Faith!

[Leonard James]

Correct!  Wow! You sound just like a devout theist.   

Oh my gawd, you must have misunderstood me then. I meant to say that although we can't control our subconscious mind, it is still  our own mind, and the decisions it makes are our own.

As you say, we cannot control our subconscious.... but the subconscious decides and controls most aspects of our life. So...surrendering to its will makes sense...doesn't it?!  That is what the faithful do.

No they don't! They surrender to the will of an entity invented by somebody else.

Get rid of the illusion of control and you will be happy and also go with the flow.

Never! I will continue to make my own decisions, whether they be subconscious or conscious.

[Sriram]

Correct!  Wow! You sound just like a devout theist.   

Oh my gawd, you must have misunderstood me then. I meant to say that although we can't control our subconscious mind, it is still  our own mind, and the decisions it makes are our own.

As you say, we cannot control our subconscious.... but the subconscious decides and controls most aspects of our life. So...surrendering to its will makes sense...doesn't it?!  That is what the faithful do.

No they don't! They surrender to the will of an entity invented by somebody else.

Get rid of the illusion of control and you will be happy and also go with the flow.

Never! I will continue to make my own decisions, whether they be subconscious or conscious.

You have not got my point. If you have no control over what the subconscious thinks or does...what do you mean that its decisions are 'our own'?!   

People may accept the teachings of some teachers on blind faith. I agree and that is what I have said in my OP. They may also anthropomorphize (?) these forces as we human usually do. That does not mean they are talking about something different from the natural subconscious forces.

I am of course not for a moment imagining that we actually understand these forces to any  significant degree....its all only about acknowledging them.

[Sriram]

I think this illustrates the difference between East and West in matters of 'faith'. In the West having a faith (note the 'a') generally means adhering to a clearly defined set of ideas, dogmas and rules that come from a particular religion, and believing in them accordingly. You wont find many pagans saying that they have 'faith' in that sense. What Sriram is describing is much more akin to books I've read by eastern-influenced spiritual writers, which is more like a surrendering to the process of life and trusting that you will be guided to 'see' clearly, make decisions accordingly and receive what is necessary. That doesn't necessarily even require a deity at all, just a trust - faith - in oneself.

The defined set of ideas and dogma of any group of people arise from the culture and teachings of the original teacher (like Jesus or Moses). These get propagated as rigid ideas over a period of time...and could even get distorted over time. But they are originally based on real experiences of natural forces that exist in all of us.

[Leonard James]

You have not got my point. If you have no control over what the subconscious thinks or does...what do you mean that its decisions are 'our own'?!   

I mean that decisions are taken by our own subconscious brain. If you are trying to suggest that because it's subconscious it may be under some external control, how do you explain that it always seems to agree with my conscious brain?

People may accept the teachings of some teachers on blind faith. I agree and that is what I have said in my OP. They may also anthropomorphize (?) these forces as we human usually do. That does not mean they are talking about something different from the natural subconscious forces.

I see no evidence for "natural subconscious forces".

I am of course not for a moment imagining that we actually understand these forces to any  significant degree....its all only about acknowledging them.

Show me the evidence for them and if I find it convincing I will acknowledge their existence.

[torridon]

I think this illustrates the difference between East and West in matters of 'faith'. In the West having a faith (note the 'a') generally means adhering to a clearly defined set of ideas, dogmas and rules that come from a particular religion, and believing in them accordingly. You wont find many pagans saying that they have 'faith' in that sense. What Sriram is describing is much more akin to books I've read by eastern-influenced spiritual writers, which is more like a surrendering to the process of life and trusting that you will be guided to 'see' clearly, make decisions accordingly and receive what is necessary. That doesn't necessarily even require a deity at all, just a trust - faith - in oneself.

The defined set of ideas and dogma of any group of people arise from the culture and teachings of the original teacher (like Jesus or Moses). These get propagated as rigid ideas over a period of time...and could even get distorted over time. But they are originally based on real experiences of natural forces that exist in all of us.

Of course we cannot verify the nature of the experience of long dead people.  It has been noted for instance that the conversion of St Paul is consistent with the symptomology of epilepsy, which often involves intense religious hallucinations. That would be another thread of course, but it should caution us against putting too much faith in the claims and resulting teachings of individuals, especially long dead ones.

[Rhiannon]

Probably. Your perception of the universe is very much reliant on your subjective view and your faith that things are as you see them. It's just a story. Whether there is such a thing as reality I don't know, but each of us exists in a reality that is different from another's, based on how we experience things and judge things to be, although in order to function we put together a series of basic judgements that we generally have in common (this is a tree, this is a chair, this is the sky etc).

 

I am with you in that we each have our own perception of ourselves, other people and things, (the latter, on the whole, are the same), but to suggest that the whole of the universe and life may be just an illusion is, to me, quite ridiculous.

Laugh all you like, Len. This isn't woo, it's physics.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/physicists-discover-clearest-evidence-yet-that-the-universe-is-a-hologram-9000748.html

[Leonard James]

Laugh all you like, Len. This isn't woo, it's physics.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/physicists-discover-clearest-evidence-yet-that-the-universe-is-a-hologram-9000748.html

I'm not pretending to understand any of that scientific stuff, but I can't see how it suggests that everything is a delusion ... it just seems to be saying that we don't see it as we think we do.

But surely that is completely unimportant ... we can only operate according to the way things seem to us, whether it's correct or not.

[Rhiannon]

Laugh all you like, Len. This isn't woo, it's physics.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/physicists-discover-clearest-evidence-yet-that-the-universe-is-a-hologram-9000748.html

I'm not pretending to understand any of that scientific stuff, but I can't see how it suggests that everything is a delusion ... it just seems to be saying that we don't see it as we think we do.

But surely that is completely unimportant ... we can only operate according to the way things seem to us, whether it's correct or not.

That is exactly it, Len. There is a difference between delusion and illusion and it seems that our understanding of our world is illusory. We can only operate as though everything is how it appears but we cannot demonstrate that everything is as it seems, and that includes your ideas about the universe 'continuing'.

[Leonard James]

That is exactly it, Len. There is a difference between delusion and illusion and it seems that our understanding of our world is illusory. We can only operate as though everything is how it appears but we cannot demonstrate that everything is as it seems, and that includes your ideas about the universe 'continuing'.

Why? I saw nothing in that article to suggest that the universe won't continue in it's course.

[Hope]

The defined set of ideas and dogma of any group of people arise from the culture and teachings of the original teacher (like Jesus or Moses). These get propagated as rigid ideas over a period of time...and could even get distorted over time. But they are originally based on real experiences of natural forces that exist in all of us.

The problem with this is that in Jesus' case, a lot of the 'defined set of ideas and dogma' did not arise from the culture in which Jesus grew up.  In fact they didn't come from any culture before him.

[Hope]

Of course we cannot verify the nature of the experience of long dead people.  It has been noted for instance that the conversion of St Paul is consistent with the symptomology of epilepsy, which often involves intense religious hallucinations. That would be another thread of course, but it should caution us against putting too much faith in the claims and resulting teachings of individuals, especially long dead ones.

The danger with this kind of critique is that we feel that we can't learn from history; not merely ancient history but even recent history.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Of course we cannot verify the nature of the experience of long dead people.  It has been noted for instance that the conversion of St Paul is consistent with the symptomology of epilepsy, which often involves intense religious hallucinations. That would be another thread of course, but it should caution us against putting too much faith in the claims and resulting teachings of individuals, especially long dead ones.

The danger with this kind of critique is that we feel that we can't learn from history; not merely ancient history but even recent history.

Can you name an intense religious hallucination.(please don't say St Pauls conversion).

[BashfulAnthony]

Of course we cannot verify the nature of the experience of long dead people.  It has been noted for instance that the conversion of St Paul is consistent with the symptomology of epilepsy, which often involves intense religious hallucinations. That would be another thread of course, but it should caution us against putting too much faith in the claims and resulting teachings of individuals, especially long dead ones.

The danger with this kind of critique is that we feel that we can't learn from history; not merely ancient history but even recent history.

Can you name an intense religious hallucination.(please don't say St Pauls conversion).

Wnot?   There was St.Francis.  There are plenty if you care to research.

[Shaker]

People with temporal lobe epilepsy have them all the time. People who've ingested LSD and DMT likewise.

[BashfulAnthony]

People with temporal lobe epilepsy have them all the time. People who've ingested LSD and DMT likewise.

Yes, maybe in your world, though I doubt Bernardone, for one, had access to the dealers!!

[Shaker]

He wouldn't have needed it - DMT is naturally produced in the human body.

[BashfulAnthony]

He wouldn't have needed it - DMT is naturally produced in the human body.

And how would you know to whom it applies?

[Shaker]

And how would you know to whom it applies?

By reportage of the content of the hallucinations. DMT in particular is notable for giving rise to hallucinations of hard to describe or define beings - humanoid beings - perceived to be otherworldly. Which could, depending on your prior worldview/belief system, be interpreted as angels, etc.

[BashfulAnthony]

And how would you know to whom it applies?

By reportage of the content of the hallucinations. DMT in particular is notable for giving rise to hallucinations of hard to describe or define beings - humanoid beings - perceived to be otherworldly.

And just how many" contents" are ever studied, out of the entire population  -  of the world!!

[Shaker]

Quite a lot. It's fascinating stuff, you should read up on it. Try Terrence McKenna especially.

[BashfulAnthony]

Quite a lot. It's fascinating stuff, you should read up on it. Try Terrence McKenna especially.

And how would he know about the likes of Bernardone, or anyone who lived centuries ago?

[OH MY WORLD!]

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."   Hebrews 1:1

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."   Romans 10:17

Faith  "ground or confidence"

"Faith is simply the channel through which God's grace to us is received."   Billy Graham

[Shaker]

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."   Hebrews 1:1

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."   Romans 10:17

Faith  "ground or confidence"

"Faith is simply the channel through which God's grace to us is received."   Billy Graham

The same circular, question-begging non-arguments as usual, then.

[Rhiannon]

That is exactly it, Len. There is a difference between delusion and illusion and it seems that our understanding of our world is illusory. We can only operate as though everything is how it appears but we cannot demonstrate that everything is as it seems, and that includes your ideas about the universe 'continuing'.

Why? I saw nothing in that article to suggest that the universe won't continue in it's course.

The article addresses the belief that what you think you see around you is what it appears to be. The article does not address the issue of time. What does 'run its course' mean?

You have faith that 'run its course' has meaning - that there is even a course for the universe to run. It's just a concept.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That is exactly it, Len. There is a difference between delusion and illusion and it seems that our understanding of our world is illusory. We can only operate as though everything is how it appears but we cannot demonstrate that everything is as it seems, and that includes your ideas about the universe 'continuing'.

Why? I saw nothing in that article to suggest that the universe won't continue in it's course.

The article addresses the belief that what you think you see around you is what it appears to be. The article does not address the issue of time. What does 'run its course' mean?

You have faith that 'run its course' has meaning - that there is even a course for the universe to run. It's just a concept.

Well put.

There is also no way of knowing whether the universe needs to be maintained or indeed is at an equilibrium...if not the universe could ''collapse'' or whether a new universe could suddenly appear within the same space as this one.