Deliver us from EVEL?

[wigginhall]

Some journos are speculating that a red-blooded EVEL, or an English parliament,  would speed up the break-up of the union, and lead to Scots independence.   Hallo, hallo, do I hear you say that the SNP tactic over fox-hunting might be calculated to wind up the Tories, so that they go for a more hard-line EVEL, thus leading to union-end, and Scotland-beginning?

Surely that would be very cynical?  Well, it is being circulated in the bars and dives of what used to be called Fleet Street.   We live in interesting times.  Machiavelli lives!

[Anchorman]

Some journos are speculating that a red-blooded EVEL, or an English parliament,  would speed up the break-up of the union, and lead to Scots independence.   Hallo, hallo, do I hear you say that the SNP tactic over fox-hunting might be calculated to wind up the Tories, so that they go for a more hard-line EVEL, thus leading to union-end, and Scotland-beginning?

Surely that would be very cynical?  Well, it is being circulated in the bars and dives of what used to be called Fleet Street.   We live in interesting times.  Machiavelli lives!

-
There was bound to be a confrontation sooner rather than later,Wiggs. Fox hunting wouldn't have been the one I'd have chosen, but, with tacticians like Angus Robertson or Stuart Hosie in charge of SNP at Westminster, it doesn't surprise me that they are causing a stooshie. After all, the Holyrood elections are next year, and SNP want to capitalise on our destruction of Labour up here, so need to keep the momentum going for a few months yet.
Besides, Labour, both north and south of the border, is leaderless, and SNP are providing a more robust opposition than what's left of Labour in Westminster.

[BashfulAnthony]

I suggest the amount needed would be enormous,

I suggest you have no more idea how much it would cost than I do.

We would still need to spend large amounts to monitor just who is coming in, bearing in mind the terrorist threat.

We are already paying those large amounts and it's made harder because so many people feel the need to sneak in.

Furthermore, I would suggest that the terrorist threat from people who are already citizens is higher than that from immigrants if past attacks are anything to go by.

I only "suggested" the amount might be enormous, and since you admit you don't know, it makes your whole point merely academic.

As to your second point about terrorists in the UK, again it is no more than a surmise, unless you have some evidence.

[jeremyp]

Unfortunately not.
It remains in the hands of paranoid xenophobes.

Given that the border between Scotland and the rest of the UK has no controls on it, immigration has to be a UK wide thing. 

[wigginhall]

Some journos are speculating that a red-blooded EVEL, or an English parliament,  would speed up the break-up of the union, and lead to Scots independence.   Hallo, hallo, do I hear you say that the SNP tactic over fox-hunting might be calculated to wind up the Tories, so that they go for a more hard-line EVEL, thus leading to union-end, and Scotland-beginning?

Surely that would be very cynical?  Well, it is being circulated in the bars and dives of what used to be called Fleet Street.   We live in interesting times.  Machiavelli lives!

-
There was bound to be a confrontation sooner rather than later,Wiggs. Fox hunting wouldn't have been the one I'd have chosen, but, with tacticians like Angus Robertson or Stuart Hosie in charge of SNP at Westminster, it doesn't surprise me that they are causing a stooshie. After all, the Holyrood elections are next year, and SNP want to capitalise on our destruction of Labour up here, so need to keep the momentum going for a few months yet.
Besides, Labour, both north and south of the border, is leaderless, and SNP are providing a more robust opposition than what's left of Labour in Westminster.

Yes, Jim, Labour are still sobbing under the duvet, and writing notes in their diary, 'why does nobody love me?'

There are so many factors in play now, it makes me dizzy.   The right wing Tories almost seem to be saying to Cameron, get rid of the Tartan horde; the SNP are retaliating against Cameron's apparently deliberate rebuffs, e.g. on the Scotland Bill, and possibly the fox-hunting debacle is laying down the gauntlet.    Cameron is in an odd position, as he would probably love to really insult the SNP, and bring in a hardline EVEL, but also, he doesn't want to go down as the PM who broke up the union.  Also, they are useful as a scapegoat.   May you live in interesting times!

[Anchorman]

Unfortunately not.
It remains in the hands of paranoid xenophobes.

Given that the border between Scotland and the rest of the UK has no controls on it, immigration has to be a UK wide thing.

-
Sorry - but the westminster inhuman treatment of asylum seekers is abhorrant.
Dungavel detention centre in Lanarkshire is a prime example.
It is outside Holyrood's remit - even though decent, right minded humanitarian politicians from SNP, Labour, the Lib Dems , greens and independents want our parliament to have oversight.
Guess which bunch of reactionaries don't?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/apr/21/religious-and-refugee-groups-denied-access-to-dungavel-immigration-centre

[Udayana]

Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.

[wigginhall]

Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.

Yes, while Labour have the traditional nervous breakdown after an election defeat, the SNP are doing the opposition thing.  It's difficult to know who is needling who really.   Some say the SNP want to needle Cameron into a tough EVEL, thus expediting the break-up of the union; and some say, that Cameron wants to needle the SNP.   Most journos favour the former, but I'm not sure.   The third option is that it's the normal cock-up by everybody.   SNAFU.

[Nearly Sane]

Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.

Yes, while Labour have the traditional nervous breakdown after an election defeat, the SNP are doing the opposition thing.  It's difficult to know who is needling who really.   Some say the SNP want to needle Cameron into a tough EVEL, thus expediting the break-up of the union; and some say, that Cameron wants to needle the SNP.   Most journos favour the former, but I'm not sure.   The third option is that it's the normal cock-up by everybody.   SNAFU.

Needling each other for the SNP and Tories here is in short term a win win for both. If they didn't their supporters would wonder why. There is a small downside for the SNP in this that if they get seen as merely playing political opposition for the sakeof it, it could have an effect on those who are voting for them as a sort of replacement for Scottish Labour without wanting independence (but even there some will like it if they are just ornery).

For the Tories, the only real downside is whether in the long term it does lead to the end of the Union and, there are a number who won't mind it. An EVEL solution which could be shown to be affecting the Scottish budget and/or legislation  in some ways as a knock on, which is the 'extreme form, would be a gift to the anyone wanting independence.

[Anchorman]

Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.

-


Hmmmmmm;
I wouldn't be very happy with that - assisted dying is a matter on which Holyrood has debated legislation thrice - and, regrettably, rejected it on all three occasions.
Whatever E&W decide on the matter has no impact on Scotland (unless there is cross-border traffic dependant on each nation's policy)

[Nearly Sane]

Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.

-


Hmmmmmm;
I wouldn't be very happy with that - assisted dying is a matter on which Holyrood has debated legislation thrice - and, regrettably, rejected it on all three occasions.
Whatever E&W decide on the matter has no impact on Scotland (unless there is cross-border traffic dependant on each nation's policy)

I think there is another problem - assisted dying will be I think a completely free vote - it won't be a govt bill.

[jeremyp]

Sorry - but the westminster inhuman treatment of asylum seekers is abhorrant.
Dungavel detention centre in Lanarkshire is a prime example.
It is outside Holyrood's remit - even though decent, right minded humanitarian politicians from SNP, Labour, the Lib Dems , greens and independents want our parliament to have oversight.
Guess which bunch of reactionaries don't?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/apr/21/religious-and-refugee-groups-denied-access-to-dungavel-immigration-centre

I wasn't speaking about the current government's immigration policy but about the principle of who runs the immigration policy.  As long as people can move freely across the border between England and Scotland, there has to be a nationwide (nation as in UK) immigration policy.

[Udayana]

Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.

-

Hmmmmmm;
I wouldn't be very happy with that - assisted dying is a matter on which Holyrood has debated legislation thrice - and, regrettably, rejected it on all three occasions.
Whatever E&W decide on the matter has no impact on Scotland (unless there is cross-border traffic dependant on each nation's policy)

I think there is another problem - assisted dying will be I think a completely free vote - it won't be a govt bill.

Rob Marris has a private members bill (taking up Falconers bid from the last parliament). Cameron is against it and the suggestion is that the SNP vote for it as a block - it would be a free vote if it gets enough time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33060795

[Nearly Sane]

Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.

-

Hmmmmmm;
I wouldn't be very happy with that - assisted dying is a matter on which Holyrood has debated legislation thrice - and, regrettably, rejected it on all three occasions.
Whatever E&W decide on the matter has no impact on Scotland (unless there is cross-border traffic dependant on each nation's policy)

I think there is another problem - assisted dying will be I think a completely free vote - it won't be a govt bill.

Rob Marris has a private members bill (taking up Falconers bid from the last parliament). Cameron is against it and the suggestion is that the SNP vote for it as a block - it would be a free vote if it gets enough time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33060795

But that's why I see it as a problem - it will be a free vote and a conscience one - it won't be an en bloc vote from the SNP for that reason, nor should it be.

[Nearly Sane]

And just to add to that - as Jim has noted it has been voted down in the Scottish Parliament, most recently this year, and that is a parliament where the SNP have a majority. The idea of voting en bloc on this won't fly.

[Anchorman]

Yep. Whatever the SNP are, they are not naive enough to vote for something in Westminster which a majority of their own MSPs voted against in a free vote in Holyrood.

[jakswan]

This won through in the commons I see, hurrah!

[Outrider]

Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.

What mess are we talking about?

That would be the 'mess' whereby the UK has achieved record low unemployment and a recovering economy I assume.

And growing inequality, rampant tax avoidance from the corporate world and lower median wages - unemployment's down, but so are living standards.

The mess we are talking about is the hodge-podge of partial federalisation that happened when some regions got an extra tier of government whilst others didn't: whether you think that Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and London should have gained devolved parliaments/assemblies or not, the fact that the English regions didn't at the same time means you have a blatant inequality.

O.

[Outrider]

Fair enough, or you could have said, oh right Gonnagle that mess which Cameron ignored until Farage starting giving him a headache.

I see it more as an opportunity than a problem.  I don't know how much money we spend each year trying to keep Johnny Foreigner out of our emerald isle set in a silver sea, but it doesn't seem very effective and everything might be better if we spent that money on making sure they settle in here properly.

I suggest the amount needed would be enormous, and far out-reach what we may now be shelling out.  We would still need to spend large amounts to monitor just who is coming in, bearing in mind the terrorist threat.

More effective still to invest the money in the places these people are coming from to make them want to stay their in the first place.

O.

[Hope]

The mess we are talking about is the hodge-podge of partial federalisation that happened when some regions got an extra tier of government whilst others didn't: whether you think that Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and London should have gained devolved parliaments/assemblies or not, the fact that the English regions didn't at the same time means you have a blatant inequality.

O.

Yet several areas of England were offered chances to have a form of English devolution and turned it down in referenda.

[Hope]

More effective still to invest the money in the places these people are coming from to make them want to stay their in the first place.

O.

Which, of course, the UK has been doing ever since the Syrian situation started and before.

[Outrider]

More effective still to invest the money in the places these people are coming from to make them want to stay their in the first place.

O.

Which, of course, the UK has been doing ever since the Syrian situation started and before.

It has, absolutely, far more than anyone else, so far as I can see.

O.

[Hope]

It has, absolutely, far more than anyone else, so far as I can see.

O.

And it has been this that has got me somewhat annoyed with all the accusations that this government (and the last, if not the last 2) hasn't been pulling its weight in regard to the Syrian refugee crisis - especially when that has come from our European colleagues.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I can't believe a government has painted itself into so many corners in as little time.........EVEL,Tax credit cuts, voter registration.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

How can you talk about the house of Lords not honouring tradition while in the same breath diminish the status of Non English MP's?

I think the narrative of ''do anything...they won't complain'' is unravelling a bit.