Faith!

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Faith can be blind faith...based entirely on what someone says or what is written in some book.  Faith can also be real ...based on an intuitive recognition of a subtle pattern or a hidden force working in ones life.

Not everyone is capable of the second variety because it requires significant direct experience in such matters. It depends on ones experiences, age, exposure, perception, sensitivity and so on.   

Most people tend to trust the experiences of the second set of people.... their intuition, their understanding and their interpretation. This leads to blind faith...which  in many cases, is built on the second variety.  So...indirectly, blind faith it is also a recognition of some underlying pattern in life....(though based on someone else's experience). 

Real Faith could be the subtle understanding that our subconscious/unconscious is awake and kicking at all times and largely takes care of most, if not all, decisions in our lives.

Faith is a way of letting go the illusion of conscious decision making and allowing the large and powerful  subconscious/unconscious to take over. Its a way of abandoning the illusion of conscious control. In that sense its more in tune with reality than holding on to the notion of conscious effort.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

Sriram

 

[Leonard James]

Sriram, I have to admire the dogged persistence with which you plug away at the existence of something 'other'. You seem to have a stronger than usual need for it to exist. Why is that, do you think?

(That's a genuine question ... I have no idea of why it might be)

[Sriram]

Sriram, I have to admire the dogged persistence with which you plug away at the existence of something 'other'. You seem to have a stronger than usual need for it to exist. Why is that, do you think?

(That's a genuine question ... I have no idea of why it might be)

Just go through the subconscious/unconscious thread.

[Leonard James]

Sriram, I have to admire the dogged persistence with which you plug away at the existence of something 'other'. You seem to have a stronger than usual need for it to exist. Why is that, do you think?

(That's a genuine question ... I have no idea of why it might be)

Just go through the subconscious/unconscious thread.

I can still see no reason in that thread as to WHY you have such a strong need to pursue it.

[Sriram]

Sriram, I have to admire the dogged persistence with which you plug away at the existence of something 'other'. You seem to have a stronger than usual need for it to exist. Why is that, do you think?

(That's a genuine question ... I have no idea of why it might be)

Just go through the subconscious/unconscious thread.

I can still see no reason in that thread as to WHY you have such a strong need to pursue it.

Rather...you should tell me why in spite of new knowledge, you have this need to ignore the subconscious/unconscious and treat it as a mere appendage.

[Leonard James]

Rather...you should tell me why in spite of new knowledge, you have this need to ignore the subconscious/unconscious and treat it as a mere appendage.

I don't "ignore" it, but like all specialised knowledge, it has little or no impact on our day to day life.

However, I admit that you are not alone in your persistence, so I suppose it is just a matter of individual interest.

[Sriram]

Rather...you should tell me why in spite of new knowledge, you have this need to ignore the subconscious/unconscious and treat it as a mere appendage.

I don't "ignore" it, but like all specialised knowledge, it has little or no impact on our day to day life.

However, I admit that you are not alone in your persistence, so I suppose it is just a matter of individual interest.

What do you mean..'it has little or no impact on our day to day life'..?!  Clearly you have not yet taken in what the subconscious/unconscious really is!

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110826192433.htm  Pursuing your goals..let the unconscious be your guide

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120910152011.htm  Placebo response occurs at the unconscious level

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081224215542.htm  Best decisions are made at the unconscious level

[torridon]

I think you are defining 'faith' as a case of letting instinct and intuition be your guide. Maybe that fails to capture some of what is meant by 'building a faith'.

[Sriram]

I think you are defining 'faith' as a case of letting instinct and intuition be your guide. Maybe that fails to capture some of what is meant by 'building a faith'.

Its the same thing. Our emotions.... imagination....and our sense of individuality (ego) that attaches itself to them....make the process much more complex and elaborate.

[Leonard James]

What do you mean..'it has little or no impact on our day to day life'..?!  Clearly you have not yet taken in what the subconscious/unconscious really is!

Of course I have! But I am also perfectly aware that our subconscious will continue to decide how we behave whether we take interest in its machinations or not. We cannot control our sub-conscious, by definition!

[torridon]

I think you are defining 'faith' as a case of letting instinct and intuition be your guide. Maybe that fails to capture some of what is meant by 'building a faith'.

Its the same thing. Our emotions.... imagination....and our sense of individuality (ego) that attaches itself to them....make the process much more complex and elaborate.

When people speak of 'building a faith', it is going further than listening to one's inner instincts, it is usually about joining in with a wider community of like minded people and strengthening a nascent sense of commitment through fellowship.  That doesn't necessarily translate well as 'blind faith', that would be the literalist fringe of a faith group.  But 'building a faith', to me, is ultimately about the elevation of confirmation bias into a virtue. By strengthening our commitment through fellowship we systematically distance ourselves even further from people whose experience of life is not similar to ours.  It is good to be able to listen to your inner voice, but we shouldn't assume that what is valid for us, is also valid for everyone else.

[Rhiannon]

I think this illustrates the difference between East and West in matters of 'faith'. In the West having a faith (note the 'a') generally means adhering to a clearly defined set of ideas, dogmas and rules that come from a particular religion, and believing in them accordingly. You wont find many pagans saying that they have 'faith' in that sense. What Sriram is describing is much more akin to books I've read by eastern-influenced spiritual writers, which is more like a surrendering to the process of life and trusting that you will be guided to 'see' clearly, make decisions accordingly and receive what is necessary. That doesn't necessarily even require a deity at all, just a trust - faith - in oneself.

[Udayana]

I have faith in scepticism.

[Leonard James]

I suggest that faith in anything is quite superfluous. The universe and the life in it will continue its merry course to wherever it's going quite independently of our faith.

We can only try to live our life as best suits us and the environment, live it to the full within the confines of not harming anybody or anything else if we can avoid it.

[Udayana]

..The universe and the life in it will continue its merry course to wherever it's going quite independently of our faith...

This itself not something that can be confirmed, but is an understanding of yourself in relationship to the universe .. that probably falls in the category that Sriram has labelled "real faith".

[Leonard James]

..The universe and the life in it will continue its merry course to wherever it's going quite independently of our faith...

This itself not something that can be confirmed, but is an understanding of yourself in relationship to the universe .. that probably falls in the category that Sriram has labelled "real faith".

I don't think it needs confirming, it is a self-evident fact. How can our faith or lack of it influence what happens to the universe?

[Rhiannon]

..The universe and the life in it will continue its merry course to wherever it's going quite independently of our faith...

This itself not something that can be confirmed, but is an understanding of yourself in relationship to the universe .. that probably falls in the category that Sriram has labelled "real faith".

I don't think it needs confirming, it is a self-evident fact. How can our faith or lack of it influence what happens to the universe?

Can you demonstrate that the 'universe continues'? What does that even mean? How do you know that your concept of continuation isn't illusory?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Antitheism persist defines faith as belief against any evidence. That is linguistic totalitarianism of the Orwellian variety.
Christians define faith as trust in an experienced God.
Antitheism then persists in shoehorning that experience into their philosophical naturalism.

[Leonard James]

..The universe and the life in it will continue its merry course to wherever it's going quite independently of our faith...

This itself not something that can be confirmed, but is an understanding of yourself in relationship to the universe .. that probably falls in the category that Sriram has labelled "real faith".

I don't think it needs confirming, it is a self-evident fact. How can our faith or lack of it influence what happens to the universe?

Can you demonstrate that the 'universe continues'? What does that even mean? How do you know that your concept of continuation isn't illusory?

Are you serious? By `continue` I mean go on the course it has been following since it began.

Are you suggesting that everything I see round me is an illusion? 

[floo]

Christians define faith as trust in an experienced God.

Experienced is what, exactly? Enjoying human suffering?

[Rhiannon]

..The universe and the life in it will continue its merry course to wherever it's going quite independently of our faith...

This itself not something that can be confirmed, but is an understanding of yourself in relationship to the universe .. that probably falls in the category that Sriram has labelled "real faith".

I don't think it needs confirming, it is a self-evident fact. How can our faith or lack of it influence what happens to the universe?

Can you demonstrate that the 'universe continues'? What does that even mean? How do you know that your concept of continuation isn't illusory?

Are you serious? By `continue` I mean go on the course it has been following since it began.

Are you suggesting that everything I see round me is an illusion? 

Probably. Your perception of the universe is very much reliant on your subjective view and your faith that things are as you see them. It's just a story. Whether there is such a thing as reality I don't know, but each of us exists in a reality that is different from another's, based on how we experience things and judge things to be, although in order to function we put together a series of basic judgements that we generally have in common (this is a tree, this is a chair, this is the sky etc).

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Christians define faith as trust in an experienced God.

Experienced is what, exactly? Enjoying human suffering?

Christianity put charity on the map.

[Leonard James]

Probably. Your perception of the universe is very much reliant on your subjective view and your faith that things are as you see them. It's just a story. Whether there is such a thing as reality I don't know, but each of us exists in a reality that is different from another's, based on how we experience things and judge things to be, although in order to function we put together a series of basic judgements that we generally have in common (this is a tree, this is a chair, this is the sky etc).

 

I am with you in that we each have our own perception of ourselves, other people and things, (the latter, on the whole, are the same), but to suggest that the whole of the universe and life may be just an illusion is, to me, quite ridiculous.

[Sriram]

I think you are defining 'faith' as a case of letting instinct and intuition be your guide. Maybe that fails to capture some of what is meant by 'building a faith'.

Its the same thing. Our emotions.... imagination....and our sense of individuality (ego) that attaches itself to them....make the process much more complex and elaborate.

When people speak of 'building a faith', it is going further than listening to one's inner instincts, it is usually about joining in with a wider community of like minded people and strengthening a nascent sense of commitment through fellowship.  That doesn't necessarily translate well as 'blind faith', that would be the literalist fringe of a faith group.  But 'building a faith', to me, is ultimately about the elevation of confirmation bias into a virtue. By strengthening our commitment through fellowship we systematically distance ourselves even further from people whose experience of life is not similar to ours.  It is good to be able to listen to your inner voice, but we shouldn't assume that what is valid for us, is also valid for everyone else.

People like Jesus and Moses (in my view) develop an understanding of their inner consciousness in what I have mentioned as the real faith.  When they arrive at an understanding of the subtle patterns and processes....they also teach people based on this understanding....but in a manner to suit the culture and understanding of the people.  This is what all sages and yogis in India  (including Mahavira and Buddha) have done.

Ordinary people accept these teachings as valid purely on 'blind' faith and also tend to associate these teachings with the lifestyle, social norms and other teachings of that person.  Instinctively the people try to teach others about these teachings.... since we all are programmed to propagate whatever beliefs we hold. This is how the basic understanding of the original teacher slowly becomes a 'religious faith' and a dogma.

These extended teachings and dogma could be different in different cultures...but the original understanding of the different teachers cannot be different....though interpretations could be different. The understanding is bound to be the same for such original teachers (sages) because it is based on an understanding of real phenomena....somewhat like different scientists in different countries.

[Sriram]

What do you mean..'it has little or no impact on our day to day life'..?!  Clearly you have not yet taken in what the subconscious/unconscious really is!

Of course I have! But I am also perfectly aware that our subconscious will continue to decide how we behave whether we take interest in its machinations or not. We cannot control our sub-conscious, by definition!

Correct!  Wow! You sound just like a devout theist.   

As you say, we cannot control our subconscious.... but the subconscious decides and controls most aspects of our life. So...surrendering to its will makes sense...doesn't it?!  That is what the faithful do.

Get rid of the illusion of control and you will be happy and also go with the flow.