get it.

I think we need to gat the violin out for you:  what a martyr  -  yes, I said, "martyr,"   

You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping.  Are you the only one in your house who works and shops?  Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it.  Yet you can't find a few hours to shop!  Pull the other one, Prof!!

[BeRational]

It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.

Wrong - see my earlier post.

I have, and it changes nothing.  Get organised!!

I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.

If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping  -  it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!

Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.

Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.

So this week:

Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.

Get it.

I think we need to gat the violin out for you:  what a martyr  -  yes, I said, "martyr,"   

You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping.  Are you the only one in your house who works and shops?  Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it.  Yet you can't find a few hours to shop!  Pull the other one, Prof!!

Are you retired or do you work?

I think all shops should be shut Monday to Friday from 9:00 till 17:00.

Then open from 17:01 to 08:59.

Would that bother you at all?

[BashfulAnthony]

It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.

Wrong - see my earlier post.

I have, and it changes nothing.  Get organised!!

I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.

If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping  -  it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!

Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.

Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.

So this week:

Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.

Get it.

I think we need to gat the violin out for you:  what a martyr  -  yes, I said, "martyr,"   

You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping.  Are you the only one in your house who works and shops?  Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it.  Yet you can't find a few hours to shop!  Pull the other one, Prof!!

Are you retired or do you work?

I think all shops should be shut Monday to Friday from 9:00 till 17:00.

Then open from 17:01 to 08:59.

Would that bother you at all?

You seem to have developed a penchant for particularly silly posts;  or maybe they've always been like that!   

[ProfessorDavey]

It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.

Wrong - see my earlier post.

I have, and it changes nothing.  Get organised!!

I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.

If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping  -  it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!

Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.

Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.

So this week:

Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.

Get it.

I think we need to gat the violin out for you:  what a martyr  -  yes, I said, "martyr,"   

You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping.  Are you the only one in your house who works and shops?  Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it.  Yet you can't find a few hours to shop!  Pull the other one, Prof!!

Not really - my life is pretty similar to many people I know - you know busy, busy working families.

57 days - no idea where you get that from - apparently (looking at the stats) I post on average about 3 posts a day. That sounds about right and each one takes, what 30 secs, and usually (as now posted) while on the move. Not much opportunity to shop (in a physical shop) while on a train. But plenty of opportunity to check out what's going on here and post a comment or two.

And back to the question that remains without cogent rebuttal. If a shop wants to open extended hours, there are people happy to work those hours and customers who would prefer to shop during those extended hours why on earth should that be prevented by law.

[ProfessorDavey]

It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.

Wrong - see my earlier post.

I have, and it changes nothing.  Get organised!!

I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.

If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping  -  it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!

Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.

Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.

So this week:

Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.

Get it.

I think we need to gat the violin out for you:  what a martyr  -  yes, I said, "martyr,"   

You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping.  Are you the only one in your house who works and shops?  Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it.  Yet you can't find a few hours to shop!  Pull the other one, Prof!!

Not really - my life is pretty similar to many people I know - you know busy, busy working families.

57 days - no idea where you get that from - apparently (looking at the stats) I post on average about 3 posts a day. That sounds about right and each one takes, what 30 secs, and usually (as now posted) while on the move. Not much opportunity to shop (in a physical shop) while on a train. But plenty of opportunity to check out what's going on here and post a comment or two.

And back to the question that remains without cogent rebuttal. If a shop wants to open extended hours, there are people happy to work those hours and customers who would prefer to shop during those extended hours why on earth should that be prevented by law.

just to note - BA averages over 10 posts per day, three times my output, despite his rather extended sabbaticals from this message board.

This is, of course a comment about quantity of posts, not, quality of posts

[Harrowby Hall]

Wow. Thirty pages of posts. Reading them all is a whole segment of my life which I shall never experience again. Was it worth it?

Well, one thing it did was to re-awaken memories of an introductory course to political philosophy at university nearly half a century ago. The concept being considered was freedom, and the thoughts of one of the greatest thinkers of the 20th century, Sir Isiah Berlin.

Berlin described two concepts of freedom:

The two concepts are:

'negative freedom', or freedom from interference, which Berlin derived from the British tradition,

and

'positive freedom', or freedom as self-mastery, which asks not what we are free from, but what we are free to do.

Berlin points out that these two different conceptions of liberty can clash with each other.

(Wikipedia article on Isiah Berlin)

It seems that this encapsulates this discussion (with the exception of the abuse which some posters appear to believe strengthens their case).

The arguments in favour of extended shopping hours were made at an early stage of the thread as were appropriate rebuttals. All that has happened since is the entrenchment of these positions with "debate" becoming more hostile and nasty. Having said that, my perception is that the bulk of the nastiness comes from those supporting the negative freedom elements of the argument.

[Rhiannon]

For me the self-mastery element is very important, not because I want unbridled shopping, but because of the well-being I get from positively choosing to spend my time in the wisest way possible - which isn't usually shopping. It's actually very good for us to be able to say, I could do this, but I choose not to, and not just on Sundays. Arguably there are some things that are so hazardous to do that the state does have to put prohibitions on them, but shopping isn't one of them.

(apologies to Gonners for rejoining debate but couldn't resist HH's interesting point)

[Sebastian Toe]

57 days - no idea where you get that from - .

It's from the stats page.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;area=statistics;u=120

What that shows I think, is how long you are logged on to the forum.
Not necessarily a direct correlation to actually 'using' the forum.
Especially if like myself you never bother logging off, so just get timed out.
 

[ProfessorDavey]

57 days - no idea where you get that from - .

It's from the stats page.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;area=statistics;u=120

What that shows I think, is how long you are logged on to the forum.
Not necessarily a direct correlation to actually 'using' the forum.
Especially if like myself you never bother logging off, so just get timed out.

Ok I see.

Yes I also am automatically logged in and never log out so that kind of makes sense. But of course bears no relation to the actual time I spend on the boards.

To note 2 minute down time with a coffee between some panel meetings this morning. Not really available time for shopping!