Faith!

[Shaker]

Sriram, I have to admire the dogged persistence with which you plug away at the existence of something 'other'. You seem to have a stronger than usual need for it to exist. Why is that, do you think?

(That's a genuine question ... I have no idea of why it might be)

Perhaps he has a need to make sure that people appreciate that such an 'other' exists, contrary to the opinion of some on this board.

Why, when absolutely no rationale or evidence is offered?

[Hope]

We cannot control our sub-conscious, by definition!

But we can inform that sub-conscious by dint of what we believe.

[Hope]

Why, when absolutely no rationale or evidence is offered?

Is that what you call the material that has been pesented, on this board alone, over the years?

[Shaker]

Why, when absolutely no rationale or evidence is offered?

Is that what you call the material that has been pesented, on this board alone, over the years?

Yes.

[Leonard James]

We cannot control our sub-conscious, by definition!

But we can inform that sub-conscious by dint of what we believe.

You can only believe what your subconscious allows.

[Hope]

Yes.

So, its a subjective opinion (its what you regard the material to be) as opposed to anything more objective.

[Hope]

You can only believe what your subconscious allows.

So, what happens to those who change their beliefs; does their sub-conscious change first, or does it change only in response to the change in belief?  After all, the latter is often a mental process

[Shaker]

If, as you claim, Sriram has a need to make people appreciate that some 'other' thing exists then he would do well to provide a coherent definition of what this 'other' actually is and then some shareable, testable evidence demonstrating its existence that everybody else can see. That seems objective enough to me.

[Leonard James]

You can only believe what your subconscious allows.

So, what happens to those who change their beliefs; does their sub-conscious change first, or does it change only in response to the change in belief?  After all, the latter is often a mental process

If, as we are told, our subconscious decides on an action before we consciously are aware of it, then it's all up to the subconscious. (Which is also a mental process, by the way.)

[torridon]

8. Now coming to the controversial bit....from ancient times people have known that we have inside ourselves a wise, knowledgeable, observant, powerful, intelligent 'mind' which controls and guides our lives. We have called it by different names...such as spirit, soul, atma, Higher Self and so on.  All these could refer to what we today call the unconscious.

9. When people have faith in an all powerful being...what really are they doing?  Faith is an awareness of the unconscious....its power and its workings... as also the relative helplessness of the conscious mind. Not having a clear idea of what it is or how it works...but being subject to its authority and decisions.....makes the situation complex....calling for faith rather than knowledge.  Real Faith, in other words, is an acknowledgement of the unconscious mind and its authority.

10. Of course, everyone cannot have the same level of awareness of the unconscious as some people can have.  Only a small minority will be capable of this direct awareness of the unconscious on a day to day basis. The more the conscious mind is disciplined the more the awareness of the unconscious.

11. For the vast majority... accepting the teachings of the minority would be enough.  The minority who teach the majority such matters would obviously base it on the local culture, legends, myths, social norms, emotions and the intellectual level of the people. 

I think to some extent you are redefining terms,like faith, to suit your purposes.To most, faith means putting one's trust in something, a person or an idea. To put trust in your own subconscious is equivalent to trusting your instincts, which is OK in some circumstances, not so good in others. Your subconscious mind is like a repository of your deeper often subliminal hopes and fears, that is no guarantee of there being some sort of objective transcendental truth down there, all humans are fallible and subconscious mind is no different in that respect.  Decluttering your conscious mind might allow you to remember what you really want, but that is no guarantee of wisdom or intelligence.

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

There is usually lot of demand for evidence...evidence of something other than normal consciousness. The unconscious mind is the evidence. Lot depends on ones programming of course. (refer to the 'evidence' thread).

In recent years it has been found  that the unconscious mind takes decisions even before the conscious mind is aware of it. Placebo effects have been linked to the unconscious mind. The unconscious mind has been found to make the most optimal decisions for ones future.  (Just go to Science Daily site and search for 'unconscious mind'....there are plenty of articles).

Therefore, as far as the conscious mind is concerned, there is now objective evidence of a subtle inner intelligence that literally guides us and does things that the conscious mind is not capable of. 

So... when we read references to 'inner truth', inner guide', Higher self, 'God within', 'know thyself'....and so on, it is clearly connected to the unconscious mind.   

How far research on the unconscious will go and how long it will all take...we do not know. What the exact nature of the unconscious mind is...we do not know. The conscious mind is too small and too dependent on the unconscious mind for it to know much. (Anyone who imagines that he 'knows' the nature of the unconscious mind...'its only this'...'its only that'...and so on, is making a big mistake). 

Of course, mere articles read from a science magazine would not be enough to convince many people. Every person should be able to notice the fact that the unconscious mind is really and truly alive and active inside him and be able to relate directly to its workings.

Once this happens, the person knows that there really is something (the 'unconscious mind' is only a term after all....and doesn't explain anything) inside him that he can rely on more than on external things.

After this, anyone, even an atheist, could conceivably curb conscious efforts at decision making and leave matters  to the unconscious mind. Even regards health matters he could start depending to a large extent on the unconscious mind to prevent/cure his ailments.  This is faith! I don't see it as different from faith in a God.

Cheers.

Sriram

[Leonard James]

After this, anyone, even an atheist, could conceivably curb conscious efforts at decision making and leave matters  to the unconscious mind. Even regards health matters he could start depending to a large extent on the unconscious mind to prevent/cure his ailments.  This is faith! I don't see it as different from faith in a God.

Cheers.

Sriram

How on earth do we "curb conscious efforts at decision making and leave matters  to the unconscious mind", Sriram?

[Rhiannon]

After this, anyone, even an atheist, could conceivably curb conscious efforts at decision making and leave matters  to the unconscious mind. Even regards health matters he could start depending to a large extent on the unconscious mind to prevent/cure his ailments.  This is faith! I don't see it as different from faith in a God.

Cheers.

Sriram

How on earth do we "curb conscious efforts at decision making and leave matters  to the unconscious mind", Sriram?

It's what we call 'gut feeling', Len.

[Leonard James]

It's what we call 'gut feeling', Len.

OIC. Well, when we can't make up our minds to do/not do something, I suppose it's the only way to go, isn't it (apart from do nothing)?

How you would measure the efficacy of such actions I can't imagine, but I would guess it is 50/50.

[torridon]

After this, anyone, even an atheist, could conceivably curb conscious efforts at decision making and leave matters  to the unconscious mind. Even regards health matters he could start depending to a large extent on the unconscious mind to prevent/cure his ailments.  This is faith! I don't see it as different from faith in a God.

Sometimes it is reasonable to go with a gut instinct, but not always.  There is a reason why we have conscious mind, it must serve essential purpose, so we cannot just throw it out as if it were useless. Also, subconscious mind is not infallible, in fact it is the repository of all our prejudices and mental pathologies, apart from anything else.  There might be wisdom in getting in touch with deeper levels of yourself but that isn't a panacea for poor decision making. In exploring aspects of self we might come to understand things we wish we didn't know for instance.

[Udayana]

Unfortunately my unconscious mind unreasonably keeps making me try and think things through logically! I suspect you have the same problem.

[ekim]

After this, anyone, even an atheist, could conceivably curb conscious efforts at decision making and leave matters  to the unconscious mind. Even regards health matters he could start depending to a large extent on the unconscious mind to prevent/cure his ailments.  This is faith! I don't see it as different from faith in a God.

Sometimes it is reasonable to go with a gut instinct, but not always.  There is a reason why we have conscious mind, it must serve essential purpose, so we cannot just throw it out as if it were useless. Also, subconscious mind is not infallible, in fact it is the repository of all our prejudices and mental pathologies, apart from anything else.  There might be wisdom in getting in touch with deeper levels of yourself but that isn't a panacea for poor decision making. In exploring aspects of self we might come to understand things we wish we didn't know for instance.

I think there needs to be some clarification as to what 'unconscious mind' is supposed to be and how does it differ from 'subconscious mind' and 'conscious mind'.  One way might be to view the conscious mind like a lamp which can be directed as a focused beam or expanded to illuminate a wider periphery.  The subconscious could be likened to an accumulation of past impressions which have either slipped beyond the threshold of illumination or have been suppressed beyond that threshold, but are capable of re-emerging into consciousness.  The unconscious would represent that which has never been exposed to the light but has the potential to be so.  As regards just having faith in the unconscious it sounds like blind faith in the unknown.  It might be better to expand the illumination.  As regards having faith in the subconscious, sometimes its inevitable e.g. where instinctive reactions are involved and survival depends upon it.  Sometimes its undesirable e.g. where addictive behaviour is involved.  As regards intuitions, I would suggest that they need checking in the cold light of day (consciousness).

[torridon]

Yes, good points there, I see more validity in your ideas than Sriram's.

[Enki]

My conscious mind(or, perhaps, my subconscious mind ) tells me that I like a lot of what you say in Mess.91,  Ekim.

[SweetPea]

Sriram, if we could learn to listen and trust our intuition, once more, things in this world could be different. Intuition is the quiet voice against the demand of the ego. To go with one's intuition can at times seem not to make sense, but the end result can sometimes be surprisingly worthwhile.

There was a tv programme a few years ago about decision making and intuition that concluded we should learn to trust our intuition more. After all, we were given this ability for a reason.   

[Sriram]

Sriram, if we could learn to listen and trust our intuition, once more, things in this world could be different. Intuition is the quiet voice against the demand of the ego. To go with one's intuition can at times seem not to make sense, but the end result can sometimes be surprisingly worthwhile.

There was a tv programme a few years ago about decision making and intuition that concluded we should learn to trust our intuition more. After all, we were given this ability for a reason.

Hi SweetPea,

Yes...lot depends however on how powerful and dominant the ego sense is.   If the sense of individuality is very strong the conscious mind will dominate and the power of the unconscious will be relatively less.  If the sense of individuality is low...the unconscious mind and intuitive powers will be more.

Back again to the same old principle of controlling the ego and being humble!!! 

For everyone....I want to clarify that ....when I talk of the unconscious mind, inner quest and such matters, I am advocating what we Hindus think of as the Jnana marga or the Path of Wisdom.  It is necessary that those who believe in following the Path of Devotion or the Path of Service, continue with it. 

Everyone doesn't have to 'understand' reality the same way. Whatever works for each person!

Cheers.

Sriram

[Leonard James]

Sometimes it is reasonable to go with a gut instinct, but not always. 

Precisely! The subconscious can just as well be wrong as can the conscious mind.

[Sriram]

The defined set of ideas and dogma of any group of people arise from the culture and teachings of the original teacher (like Jesus or Moses). These get propagated as rigid ideas over a period of time...and could even get distorted over time. But they are originally based on real experiences of natural forces that exist in all of us.

The problem with this is that in Jesus' case, a lot of the 'defined set of ideas and dogma' did not arise from the culture in which Jesus grew up.  In fact they didn't come from any culture before him.

Hope,

The unconscious/subconscious is present in everyone....but different people are able to realize it and access it  to different degrees....depending on how spiritually evolved they are. 

Jesus was probably one of the highly evolved persons who had this natural inclination and capacity to access the unconscious mind and go beyond it.  He would have been able to sense the authority and power of the inner mind.  He would have developed intuitive knowledge and understanding of life and its meaning. 

This is what he taught to the other people in a manner relevant to them and their culture.....which in course of the centuries would have become a rigid and dogmatic religious teaching.

This is what I meant.

[torridon]

The defined set of ideas and dogma of any group of people arise from the culture and teachings of the original teacher (like Jesus or Moses). These get propagated as rigid ideas over a period of time...and could even get distorted over time. But they are originally based on real experiences of natural forces that exist in all of us.

The problem with this is that in Jesus' case, a lot of the 'defined set of ideas and dogma' did not arise from the culture in which Jesus grew up.  In fact they didn't come from any culture before him.

Hope,

The unconscious/subconscious is present in everyone....but different people are able to realize it and access it  to different degrees....depending on how spiritually evolved they are. 

Jesus was probably one of the highly evolved persons who had this natural inclination and capacity to access the unconscious mind and go beyond it.  He would have been able to sense the authority and power of the inner mind.  He would have developed intuitive knowledge and understanding of life and its meaning. 

This is what he taught to the other people in a manner relevant to them and their culture.....which in course of the centuries would have become a rigid and dogmatic religious teaching.

This is what I meant.

You seem to be labouring under a profound misunderstanding here; you seem to think of sub/un/conscious mind as some sort of virtuous place where all our nobler attributes reside. There's no evidence for that as far as I know. What will be down there, in terms of psyche, is deeper levels of your self, for want of a better word, deeper levels for better or worse. If you are a psychopath, the fundamental wells of that pathology reside permanently below the levels of our conscious awareness, occasionally surfacing into daylight through dysfunctional choices and behaviours. The subconscious has no guarantee of virtue.

[ekim]

The defined set of ideas and dogma of any group of people arise from the culture and teachings of the original teacher (like Jesus or Moses). These get propagated as rigid ideas over a period of time...and could even get distorted over time. But they are originally based on real experiences of natural forces that exist in all of us.

The problem with this is that in Jesus' case, a lot of the 'defined set of ideas and dogma' did not arise from the culture in which Jesus grew up.  In fact they didn't come from any culture before him.

Hope,

The unconscious/subconscious is present in everyone....but different people are able to realize it and access it  to different degrees....depending on how spiritually evolved they are. 

Jesus was probably one of the highly evolved persons who had this natural inclination and capacity to access the unconscious mind and go beyond it.  He would have been able to sense the authority and power of the inner mind.  He would have developed intuitive knowledge and understanding of life and its meaning. 

This is what he taught to the other people in a manner relevant to them and their culture.....which in course of the centuries would have become a rigid and dogmatic religious teaching.

This is what I meant.

You seem to be labouring under a profound misunderstanding here; you seem to think of sub/un/conscious mind as some sort of virtuous place where all our nobler attributes reside. There's no evidence for that as far as I know. What will be down there, in terms of psyche, is deeper levels of your self, for want of a better word, deeper levels for better or worse. If you are a psychopath, the fundamental wells of that pathology reside permanently below the levels of our conscious awareness, occasionally surfacing into daylight through dysfunctional choices and behaviours. The subconscious has no guarantee of virtue.

That's why various religions encourage consciously transcending the subconscious.  The various analogies, like walking on the waters, flying the magic carpet, crossing a river, descending into hell and ascending into heaven may well symbolise this.