Faith!

[Leonard James]

The article addresses the belief that what you think you see around you is what it appears to be. The article does not address the issue of time. What does 'run its course' mean?

You have faith that 'run its course' has meaning - that there is even a course for the universe to run. It's just a concept.

In the same way as we look forward to tomorrow, and what we plan to do. What do you suggest, that there is no point? It's just a concept?

I'm sorry, Rhi, but none of that makes any sense to me.

[Hope]

Can you name an intense religious hallucination.(please don't say St Pauls conversion).

Is this aimed at me or torridon?

[Hope]

And how would you know to whom it applies?

By reportage of the content of the hallucinations. DMT in particular is notable for giving rise to hallucinations of hard to describe or define beings - humanoid beings - perceived to be otherworldly. Which could, depending on your prior worldview/belief system, be interpreted as angels, etc.

So, if one is a atheist, drug-craving or not, how might those interpretations be triggered? 

[Hope]

The same circular, question-begging non-arguments as usual, then.

You'e clearly a very good virtual teacher, Shaker.   

[Shaker]

The same circular, question-begging non-arguments as usual, then.

You'e clearly a very good virtual teacher, Shaker.   

I wouldn't think so - I've been trying to tell you for weeks on end that the negative proof fallacy/argument from/appeal to ignorance is something you shouldn't be employing, yet you still consistently do it.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Christian faith is not what Rhi or Sriram suggest it is. What don't you get about that Shaker? The Bible is clear on what Christian faith is. How can one argue about what Christian faith is when the Bible is clear? So yes, there is no argument about what Christian faith is except by those that are clueless, yourself being the best example of that.

"I prayed for faith and thought that some day faith would come down and strike me like lightning. But faith did not seem to come. One day I read in the tenth chapter of Romans, "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"
I had up to this time closed my Bible and prayed for faith. I now opened my Bible and began to study, and faith has been growing ever since."   DL Moody

[OH MY WORLD!]

"I've been trying to tell you for weeks on end..."
Obviously we have a very low regard for what you try and tell us Shaker. And if you were smart you would also have a low regard for what you have to tell others.

[Shaker]

Some people are simply incapable of rational thought - sad, but there it is.

[BashfulAnthony]

Some people are simply incapable of rational thought - sad, but there it is.

Yes, but keep trying; it might come to you one day.   

[Rhiannon]

The article addresses the belief that what you think you see around you is what it appears to be. The article does not address the issue of time. What does 'run its course' mean?

You have faith that 'run its course' has meaning - that there is even a course for the universe to run. It's just a concept.

In the same way as we look forward to tomorrow, and what we plan to do. What do you suggest, that there is no point? It's just a concept?

I'm sorry, Rhi, but none of that makes any sense to me.

No, of course there is a point. But physicists dispute whether time exists, or if it dies exist whether it bears any resemblance to how we perceive it.

And aside from the issue of whether there is time, why does the universe have to have a 'course'? What is that? These are all concepts that are useful in making sense of our existence but there's no certainty this is 'reality'.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Yes Shaker and your posts are the leading example of incapable. There it is!

[Hope]

Some people are simply incapable of rational thought - sad, but there it is.

And of course that affliction can and does impact on thousands of people, both those with no faith and those with faith.  As such, I'm not sure it has any relevance to this issue.

[Udayana]

...
I'm not pretending to understand any of that scientific stuff, but I can't see how it suggests that everything is a delusion ... it just seems to be saying that we don't see it as we think we do.

But surely that is completely unimportant ... we can only operate according to the way things seem to us, whether it's correct or not.

Well, quite, but that demonstrates "faith" doesn't it? The way things seem to you and what sense you make of them, what you take as "self evident", depends on what processing you already have in place to pick through and organise them.

[torridon]

Of course we cannot verify the nature of the experience of long dead people.  It has been noted for instance that the conversion of St Paul is consistent with the symptomology of epilepsy, which often involves intense religious hallucinations. That would be another thread of course, but it should caution us against putting too much faith in the claims and resulting teachings of individuals, especially long dead ones.

The danger with this kind of critique is that we feel that we can't learn from history; not merely ancient history but even recent history.

I can see that, although as a rule of thumb we need to apply a more sceptical attitude to documents from ancient times. As an example of the banality of taking ancient writings at face value, Adolf Hitler naively took seriously the accounts of Tacitus regarding the Aryans and this fed his obsession with germanic supremacy leading to the horrors of WWII.  Yet modern scholars now regard these histories as fiction, Tacitus was essentially writing fiction, or at most generous, second hand or third hand accounts presented up as eye witness testimony.

[Leonard James]

Well, quite, but that demonstrates "faith" doesn't it? The way things seem to you and what sense you make of them, what you take as "self evident", depends on what processing you already have in place to pick through and organise them.

Well, the 'faith' as you call it is simply acting the way that seems most appropriate to me. I don't follow somebody else's dictates.

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

The point I am making is quite simple.

1. We know from scientific investigations that the unconscious (or subconscious...I am not splitting hairs here) is very much present in all humans (likely also in animals of course).

2. The unconscious is considered as much larger and much more powerful than the conscious mind. 

3. However, our sense of self and self-awareness is linked only to the conscious mind. We are normally completely unaware of the unconscious.

4. We have no idea what the unconscious is or how it functions. We are not likely to know with any degree of accuracy.

5. Earlier, the unconscious was only thought of as a memory bank where repressed memories and detailed memories of events that the conscious mind is unaware of ....were stored. In other words, it was thought of only as  an extension of the conscious mind. As an appendage or assistant. 

6. In recent times we have seen that the unconscious mind is the real decision maker rather than the conscious mind. It also has a key role in the placebo effect and thereby affects our health in many ways. (check the references I have given in reply no 6 above).  It is always awake as we have seen in cases of somnambulism.

7. The unconscious mind could have several layers with memory being only one level. Creative aspects, protective aspects, decision making, forecasting, environmental awareness, link with the eco-system and its processes, enabling evolutionary adaptations....and many other functions could also be a part of the unconscious mind. Jung talked of a collective unconscious. It could be much bigger than we can even imagine today.

8. Now coming to the controversial bit....from ancient times people have known that we have inside ourselves a wise, knowledgeable, observant, powerful, intelligent 'mind' which controls and guides our lives. We have called it by different names...such as spirit, soul, atma, Higher Self and so on.  All these could refer to what we today call the unconscious.

9. When people have faith in an all powerful being...what really are they doing?  Faith is an awareness of the unconscious....its power and its workings... as also the relative helplessness of the conscious mind. Not having a clear idea of what it is or how it works...but being subject to its authority and decisions.....makes the situation complex....calling for faith rather than knowledge.  Real Faith, in other words, is an acknowledgement of the unconscious mind and its authority.

10. Of course, everyone cannot have the same level of awareness of the unconscious as some people can have.  Only a small minority will be capable of this direct awareness of the unconscious on a day to day basis. The more the conscious mind is disciplined the more the awareness of the unconscious.

11. For the vast majority... accepting the teachings of the minority would be enough.  The minority who teach the majority such matters would obviously base it on the local culture, legends, myths, social norms, emotions and the intellectual level of the people. 

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

Sriram
 

 

[Leonard James]

 

Now coming to the controversial bit....from ancient times people have known that we have inside ourselves a wise, knowledgeable, observant, powerful, intelligent 'mind' which controls and guides our lives.

They haven't known anything of the kind, they simply dreamed it up.

[Leonard James]

The article addresses the belief that what you think you see around you is what it appears to be. The article does not address the issue of time. What does 'run its course' mean?

You have faith that 'run its course' has meaning - that there is even a course for the universe to run. It's just a concept.

In the same way as we look forward to tomorrow, and what we plan to do. What do you suggest, that there is no point? It's just a concept?

I'm sorry, Rhi, but none of that makes any sense to me.

No, of course there is a point. But physicists dispute whether time exists, or if it dies exist whether it bears any resemblance to how we perceive it.

And aside from the issue of whether there is time, why does the universe have to have a 'course'? What is that? These are all concepts that are useful in making sense of our existence but there's no certainty this is 'reality'.

I'm sorry, Rhi, but I see no point in discussing this any further, since it gets us nowhere.

I will simply continue to accept that things are what they seem to be, because otherwise I wouldn't have a clue on how to live my life.

[Udayana]

Hi everyone,

The point I am making is quite simple:
...

Points 1 -9 various speculative ideas with no underlying verifiable model.

10. Of course, everyone cannot have the same level of awareness of the unconscious as some people can have.  Only a small minority will be capable of this direct awareness of the unconscious on a day to day basis. The more the conscious mind is disciplined the more the awareness of the unconscious.

11. For the vast majority... accepting the teachings of the minority would be enough.  The minority who teach the majority such matters would obviously base it on the local culture, legends, myths, social norms, emotions and the intellectual level of the people. 
...

Since there is no way of confirming who has a level of awareness of the unconscious or not (assuming for now that this is important) - this is an argument for self declared gurus to be allowed to exploit and defraud the masses.
 

[Sassy]

Jesus Christ...


How would you describe his faith?

He made a statement....

Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go

So given what you have already stated Sriram how do you figure Christ in to your take on blind faith?

[floo]

Jesus Christ...


How would you describe his faith?

He made a statement....

Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go

So given what you have already stated Sriram how do you figure Christ in to your take on blind faith?

And that statement means what exactly?

[Sassy]

Jesus Christ...


How would you describe his faith?

He made a statement....

Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go

So given what you have already stated Sriram how do you figure Christ in to your take on blind faith?

And that statement means what exactly?

Thought you knew Christianity and understood. Seems you know absolutely NOTHING as your reply confirms... Cast not thy pearls before the swine...

[floo]

Jesus Christ...


How would you describe his faith?

He made a statement....

Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go

So given what you have already stated Sriram how do you figure Christ in to your take on blind faith?

And that statement means what exactly?

Thought you knew Christianity and understood. Seems you know absolutely NOTHING as your reply confirms... Cast not thy pearls before the swine...

More garbage from poor Sass, who just doesn't have a clue!

[Hope]

Sriram, I have to admire the dogged persistence with which you plug away at the existence of something 'other'. You seem to have a stronger than usual need for it to exist. Why is that, do you think?

(That's a genuine question ... I have no idea of why it might be)

Perhaps he has a need to make sure that people appreciate that such an 'other' exists, contrary to the opinion of some on this board.  As such, I'm not sure that its a case of his having a need for it to exist, let alone a 'stronger than usual' one.

[Hope]

I don't "ignore" it, but like all specialised knowledge, it has little or no impact on our day to day life.

Again, I'd disagree, with both halves of this response, LJ.  Not only does it have a major impact on our day-to-day life, but suggesting that it doesn't means that you are ignoring it.