Royals' Nazi salute

[L.A.]

Don't misunderstand me, JC.
Wheras the footage can't be used to condemn the actions of a six year old girl, it DOES confirm that the very closest members of her aristocrsatic family sympsathised with the Nazi ideology., at least befiore they were forced to change their mind when war broke out (or, at the least, conceal their views).

I thought everybody already knew that Edward VIII was a Nazi sympathiser.

=-
Most of us did, Jeremy.
This footage is just another piece of confirmatory evidence.
It also shows the bias in favour of nazi ideology which permiated the upper classes before the outbreak of war.

So what?  It was a different time then. Hitler had just rescued Germany from economic ruin. It's not surprising he had some admirers.

It is often forgotten that in their early years in government the NAZI party did a lot of good things for Germany and had a lot of admirers throughout the world. It was only later that there true colours became obvious.

[Hope]

The Queen was a young kid copying her mother, so is not to blame at all for that gesture. What possessed her mother to give the Nazi salute goodness only knows. But apparently she was not the sweet, little old lady, which was her public persona!

Floo, this was 1933; Hitler had been in power for no more than 6 or 7 months, and all the atrocities we associate with him were years in the future.  I doubt any adult of any social status understood what the raised arm symbolised - not even in Germany.

[Hope]

Don't misunderstand me, JC.
Wheras the footage can't be used to condemn the actions of a six year old girl, it DOES confirm that the very closest members of her aristocrsatic family sympsathised with the Nazi ideology., at least befiore they were forced to change their mind when war broke out (or, at the least, conceal their views).

And just what was the Nazi ideology in 1933, Jim?  I believe it changed pretty quickly after about 1936, but it was predominantly an economic policy back in 1933 which is why they were elected by the German people.  I suspect most people had sympathy for the Germans and their plight; someone likened the current Greek situation to the situation in which the Germans found themselves back in the early 1930s.

[Anchorman]

Of course Anchorman is going to provide us with the evidence for all his assertions.

The Queen Mum was so taken by Hitler and the Nazis that after reading Mein Kampf, which she called soap box but interesting, she warned Lord Halifax not to read it all because it may make him go mad. The Palestinians were active supporters of the Nazis. Yes, active supporters.


"The two people who have caused me the most trouble in my life are Wallis Simpson and Hitler"   QE(Queen Mum)

-
Why do I need to provide you with evidence?
You can access a search engine?
Go check on Nazism and the British Upper classes.
Whilst you're at it, check Liz Bowes Lyon, chair of charities for those with learning difficulties - you know, the old dear with the nice smile?
The same patron of charities for those with learning difficulties who never bothered to visit two of her close relatives who were plonked into institutions because her ever-caring family might have been embarassed.

[Anchorman]

Don't misunderstand me, JC.
Wheras the footage can't be used to condemn the actions of a six year old girl, it DOES confirm that the very closest members of her aristocrsatic family sympsathised with the Nazi ideology., at least befiore they were forced to change their mind when war broke out (or, at the least, conceal their views).

And just what was the Nazi ideology in 1933, Jim?  I believe it changed pretty quickly after about 1936, but it was predominantly an economic policy back in 1933 which is why they were elected by the German people.  I suspect most people had sympathy for the Germans and their plight; someone likened the current Greek situation to the situation in which the Germans found themselves back in the early 1930s.

-
Fascist ideology didn't spring full grown onto an unsuspecting world after Krystalnacht, Hope.
The doctrines of the ideology were well known outside Germany before 1933.
Warnings were being posted to the British foriegn Office as early as 1930 - and the then Prince of Wales had access to F.O papers, at both his, and his father's, insistance.

[L.A.]

Of course Anchorman is going to provide us with the evidence for all his assertions.

The Queen Mum was so taken by Hitler and the Nazis that after reading Mein Kampf, which she called soap box but interesting, she warned Lord Halifax not to read it all because it may make him go mad. The Palestinians were active supporters of the Nazis. Yes, active supporters.


"The two people who have caused me the most trouble in my life are Wallis Simpson and Hitler"   QE(Queen Mum)

-
Why do I need to provide you with evidence?
You can access a search engine?
Go check on Nazism and the British Upper classes.
Whilst you're at it, check Liz Bowes Lyon, chair of charities for those with learning difficulties - you know, the old dear with the nice smile?
The same patron of charities for those with learning difficulties who never bothered to visit two of her close relatives who were plonked into institutions because her ever-caring family might have been embarassed.

Hi Anchorman,

I'd say that you are totally wrong there.  The NAZI party was  the "National Socialist German Workers' Party". It's UK counterpart, Mosley's "British Union of Fascists" was aimed at working people and Mosley himself had been a Labour MP.

In the early 1930's a great many people from all classes thought this was the way forward - and why not? Hitler was doing marvellous things for Germany!

It's the ones who didn't later change their minds who are the dodgy ones.

[Shaker]

I'd say that you are totally wrong there.  The NAZI party was  the "National Socialist German Workers' Party".

Bold it all you like; what were the socialist credentials and socialist policies of the Nazis? Why was communism second only to (especially European) Jewry on the Nazi shit list?

Probably the finest hour of socialism in Britain was the immediate post-war government of Clement Attlee, regarded by many historians (and by people like me, not historians) as the greatest prime minister this country has ever had. What points of contact and similarity do Hitler's party and governance and Attlee's Labour party and premiership share?

[L.A.]

I'd say that you are totally wrong there.  The NAZI party was  the "National Socialist German Workers' Party".

Bold it all you like; what were the socialist credentials and socialist policies of the Nazis? Why was communism second only to (especially European) Jewry on the Nazi shit list?

Probably the finest hour of socialism in Britain was the immediate post-war government of Clement Attlee, regarded by many historians (and by people like me, not historians) as the greatest prime minister this country has ever had. What points of contact and similarity do Hitler's party and governance and Attlee's Labour party and premiership share?

That's as maybe, and with hindsight we might consider that their agenda was not Socialist - but at the time they described themselves as Socialists and they focused their policies on helping the workers (or at least the Aryan ones)

[L.A.]

What points of contact and similarity do Hitler's party and governance and Attlee's Labour party and premiership share?

Actually thinking about it, they were both responsible for great improvements in health care.

[Shaker]

That's as maybe, and with hindsight we might consider that their agenda was not Socialist

You don't even have to bother with hindsight - think of any of the actually socialist government/party/movement of that same historical period and see what points of contact and similarity any of them had with the Nazi party.

but at the time they described themselves as Socialists

Therefore they were?

and they focused their policies on helping the workers (or at least the Aryan ones)

So racism was built into it from the start.

[Shaker]

What points of contact and similarity do Hitler's party and governance and Attlee's Labour party and premiership share?

Actually thinking about it, they were both responsible for great improvements in health care.

... unless of course you were what was then known as mentally handicapped, degenerate, a moral imbecile (and so forth) and thus ripe for extermination under the Aktion T4 program.

That's Hitler, by the way, not Clem Attlee, in case there was any doubt as to the socialist credentials here.

[L.A.]

You don't even have to bother with hindsight - think of any of the actually socialist government/party/movement of that same historical period and see what points of contact and similarity any of them had with the Nazi party.

Do you mean that Socialist movement  than created Stalin - the only man in recent history who might have been responsible for more deaths than Hitler?

[Shaker]

You don't even have to bother with hindsight - think of any of the actually socialist government/party/movement of that same historical period and see what points of contact and similarity any of them had with the Nazi party.

Do you mean that Socialist movement  than created Stalin - the only man in recent history who might have been responsible for more deaths than Hitler?

No.

[L.A.]

Shaker - I'm not claiming that Hitler was a nice man or that the NAZI party were just a bunch of do-gooders. Simply that in the 1930's things were not so straightforward.

[Shaker]

Shaker - I'm not claiming that Hitler was a nice man or that the NAZI party were just a bunch of do-gooders.

Neither am I.

I'm stating, as a matter of simple fact, that the inclusion of the word socialist in the full title of the Nazi party was erroneous and bore absolutely no resemblance of any kind whatever to anything that even its opponents might regard or define as socialism.

[L.A.]

Shaker - I'm not claiming that Hitler was a nice man or that the NAZI party were just a bunch of do-gooders.

Neither am I.

I'm stating, as a matter of simple fact, that the inclusion of the word socialist in the full title of the Nazi party was erroneous and bore absolutely no resemblance of any kind whatever to anything that even its opponents might regard or define as socialism.

Like it or not, that's how they described themselves - just as Stalin's mob did.

[Shaker]

Like it or not, that's how they described themselves - just as Stalin's mob did.

... which really does seem to equate in your mind to "Somebody describes themselves as X, therefore they actually are X."

[cyberman]

I'd say that you are totally wrong there.  The NAZI party was  the "National Socialist German Workers' Party".

Bold it all you like; what were the socialist credentials and socialist policies of the Nazis? Why was communism second only to (especially European) Jewry on the Nazi shit list?

Probably the finest hour of socialism in Britain was the immediate post-war government of Clement Attlee, regarded by many historians (and by people like me, not historians) as the greatest prime minister this country has ever had. What points of contact and similarity do Hitler's party and governance and Attlee's Labour party and premiership share?

/\
 What he said. It's all good.

[Rhiannon]

I am trying so hard to give a shit about this, but I'm failing dismally.

No, I lied. I'm not even trying.

[cyberman]

I am trying so hard to give a shit about this, but I'm failing dismally.

No, I lied. I'm not even trying.

Shall we call that "doing an Ippy"? - contributing to a thread only to say that you are not interested in the thread.

[Rhiannon]

No, I'm interested in the fact that The Sun have published it, and the fact people are apparently outraged.

[Shaker]

It is often forgotten that in their early years in government the NAZI party did a lot of good things for Germany and had a lot of admirers throughout the world. It was only later that there true colours became obvious.

How much later did it take? Dachau was opened in March 1933, two months after Hitler came to power as Chancellor. Now then: Dachau, I fully concede, was a concentration camp in the most literal sense of the term - a single place designed to concentrate together large numbers of people. It wasn't a death camp, a specifically and explicitly designed death factory in the way that Auschwitz was post-1942, a site intended simply to get Jews in by train at one end and send them out up the chimney at the other.

Nevertheless. The inhumanity and brutality of Dachau are on record and well known to those who take an interest in these sordid and ugly matters. It's often (and only partially accurately) said that the Fascist government of Mussolini's Italy drained the Pontine Marshes and got the trains to run on time, but no fascist government on earth can conceive of, design and build a place of the size and nature of Dachau in two months. What I'm saying is, the idea that your political opponents and social undesirables can be summarily arrested, held without due process and incarcerated without trial, subject to starvation and torture, didn't whip up out of nowhere in the two months between Hitler's accession to power and the opening of Dachau. The signs were all there and had been, for a good long while.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Anchorman,
Real big to hold a grudge against her for the actions of her uncle. And there maybe no record of a visit but that's no proof that visits did not occur. If family did not want it announced so what. And all this feeds your bitter heart, sad really. It wasn't your family affair so why not mind your own business? Oh no, you couldn't cause this feeds that age old bitterness you keep alive.

[Shaker]

And there maybe no record of a visit but that's no proof that visits did not occur.

Uh oh ...

[Anchorman]

Anchorman,
Real big to hold a grudge against her for the actions of her uncle. And there maybe no record of a visit but that's no proof that visits did not occur. If family did not want it announced so what. And all this feeds your bitter heart, sad really. It wasn't your family affair so why not mind your own business? Oh no, you couldn't cause this feeds that age old bitterness you keep alive.

Actually, JC - there's abundant proof that lLizzie Bowes-lyon didn't bother visiting her disabled relatives....members of the Bowes-Lyon family confirmed it.
I think they'd know, wouldn't you?