Do you believe in hell?

[Hope]

I don't know where this idea has come about. Indeed, God is everywhere as the Psalmist says "If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_hell#Orthodox_conceptions_of_hell

It comes from Jesus' own teaching that those in hell are separated from God, ad_o.  They will not be in his presence.

[trippymonkey]

Again you say there are places where YOUR god is not??
Not THE GOD then is it ?!!?!?

[2Corrie]

"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all nations that forget God."   Psalm 9:17

Now the wicked and the righteous do not go to the same place so I cannot accept that hell is just the grave. Nope, in this case hell is more than the grave.

'Hell' 'Grave', same word - 'Sheol' throughout the OT, as far as I'm aware.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die"  Ezekiel

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:2

[Hope]

Again you say there are places where YOUR god is not??
Not THE GOD then is it ?!!?!?

Why not?  As I understand it, when we get to this point in time - namely Judgement Day - God will allow those who don't want to have anything to do with him to have their wish.  They will simply not have his presence with them.  They will have made their choice and he will respect that choice.  Or are you trying to suggest that God will overrule freewill and impose his presence regardless of an individual's choice whilst alive?  It what you suggest is the case, then yes, I'd agree - Not THE GOD then.

[BeRational]

It's not NS by the way.

Sorry, my mistake

I do not understand, I do not believe we currently have a god in this universe, and yet we can still discuss the possibility of it.

Precisely, you believe that there is no god, yet you can still debate/discuss the possibility. In hell, I don't believe that you will be able to because then God will definitely not be there.

What would a universe with no god in it look like?

I would have to question whether there would be a universe if God was not here.

I suggest it would look just like this one.

That's your prerogative.

No you make a big mistake when you say I believe there is no god.
I think you misstyped as you know I am an atheist, and that is s not atheism.

I do not believe your God exists, BUT that is NOT the same as saying I believe your God does not exist.

Do you understand the difference, as it to s crucial and you need to understand and accept this

[BeRational]

Again you say there are places where YOUR god is not??
Not THE GOD then is it ?!!?!?

Why not?  As I understand it, when we get to this point in time - namely Judgement Day - God will allow those who don't want to have anything to do with him to have their wish.  They will simply not have his presence with them.  They will have made their choice and he will respect that choice.  Or are you trying to suggest that God will overrule freewill and impose his presence regardless of an individual's choice whilst alive?  It what you suggest is the case, then yes, I'd agree - Not THE GOD then.

What would a universe that has no god look like?

How would it differ from this one?

Remember there is no evidence of a God or gods in this one and anyone that thinks there is does itvsoley on faith or make believe.

[BashfulAnthony]

It's not NS by the way.

Sorry, my mistake

I do not understand, I do not believe we currently have a god in this universe, and yet we can still discuss the possibility of it.

Precisely, you believe that there is no god, yet you can still debate/discuss the possibility. In hell, I don't believe that you will be able to because then God will definitely not be there.

What would a universe with no god in it look like?

I would have to question whether there would be a universe if God was not here.

I suggest it would look just like this one.

That's your prerogative.

No you make a big mistake when you say I believe there is no god.
I think you misstyped as you know I am an atheist, and that is s not atheism.

I do not believe your God exists, BUT that is NOT the same as saying I believe your God does not exist.

Do you understand the difference, as it to s crucial and you need to understand and accept this

Do you really have to be so condescending?

[ad_orientem]

I don't know where this idea has come about. Indeed, God is everywhere as the Psalmist says "If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_hell#Orthodox_conceptions_of_hell

It comes from Jesus' own teaching that those in hell are separated from God, ad_o.  They will not be in his presence.

Then show us where, in your opinion, and we shall see.

Nothing exists apart from God. Were God to completely to withdraw his presence from anywhere or anything it would cease to exist.

[Hope]

Then show us where, in your opinion, and we shall see.

The story about the sheep and goats in Matthew 25. 

41 ‘Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was ill and in prison and you did not look after me.”

44 ‘They also will answer, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or ill or in prison, and did not help you?”

45 ‘He will reply, “Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.”

46 ‘Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.’

Nothing exists apart from God. Were God to completely to withdraw his presence from anywhere or anything it would cease to exist.

I believe that this is where John Stott got his idea of annihilationism.  Perhaps that is what 'eternal punishment' involves?  The Bible doesn't explain it in detail.  In a way, that is understandable; rather than frightening people into heaven by explaining hell in detail, it seeks to encourage people into heaven by giving rather more detail about what life in heaven will be like.

Interestingly, it was only with the advent of Faust and writings such as that of Dante that the modern hellfire and brimstone idea of hell became 'popular'.

[ad_orientem]

That passage says nothing about being completely separated from God. The isea of a firery prison goes back long before Dante etc and for good reason, for that is the picture scripture paints. But it is not a place where God is not present. The fire is God himself, or rather his presence.

[Leonard James]

Nothing exists apart from God. Were God to completely to withdraw his presence from anywhere or anything it would cease to exist.

Where on earth did you get this bizarre idea from?

[torridon]

He's a closet pantheist it would seem

[trippymonkey]

Isn't God 'everywhere, IN everything?
How could I go to a 'place' where there is NO God?
How can there be somewhere God cannot be or go?

Nick

[ad_orientem]

He's a closet pantheist it would seem

No indeed! God transcends creation but he is also immanent. In otherwords, as to substance God is distinct from creation but he's energies are present throughout it. Pantheism would confuse God with creation itself.

[ad_orientem]

Nothing exists apart from God. Were God to completely to withdraw his presence from anywhere or anything it would cease to exist.

Where on earth did you get this bizarre idea from?

There's nothing bizarre about it. It's pretty standard Christian belief. Everything was created by God and nothing exists apart from God.

[BeRational]

It's not NS by the way.

Sorry, my mistake

I do not understand, I do not believe we currently have a god in this universe, and yet we can still discuss the possibility of it.

Precisely, you believe that there is no god, yet you can still debate/discuss the possibility. In hell, I don't believe that you will be able to because then God will definitely not be there.

What would a universe with no god in it look like?

I would have to question whether there would be a universe if God was not here.

I suggest it would look just like this one.

That's your prerogative.

No you make a big mistake when you say I believe there is no god.
I think you misstyped as you know I am an atheist, and that is s not atheism.

I do not believe your God exists, BUT that is NOT the same as saying I believe your God does not exist.

Do you understand the difference, as it to s crucial and you need to understand and accept this

Do you really have to be so condescending?

This is to make the point.

I have stated a fact.

It has to be acknowledged otherwise further discussion will be on the wrong footing.

Do you understand that NOT believing your God exists is NOT the same as believing that your God does not exist?

The difference is crucial but easy to miss it seems.

[ad_orientem]

If there is any difference (if being the operative word) then it's so minute as to be totally insignificant.

[BeRational]

If there is any difference (if being the operative word) then it's so minute as to be totally insignificant.

That's the mistake.

There is a massive difference and unless you understand  it you will continue to make logical mistakes.

Anyone who writes computer code would see and be aware of the massive difference between the two statements which I admit at first reading seem to be equivalent but they are not.

[Hope]

Do you understand the difference, as it to s crucial and you need to understand and accept this

So, are you saying that the Oxford Dictionary definition is wrong - "Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods".

[BeRational]

Do you understand the difference, as it to s crucial and you need to understand and accept this

So, are you saying that the Oxford Dictionary definition is wrong - "Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods".

They are two meanings and are NOT equivalent.
I lack a belief in your God.

Try this to understand a bit easier.

I have a lawn and I do NOT believe it has an odd number of blades of grass.
I also do NOT believe it has an even number.

[ad_orientem]

If there is any difference (if being the operative word) then it's so minute as to be totally insignificant.

That's the mistake.

There is a massive difference and unless you understand  it you will continue to make logical mistakes.

Anyone who writes computer code would see and be aware of the massive difference between the two statements which I admit at first reading seem to be equivalent but they are not.

Fairy nuff.

[Hope]

They are two meanings and are NOT equivalent.
I lack a belief in your God.

So, you hold one of the two possible positions that define atheism.  So your suggestion that "I think you misstyped as you know I am an atheist, and that is s not atheism" is actually incorrect.  Or are you saying that you are an atheist who believes in a god other than the Christian God?

[BeRational]

They are two meanings and are NOT equivalent.
I lack a belief in your God.

So, you hold one of the two possible positions that define atheism.  So your suggestion that "I think you misstyped as you know I am an atheist, and that is s not atheism" is actually incorrect.  Or are you saying that you are an atheist who believes in a god other than the Christian God?

No not a all.

I lack a believe in ALL and any god(s).

I do not believe in any god.

That is NOT the same as saying I believe no god(s) exist.

The difference is subtle but when you have looked at as much computer code as I have, it is massive.

I hate lots of nested double not if statements as you turn somersaults trying to figure out what some code is doing.

[Hope]

I do not believe in any god.

That is NOT the same as saying I believe no god(s) exist.

The difference is subtle but when you have looked at as much computer code as I have, it is massive.

I hate lots of nested double not if statements as you turn somersaults trying to figure out what some code is doing.

But your stance still adheres to the dictionary definition of atheism, meaning that your claim that I had mistyped continues to be wrong.  By the way, I don't do computer code; I do human code, especially as we are dealing in human code on a site such as this.

[BeRational]

I do not believe in any god.

That is NOT the same as saying I believe no god(s) exist.

The difference is subtle but when you have looked at as much computer code as I have, it is massive.

I hate lots of nested double not if statements as you turn somersaults trying to figure out what some code is doing.

But your stance still adheres to the dictionary definition of atheism, meaning that your claim that I had mistyped continues to be wrong.  By the way, I don't do computer code; I do human code, especially as we are dealing in human code on a site such as this.

If you do code it improves your logic.

So you will know that not believing X is true, is NOT the same as believing X is false.

You do see that?