Author Topic: 'god thingies' (Read 11658 times)

Hope · « **Reply #25 on:** July 14, 2015, 01:46:13 PM »

Quote from: trippymonkey on July 14, 2015, 01:12:17 PM

I wouldn't want to be loved by that horrendous creature in the Bible.
I don't think it's capable of it if you look at what ridiculous antics it got up to.

Getting stroppy when it didn't get its own way & then throwing its toys out the pram when its 'experiment' on earth, Noah etc, didn't work.
WHY did it not work out.? Surely the ALL Supreme One would've known this, no!?!!?
Or can't even God see into the future???

Nick, if you will be one of the literalists, Christians here who read the Bible for what it is can't be accused of misrepresenting God.

An all-supreme God would know what could happen, but having decided to create non-robotic human beings, is obliged to allow that non-robotic species to make its own decisions and go its own way. However, if that free will takes that species into severe abuse, which is what appears to have happened, is it responsible of that God to allow it to continue? There are plenty of posters here who spend their time accusing God of horrendous crimes (mostly, notice, 'recorded' in a part of the documentation that was written in the 5th/6th century BC, and in thological rather than historical language), who also spends a lot of their time spitting ire at abusers.

floo · « **Reply #26 on:** July 14, 2015, 01:53:02 PM »

So all that is written in the Bible about the deity is lies, is it?

Hope · « **Reply #27 on:** July 14, 2015, 02:02:43 PM »

Quote from: Floo on July 14, 2015, 01:53:02 PM

So all that is written in the Bible about the deity is lies, is it?

Floo, the Bible is made up of a whole of literary genres. You, and others, have a habit of referencing passages from poetry, theological exposition and other genres that aren't literal in their purpose. So to suggest, as you have, that "all that is written in the Bible about the deity is lies" simply highlights how poor your understanding of the Bible is - something that you quite regularly do.

trippymonkey · « **Reply #28 on:** July 14, 2015, 02:04:15 PM »

Hope
I DO know what you're on about but it STILL begs the question WHY? Why it allowed us to F-It-Up so to speak.
Surely it knew ?!?!?!?
If so then isn't that a form of sadism & more than a little of 'I Told You So'

?

God of The Bible in ITSELF has many views of its god. These are only a few among many out in the world too.

Shaker · « **Reply #29 on:** July 14, 2015, 02:06:26 PM »

Quote from: Hope on July 14, 2015, 02:02:43 PM

So to suggest, as you have, that "all that is written in the Bible about the deity is lies" simply highlights how poor your understanding of the Bible is - something that you quite regularly do.

She didn't suggest that it is all lies; she asked you if it is, in other words, posed a question.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #30 on:** July 14, 2015, 02:11:50 PM »

Quote from: Shaker on July 14, 2015, 02:06:26 PM

Quote from: Hope on July 14, 2015, 02:02:43 PM
So to suggest, as you have, that "all that is written in the Bible about the deity is lies" simply highlights how poor your understanding of the Bible is - something that you quite regularly do.
She didn't suggest that it is all lies; she asked you if it is, in other words, posed a question.

In addition, the problem with 'literary genres', especially since Hope is using it in a modern and non relevant sense, is that even if not meant to be factually correct, they are surely aiming for some form of truth.

Aruntraveller · « **Reply #31 on:** July 14, 2015, 02:14:18 PM »

Quote from: Hope on July 14, 2015, 02:02:43 PM

Quote from: Floo on July 14, 2015, 01:53:02 PM
So all that is written in the Bible about the deity is lies, is it?
Floo, the Bible is made up of a whole of literary genres. You, and others, have a habit of referencing passages from poetry, theological exposition and other genres that aren't literal in their purpose. So to suggest, as you have, that "all that is written in the Bible about the deity is lies" simply highlights how poor your understanding of the Bible is - something that you quite regularly do.

No. Floo is only highlighting the ridiculous state of affairs that exist. Whilst you maintain that some passages are not literal, many of your Christian brothers and sisters insist that the same passages are literal. How do we come to a definitive answer on this. The answer is we can't because it is all down to the individuals interpretation - and I cannot see why yours is any more right or wrong than the next Christians interpretation.

This is, of course, due to the fact that you will jump through so many hoops to try to avoid the obvious inconsistencies plain for all to see.

floo · « **Reply #32 on:** July 14, 2015, 02:15:34 PM »

Quote from: Hope on July 14, 2015, 02:02:43 PM

Quote from: Floo on July 14, 2015, 01:53:02 PM
So all that is written in the Bible about the deity is lies, is it?
Floo, the Bible is made up of a whole of literary genres. You, and others, have a habit of referencing passages from poetry, theological exposition and other genres that aren't literal in their purpose. So to suggest, as you have, that "all that is written in the Bible about the deity is lies" simply highlights how poor your understanding of the Bible is - something that you quite regularly do.

Hope I thought you taught English? I didn't state that as a fact, I asked you a question?

How do you pick out which bits are literally true and which bits are allegorical?

Hope · « **Reply #33 on:** July 14, 2015, 02:38:37 PM »

Quote from: Floo on July 14, 2015, 02:15:34 PM

Hope I thought you taught English? I didn't state that as a fact, I asked you a question?

In such as way as to indicate that you believe that your suggestion is true. That's what comes of beingan English teacher!!

Quote

How do you pick out which bits are literally true and which bits are allegorical?

Ever heard of literary criticism, Floo? Using this, one can work out what are historical and therefore literally true, and which aren't. Let's take Genesis as an example. In the Old Testament itself, we are told that the Jewish Scriptures were lost sometime in the 5th/6th century - probably coinciding with the Babylonian invasion - and that on the rediscovery of some of the material, the Pentateuch was rewritten after the people returned from Babylon. As there is no version that predates that time, we have to assume that that is the material that was later translated into Latin, Greek and then English and other languages.

I am not a Hebrew scholar, so I have to rely on those I know who are, and there is sufficient internal evidence to indicate that the rewritten Genesis - possibly other parts of the Pentateuch as well - is not written in the same way as books such as Kings or Chronicles which are generally deemed to be historical.

So, yes, one has to study the material, which is - of course - what Jesus taught his disciples to do and, largely, the motivation for the early 'Protestant' translators who worked to bring the material to their generation in English/German/Dutch/etc.

trippymonkey · « **Reply #34 on:** July 14, 2015, 02:40:52 PM »

Hope
Is there anything in the Bible you feel should NOT be trusted & kept well away from?
It seems so with recent replies!!

ippy · « **Reply #35 on:** July 14, 2015, 02:43:02 PM »

Quote from: Hope on July 14, 2015, 02:02:43 PM

Quote from: Floo on July 14, 2015, 01:53:02 PM
So all that is written in the Bible about the deity is lies, is it?
Floo, the Bible is made up of a whole of literary genres. You, and others, have a habit of referencing passages from poetry, theological exposition and other genres that aren't literal in their purpose. So to suggest, as you have, that "all that is written in the Bible about the deity is lies" simply highlights how poor your understanding of the Bible is - something that you quite regularly do.

Who decides what's literal and what isn't?

It couldn't be someone that likes to quote out of text, a persistent offender?

Now who can I think of that could have done something like that?

ippy

OH MY WORLD! · « **Reply #36 on:** July 14, 2015, 03:30:59 PM »

Who decides what is literal? Not somebody that would ignore important details like yourself ippster.(Perth chopper video)

Who decides? You decide for yourself but only after you read, study and take in the context ippy. NOW PLEASE READ THIS!

https://www.gci.org/bible/literal

floo · « **Reply #37 on:** July 14, 2015, 03:46:14 PM »

Quote from: Hope on July 14, 2015, 02:38:37 PM

Quote from: Floo on July 14, 2015, 02:15:34 PM
Hope I thought you taught English? I didn't state that as a fact, I asked you a question?
In such as way as to indicate that you believe that your suggestion is true. That's what comes of beingan English teacher!!

Quote
How do you pick out which bits are literally true and which bits are allegorical?
Ever heard of literary criticism, Floo? Using this, one can work out what are historical and therefore literally true, and which aren't. Let's take Genesis as an example. In the Old Testament itself, we are told that the Jewish Scriptures were lost sometime in the 5th/6th century - probably coinciding with the Babylonian invasion - and that on the rediscovery of some of the material, the Pentateuch was rewritten after the people returned from Babylon. As there is no version that predates that time, we have to assume that that is the material that was later translated into Latin, Greek and then English and other languages.

I am not a Hebrew scholar, so I have to rely on those I know who are, and there is sufficient internal evidence to indicate that the rewritten Genesis - possibly other parts of the Pentateuch as well - is not written in the same way as books such as Kings or Chronicles which are generally deemed to be historical.

So, yes, one has to study the material, which is - of course - what Jesus taught his disciples to do and, largely, the motivation for the early 'Protestant' translators who worked to bring the material to their generation in English/German/Dutch/etc.

Hope so you believe the virgin birth and resurrection to be true even though they are no more credible than any of the stuff in Genesis, or other bits you don't believe to be literal? Just because Jesus, if reported correctly, believed certain things to be true, doesn't mean they are!

Hope · « **Reply #38 on:** July 14, 2015, 03:53:21 PM »

Quote from: Floo on July 14, 2015, 03:46:14 PM

Hope so you believe the virgin birth and resurrection to be true even though they are no more credible than any of the stuff in Genesis, or other bits you don't believe to be literal? Just because Jesus, if reported correctly, believed certain things to be true, doesn't mean they are!

If we were talking about human beings, of course I wouldn't believe it, but since I believe in a God (a being you don't seem to believe in), the restrictions on humanity sort of go by the board.

floo · « **Reply #39 on:** July 14, 2015, 03:57:59 PM »

Quote from: Hope on July 14, 2015, 03:53:21 PM

Quote from: Floo on July 14, 2015, 03:46:14 PM
Hope so you believe the virgin birth and resurrection to be true even though they are no more credible than any of the stuff in Genesis, or other bits you don't believe to be literal? Just because Jesus, if reported correctly, believed certain things to be true, doesn't mean they are!
If we were talking about human beings, of course I wouldn't believe it, but since I believe in a God (a being you don't seem to believe in), the restrictions on humanity sort of go by the board.

There is no difference in believing in the deity, for which there isn't the slightest bit of credible evidence, than there is in believing in unicorns, fairies, goblins, elves etc. You are selective in your belief, overlooking the bad things attributed to it!

OH MY WORLD! · « **Reply #40 on:** July 14, 2015, 04:11:26 PM »

But you admit you don't know if the Almighty exists floo. I would lean towards the fact that He does. Why else is He on your brain day in and day out? Why else would you constantly rage and struggle against Him? You are not a crazy white lady floo, so don't try using that excuse.

Hope · « **Reply #41 on:** July 14, 2015, 04:25:26 PM »

Quote from: Floo on July 14, 2015, 03:57:59 PM

There is no difference in believing in the deity, for which there isn't the slightest bit of credible evidence, than there is in believing in unicorns, fairies, goblins, elves etc. You are selective in your belief, overlooking the bad things attributed to it!

I would say that there is considerably more evidence for the former than for the latter. As such, I'd agree with you that unicorns, fairies, goblins, etc don't exist - though there seem to some here (who argue for the non-existence of God) who do believe in such things.

I do however, believe, that there is enough evidence to support the existence of God and the supernatural. You don't; you've clearly been through all the evidence you've been presented with and chosen to dismiss it. That's for you to decide.

Shaker · « **Reply #42 on:** July 14, 2015, 04:28:01 PM »

Quote from: Hope on July 14, 2015, 03:53:21 PM

Quote from: Floo on July 14, 2015, 03:46:14 PM
Hope so you believe the virgin birth and resurrection to be true even though they are no more credible than any of the stuff in Genesis, or other bits you don't believe to be literal? Just because Jesus, if reported correctly, believed certain things to be true, doesn't mean they are!
If we were talking about human beings, of course I wouldn't believe it, but since I believe in a God (a being you don't seem to believe in), the restrictions on humanity sort of go by the board.

In other words, to rephrase this, it means that removing the restrictions of biology, evidentialism, rationality and so forth gives you carte blanche to believe absolutely anything.

Hardly a surprise.

ippy · « **Reply #43 on:** July 14, 2015, 05:13:03 PM »

Quote from: johnny canoe on July 14, 2015, 03:30:59 PM

Who decides what is literal? Not somebody that would ignore important details like yourself ippster.(Perth chopper video)

Who decides? You decide for yourself but only after you read, study and take in the context ippy. NOW PLEASE READ THIS!

https://www.gci.org/bible/literal

Can't you feel the call of the wild tugging at you Woody, drawing you ever nearer to anywhere they've got trees, isn't it a part of what being a Canadian is all about?

I was going to send you a YouTube logging slot but when I put in Canadian loggers, with the amount of Canadian Logging there is being done, no wonder we're all worried about deforestation, perhaps they should prevent Canadians traveling to keep the worldwide CO2 emissions down.

ippy

floo · « **Reply #44 on:** July 14, 2015, 05:23:56 PM »

Quote from: johnny canoe on July 14, 2015, 04:11:26 PM

But you admit you don't know if the Almighty exists floo. I would lean towards the fact that He does. Why else is He on your brain day in and day out? Why else would you constantly rage and struggle against Him? You are not a crazy white lady floo, so don't try using that excuse.

Of course it could exist and all that is claimed for it is true, in which case I must have my asbestos clothing ready for when I am chucked into the fires of hell.

I rage and struggle against the extreme 'born again' belief, which did me no favours as a kid as it can be very abusive.

Some kids and vulnerable adults are no doubt suffering as I did when having that ghastly dogma thrust down their throats.

I have absolutely no problem with moderate live and let live Christians like my own children.

Hope · « **Reply #45 on:** July 14, 2015, 07:58:24 PM »

Quote from: Floo on July 14, 2015, 05:23:56 PM

Of course it could exist and all that is claimed for it is true, in which case I must have my asbestos clothing ready for when I am chucked into the fires of hell.

Well, the Bible makes it pretty clear that it is an individual who chooses to take that path. God won't throw you into them; he just won't stop you from taking that path.

Quote

I rage and struggle against the extreme 'born again' belief, which did me no favours as a kid as it can be very abusive. Some kids and vulnerable adults are no doubt suffering as I did when having that ghastly dogma thrust down their throats.

Sadly, I've come across children and adults with exactly the same feelings you have who have been brought up in atheist, agnostic, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist families - in fact, in just about every type of family. That would suggest that the problem is with humanity and not God.

Quote

I have absolutely no problem with moderate live and let live Christians like my own children.

Do your ordained children never preach the Gospel?

ippy · « **Reply #46 on:** July 14, 2015, 08:32:55 PM »

Quote from: Hope on July 14, 2015, 07:58:24 PM

Quote from: Floo on July 14, 2015, 05:23:56 PM
Of course it could exist and all that is claimed for it is true, in which case I must have my asbestos clothing ready for when I am chucked into the fires of hell.
Well, the Bible makes it pretty clear that it is an individual who chooses to take that path. God won't throw you into them; he just won't stop you from taking that path.

Quote
I rage and struggle against the extreme 'born again' belief, which did me no favours as a kid as it can be very abusive. Some kids and vulnerable adults are no doubt suffering as I did when having that ghastly dogma thrust down their throats.
Sadly, I've come across children and adults with exactly the same feelings you have who have been brought up in atheist, agnostic, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist families - in fact, in just about every type of family. That would suggest that the problem is with humanity and not God.

Quote
I have absolutely no problem with moderate live and let live Christians like my own children.
Do your ordained children never preach the Gospel?

How does this god thingy of yours contact you with he, she or it's innermost thoughts, on the phone, email, loud booming voice from the sky, etc?

Give me an insight of this vivid imagination of yours.

ippy

Hope · « **Reply #47 on:** July 15, 2015, 10:19:09 AM »

Quote from: ippy on July 14, 2015, 08:32:55 PM

How does this god thingy of yours contact you with he, she or it's innermost thoughts, on the phone, email, loud booming voice from the sky, etc?

Give me an insight of this vivid imagination of yours.

ippy

Some of the methods you suggest do work. For instance, I get commentaries on Biblical passages by email; I discuss theology with friends on the phone; I do the same on this website: I meet up with friends to study the Bible - which is perhaps the greatest collection of material that outlines God's plans for this world; I read parallel translations, including the original Greek. I don't read Hebrew, so when there is a issue I'm not sure about, I ask people I know who do.

There are many other ways of hearing and seeing God's presence.

Shaker · « **Reply #48 on:** July 15, 2015, 10:32:31 AM »

Those are all examples of hearing/seeing/reading other human beings and their own ~~unverifiable madey-uppy fancies~~ interpretations of what they think a god is like, does and wants, not actually a god.

ippy · « **Reply #49 on:** July 15, 2015, 11:34:22 AM »

Quote from: Hope on July 15, 2015, 10:19:09 AM

Quote from: ippy on July 14, 2015, 08:32:55 PM
How does this god thingy of yours contact you with he, she or it's innermost thoughts, on the phone, email, loud booming voice from the sky, etc?

Give me an insight of this vivid imagination of yours.

ippy
Some of the methods you suggest do work. For instance, I get commentaries on Biblical passages by email; I discuss theology with friends on the phone; I do the same on this website: I meet up with friends to study the Bible - which is perhaps the greatest collection of material that outlines God's plans for this world; I read parallel translations, including the original Greek. I don't read Hebrew, so when there is a issue I'm not sure about, I ask people I know who do.

There are many other ways of hearing and seeing God's presence.

Have you always had this kind of imagination and if you do think you're on the blower to the he, she or it your god thingy, how would you know these messages are coming from directly from the big god thingy?

I suggest you don't know anymore than any of the rest of us.

It's a wonderful thing the imagination.

ippy

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Author Topic: 'god thingies' (Read 11658 times)

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