Information & knowledge

[L.A.]

Go on then. What are the odds of there being life on another planet?

What?  on one particlular  planet?  One of the hundreds of billions in this galaxy (except this one), one of the hundreds of billions in any one of the hundreds of billions of galaxies in the visible Universe or one of the potentially infinite number in the entire Universe?

Any planet at all other than on Earth

I'd say the odds that there is life elsewhere in the Universe approach 100%

Given the size of the universe, that must be true. Suitable conditions for life must exist in billions of locations, so it seems a good bet that life must have started in at least some of them.

[cyberman]

Go on then. What are the odds of there being life on another planet?

What?  on one particlular  planet?  One of the hundreds of billions in this galaxy (except this one), one of the hundreds of billions in any one of the hundreds of billions of galaxies in the visible Universe or one of the potentially infinite number in the entire Universe?

Any planet at all other than on Earth

I'd say the odds that there is life elsewhere in the Universe approach 100%

Given the size of the universe, that must be true. Suitable conditions for life must exist in billions of locations, so it seems a good bet that life must have started in at least some of them.

How good a bet? What are the odds?

[Harrowby Hall]

Yes, there's more than a subtle difference isn't there. We are fed information that is like 'wallpaper' turning our minds into mush. The media is the main culprit. The internet and mobile 'phones are very addictive.

We naturally crave knowledge, but it's learning to discern and decode to find true knowledge.

Yes.  Knowledge is not just information but also includes how the information is processed. It includes our mental programming and how we analyse the information.

Even with little information... if the processing is sophisticated...great knowledge can be gained. Even with lots of information...if the processing is rudimentary...little knowledge can be gained.

You are getting there.

Information is generic and available. Knowledge is the consequence of experience and understanding.

A bus timetable is information. That the 8.25 is always five minutes late is knowledge.

[Leonard James]

Let's put it in the simplest terms.

There are are a very large number of planets in the universe, all of them with varying physical attributes, but all composed of an assortment of elements and compounds whose properties are known to us.

The conditions necessary for life as we know it to develop are not that great in number, and it follows that there may even be other life forms that need less.

Given the above, it is highly probable that some life form exists, has existed, or will exist somewhere else in the universe.

[Hope]

Given the size of the universe, that must be true. Suitable conditions for life must exist in billions of locations, so it seems a good bet that life must have started in at least some of them.

'Must' exist?  As I understand it the habitable orbit of the earth around our sun is limited to a pretty small range.  Whatever the nature of any other life there might be out there, the chances of a mass of material coalescig together in the equivalent range in another planetary system is pretty small - after all, it was pretty small in ours.

[BeRational]

Given the size of the universe, that must be true. Suitable conditions for life must exist in billions of locations, so it seems a good bet that life must have started in at least some of them.

'Must' exist?  As I understand it the habitable orbit of the earth around our sun is limited to a pretty small range.  Whatever the nature of any other life there might be out there, the chances of a mass of material coalescig together in the equivalent range in another planetary system is pretty small - after all, it was pretty small in ours.

Why was it small in ours?
Venus could be a contender apart from the runaway greenhouse effect that could also kill us.
Also, we do not know what the parameters for life are.

Perhaps there are lifeforms in Jupiters upper gas layers, who knows.
To rule it out you would have to know where life can exist and under what conditions.
We don't know.

[Shaker]

'Must' exist?  As I understand it the habitable orbit of the earth around our sun is limited to a pretty small range.  Whatever the nature of any other life there might be out there, the chances of a mass of material coalescig together in the equivalent range in another planetary system is pretty small - after all, it was pretty small in ours.

https://goo.gl/UC8BbO

http://goo.gl/gBQ5iK

[cyberman]

Let's put it in the simplest terms.

There are are a very large number of planets in the universe, all of them with varying physical attributes, but all composed of an assortment of elements and compounds whose properties are known to us.

The conditions necessary for life as we know it to develop are not that great in number, and it follows that there may even be other life forms that need less.

Given the above, it is highly probable that some life form exists, has existed, or will exist somewhere else in the universe.

No, there's no need to put it in the simplest terms. Nice way to dodge answering though.

"Highly probable"...how probable? What are the odds?

[Leonard James]

Let's put it in the simplest terms.

There are are a very large number of planets in the universe, all of them with varying physical attributes, but all composed of an assortment of elements and compounds whose properties are known to us.

The conditions necessary for life as we know it to develop are not that great in number, and it follows that there may even be other life forms that need less.

Given the above, it is highly probable that some life form exists, has existed, or will exist somewhere else in the universe.

No, there's no need to put it in the simplest terms. Nice way to dodge answering though.

"Highly probable"...how probable? What are the odds?

I don't know, but I doubt that NASA would have spent 600 million dollars on an idea that was not highly probable.

[jeremyp]

What makes you think there's an infinite number of planets?

The fact that it looks like the Universe is infinite.

Comes close to.

How close? What are the odds?

It's a mathematical thing, it means "is very nearly but not quite".

If there are n planets and the probability that a planet has life on it is p, then the probability that no planet has life on it is (1 - p)ⁿ and therefore the probability that at least one planet has life on is 1 - (1 - p)ⁿ

In mathematics, we say "as n approaches infinity, 1 - (1 - p)ⁿ approaches 1"

It is in that sense I use the word "approaches". 

[cyberman]

What makes you think there's an infinite number of planets?

The fact that it looks like the Universe is infinite.

erm.. no it doesn't. I take it you don't believe in the Big Bang, then?

[jeremyp]

What makes you think there's an infinite number of planets?

The fact that it looks like the Universe is infinite.

erm.. no it doesn't. I take it you don't believe in the Big Bang, then?

Don't be misled into thinking that the Big Bang is like a point exploding.  The Universe appears to be accelerating, therefore it is not a closed curve (according to GR). 

[cyberman]

  The Universe appears to be accelerating, therefore it is not a closed curve (according to GR).

Do you mean the rate of expansion seems to be accelerating?

[jeremyp]

  The Universe appears to be accelerating, therefore it is not a closed curve (according to GR).

Do you mean the rate of expansion seems to be accelerating?

Yes.

[cyberman]

  The Universe appears to be accelerating, therefore it is not a closed curve (according to GR).

Do you mean the rate of expansion seems to be accelerating?

Yes.

Surely it can't be both infinite and expanding, can it?

[jeremyp]

  The Universe appears to be accelerating, therefore it is not a closed curve (according to GR).

Do you mean the rate of expansion seems to be accelerating?

Yes.

Surely it can't be both infinite and expanding, can it?

Why not?

[cyberman]

  The Universe appears to be accelerating, therefore it is not a closed curve (according to GR).

Do you mean the rate of expansion seems to be accelerating?

Yes.

Surely it can't be both infinite and expanding, can it?

Why not?

You can't say "it is infinite now, but in a minute it will be a measurable amount bigger" - it would be nonsense

[jeremyp]

You can't say "it is infinite now, but in a minute it will be a measurable amount bigger" - it would be nonsense

Actually, it's more a case of everything being further apart. 

Imagine an infinite number line with all the whole numbers marked on it at 1cm intervals.  Then stretch the line uniformly so that all the numbers are 2cm apart.  To an ant - say - standing on one of the numbers, it looks like everything has moved further away, but in reality, the line has expanded.  This is analogous to space time expanding.

[cyberman]

You can't say "it is infinite now, but in a minute it will be a measurable amount bigger" - it would be nonsense

Actually, it's more a case of everything being further apart. 

Imagine an infinite number line with all the whole numbers marked on it at 1cm intervals.  Then stretch the line uniformly so that all the numbers are 2cm apart.  To an ant - say - standing on one of the numbers, it looks like everything has moved further away, but in reality, the line has expanded.  This is analogous to space time expanding.

yes I know  - but if the line has expanded then it can't be infinite, can it? the conundrum still remains - you can't say the line is infinitely long.. and now it is a bit longer.

[jeremyp]

yes I know  - but if the line has expanded then it can't be infinite, can it?

Why not?

the conundrum still remains - you can't say the line is infinitely long.. and now it is a bit longer.

You need to do some Cantorian set theory.

[cyberman]

the conundrum still remains - you can't say the line is infinitely long.. and now it is a bit longer.

You need to do some Cantorian set theory.

So you don't have an answer then.

[ekim]

Let's put it in the simplest terms.

There are are a very large number of planets in the universe, all of them with varying physical attributes, but all composed of an assortment of elements and compounds whose properties are known to us.

The conditions necessary for life as we know it to develop are not that great in number, and it follows that there may even be other life forms that need less.

Given the above, it is highly probable that some life form exists, has existed, or will exist somewhere else in the universe.

No, there's no need to put it in the simplest terms. Nice way to dodge answering though.

"Highly probable"...how probable? What are the odds?

I don't know, but I doubt that NASA would have spent 600 million dollars on an idea that was not highly probable.

Help is at hand ....... http://www.euronews.com/2015/07/20/why-haven-t-we-found-alien-life-yet/

[BeRational]

  The Universe appears to be accelerating, therefore it is not a closed curve (according to GR).

Do you mean the rate of expansion seems to be accelerating?

Yes.

Surely it can't be both infinite and expanding, can it?

Apparently it can as I saw on Horizon last night.

Seems counter intuitive, but then again, what do I know.

[Leonard James]

Help is at hand ....... http://www.euronews.com/2015/07/20/why-haven-t-we-found-alien-life-yet/

Tried and got this message. Will try again later.


"The page you requested cannot be found; it might have been removed, had its name CHANGED, or is temporarily unavailable."

[jeremyp]

the conundrum still remains - you can't say the line is infinitely long.. and now it is a bit longer.

You need to do some Cantorian set theory.

So you don't have an answer then.

The number line can be stretched without taking up any more than the room it does take up because it is infinite.  If you take every number on the number line and multiply it by two you end up with the exact same set of numbers.  You have stretched it, but it is still the same size.

This is why I suggested you read some Cantorial set theory because that is what it is about.