Author Topic: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?  (Read 185240 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #500 on: August 13, 2015, 06:20:19 PM »
I am submitting the following from Alien to FSTDT.

'As for them being claims, I am saying that it seems reasonable to accept that Jesus did die, was buried in a known tomb, that the tomb was empty a couple of days later and that on a dozen or so occasions individuals and groups were convinced that they met, spoke and sometimes ate with Jesus. For me, the best explanation of those generally accepted facts is that Jesus really was alive.'

Nothing wrong with that quote, only with your lack of any understanding.

In what way are they generally accepted facts?

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #501 on: August 13, 2015, 06:23:03 PM »
I am submitting the following from Alien to FSTDT.

'As for them being claims, I am saying that it seems reasonable to accept that Jesus did die, was buried in a known tomb, that the tomb was empty a couple of days later and that on a dozen or so occasions individuals and groups were convinced that they met, spoke and sometimes ate with Jesus. For me, the best explanation of those generally accepted facts is that Jesus really was alive.'



Nothing wrong with that quote, only with your lack of any understanding.

In what way are they generally accepted facts?

In the way that billions generally accept them.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #502 on: August 13, 2015, 06:24:09 PM »
I know a Latin term for that ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #503 on: August 13, 2015, 06:25:46 PM »
I know a Latin term for that ;)

Me too!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #504 on: August 13, 2015, 06:26:04 PM »
I am submitting the following from Alien to FSTDT.

'As for them being claims, I am saying that it seems reasonable to accept that Jesus did die, was buried in a known tomb, that the tomb was empty a couple of days later and that on a dozen or so occasions individuals and groups were convinced that they met, spoke and sometimes ate with Jesus. For me, the best explanation of those generally accepted facts is that Jesus really was alive.'



Nothing wrong with that quote, only with your lack of any understanding.

In what way are they generally accepted facts?

In the way that billions generally accept them.

So a billion accept that Mohammed was the prophet, does that make it a fact?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #505 on: August 13, 2015, 06:27:42 PM »
For the hard of thinking, a fact either is or is not true. It is not made true by the number believing it. It is not falsified if no one believes it.

Eta: correction to that there are no untrue facts. There are only facts. They really don't give a fuck.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 06:32:13 PM by Nearly Sane »

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #506 on: August 13, 2015, 06:28:41 PM »
I am submitting the following from Alien to FSTDT.

'As for them being claims, I am saying that it seems reasonable to accept that Jesus did die, was buried in a known tomb, that the tomb was empty a couple of days later and that on a dozen or so occasions individuals and groups were convinced that they met, spoke and sometimes ate with Jesus. For me, the best explanation of those generally accepted facts is that Jesus really was alive.'



Nothing wrong with that quote, only with your lack of any understanding.

In what way are they generally accepted facts?

In the way that billions generally accept them.

So a billion accept that Mohammed was the prophet, does that make it a fact?

It does to their way of thinking, if not yours.  And who is to say you are correct and they are not.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #507 on: August 13, 2015, 06:31:20 PM »
Because that then means by your logic that it is both a 'fact' that Mohammed is the prophet because people be'll sieve it and that he is not the prophet because people do not believe it. Surely you can begin to grasp the logical problems in that?

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #508 on: August 13, 2015, 06:33:28 PM »
Because that then means by your logic that it is both a 'fact' that Mohammed is the prophet because people be'll sieve it and that he is not the prophet because people do not believe it. Surely you can begin to grasp the logical problems in that?

Uh!
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #509 on: August 13, 2015, 06:38:14 PM »
Because that then means by your logic that it is both a 'fact' that Mohammed is the prophet because people beieve it and that he is not the prophet because people do not believe it. Surely you can begin to grasp the logical problems in that?

Uh!
Edited for the weird predictive text.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #510 on: August 13, 2015, 06:39:25 PM »
Because that then means by your logic that it is both a 'fact' that Mohammed is the prophet because people beieve it and that he is not the prophet because people do not believe it. Surely you can begin to grasp the logical problems in that?

Uh!
Edited for the weird predictive text.

Uh!
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #511 on: August 13, 2015, 06:41:38 PM »
Because that then means by your logic that it is both a 'fact' that Mohammed is the prophet because people beieve it and that he is not the prophet because people do not believe it. Surely you can begin to grasp the logical problems in that?

Uh!
Edited for the weird predictive text.

Uh!

So you are saying  that you have no grasp of logic.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #512 on: August 13, 2015, 06:43:49 PM »
Because that then means by your logic that it is both a 'fact' that Mohammed is the prophet because people beieve it and that he is not the prophet because people do not believe it. Surely you can begin to grasp the logical problems in that?

Uh!
Edited for the weird predictive text.

Uh!

So you are saying  that you have no grasp of logic.

Not really:  more that I don't have a grasp of what you're trying to say.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #513 on: August 13, 2015, 06:50:10 PM »
Ok let"s start at the very beginning. A fact is something that is true. It is not influenced by the numbers believing it. There are many people that think Mohammed was the prophet. There are many people that think he was not. If you take that idea that you are punting that a fact is established by numbers believing then Mohammed being the prophet would be true. It would also because many people not believing that be not true.

An approach that leads to the possibility that something is both true and not true is flawed logic.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #514 on: August 13, 2015, 06:54:05 PM »
Ok let"s start at the very beginning. A fact is something that is true. It is not influenced by the numbers believing it. There are many people that think Mohammed was the prophet. There are many people that think he was not. If you take that idea that you are punting that a fact is established by numbers believing then Mohammed being the prophet would be true. It would also because many people not believing that be not true.

An approach that leads to the possibility that something is both true and not true is flawed logic.

 Any opinion, then, is "flawed logic,"  since some may have a differing opinion on the same matter.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 06:56:16 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #515 on: August 13, 2015, 06:58:43 PM »
No, differing opinions are fine. As the saying goes, you can have your own opinions, you cannot have your own facts.

Gordon

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #516 on: August 13, 2015, 06:59:29 PM »
Ok let"s start at the very beginning. A fact is something that is true. It is not influenced by the numbers believing it. There are many people that think Mohammed was the prophet. There are many people that think he was not. If you take that idea that you are punting that a fact is established by numbers believing then Mohammed being the prophet would be true. It would also because many people not believing that be not true.

An approach that leads to the possibility that something is both true and not true is flawed logic.

Any opinion, then, is "flawed logic,"  since it may or may not be true.

Facts and opinions can, of course, coincide - but the aren't the same thing.

For example, by any established measure it is a fact that Glasgow is closer to Edinburgh than to Newcastle, and any opinions on the matter are irrelevant to the truth of this fact.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #517 on: August 13, 2015, 07:00:36 PM »
No, differing opinions are fine. As the saying goes, you can have your own opinions, you cannot have your own facts.

A fact is a fact, there to be proved or disproved, and sometimes neither is possible.  So you accept your version, unless it is disproved.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #518 on: August 13, 2015, 07:02:17 PM »
Your version is opinion, not fact

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #519 on: August 13, 2015, 07:07:00 PM »
Your version is opinion, not fact

Can you prove my opinion is just that, and not factual?
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #520 on: August 13, 2015, 07:08:55 PM »
Your version is opinion, not fact

Can you prove my opinion is just that, and not factual?

Your opinion may be correct, and that you hold that opinion is a fact but it is irrelevant as to whether something you hold an opinion about is true

jeremyp

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #521 on: August 13, 2015, 07:12:19 PM »
So if they spoke about the same sightings they would be seen as not independent and thus not trustworthy, but if they don't speak about the same sightings we shouldn't trust them because they don't corroborate each other. Is that what you mean?

"Independent" doesn't mean talking about different sightings, it means having different original sources.  What you want is two or more people talking about the same event but either being eye witnesses or sourcing the material ultimately from different eye witnesses.

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Fine, but you are wrong in asserting that no-one knows who the authors of the gospels are.

No I am correct.
 
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You are of the opinion that we don't know; I am of the opinion that we do.

But you having an opinion does not mean you know who the authors are.

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I have an account of Harry Potter defeating Lord Voldemort. 
So what?

You have an account of a man rising from the dead.  So what?
Why do you think the examples are comparable in any sensible manner?

They both talk about fantastical events that violate the known laws of nature.

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I do not need to show that God exists to demonstrate that Jesus rose from the dead. What I try to do is show that Jesus did die, was buried in a known tomb, that tomb was empty a couple of days later and that individuals and groups were convinced they met, spoke and sometimes ate with him afterwards. The best explanation of that is that he was indeed dead on the Friday and alive the Sunday onwards. What is the best explanation for that? That he was raised by God, as he had predicted. In order to be raised by God, God has to exist.

But you fail to show that the events are as you claim.  You show that we have stories describing some events, but you fail to show that the events they describe were real. 

Furthermore, your assessment that Jesus rising from the dead is the best explanation for those stories rests entirely on the assumption that God exists.  Without God and with the known laws of the Universe, the probability that Jesus rose from the dead is vanishingly small.

Even furthermore, once you assume God exists and interferes with the World, all arguments based on probability (which is to say all arguments about the real Word) are rendered null and void.

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You cannot reason about the real World by deduction alone, you have to use, what is known as inductive reasoning.  Induction is inferring conclusions from observations.  For instance, I observe lots of people sitting on chairs successfully, therefore, by inductive reasoning, I infer that I can sit on a chair without it collapsing.  Inherent in this form of reasoning is the assumption that the World is basically predictable, that we can estimate probabilities of uncertain events based on our experience of events we have observed.

This assumption goes out the window as soon as you invoke a god because God can upset the apple cart anytime she likes.  There really is no point in you arguing that Jesus' resurrection is the most likely explanation for the NT Bible stories because the idea that one explanation is more probable than another relies on principles that are null and void if God can interfere with the World.
Why?

Perhaps an example would help.  If I toss a fair coin ten times, what is the probability that it will come up heads each time?  It's 1/1024.

Now suppose that I have a telekinetic ability so that I can nudge the coin imperceptibly as it is spinning in the air and make it land on whichever side I please.  What is the probability of it coming up heads each time?  Can you even answer the question? 
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jeremyp

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #522 on: August 13, 2015, 07:15:30 PM »
Eye witness accounts are NOT always reliable as has been pointed out many times, that is definitely the case when claiming something supernatural has happened!

The fact that there are eye-witness accounts is the critical point.

Are there?  Where?

In the Bible.

Chapter and verse please.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #523 on: August 13, 2015, 07:17:36 PM »
Eye witness accounts are NOT always reliable as has been pointed out many times, that is definitely the case when claiming something supernatural has happened!

The fact that there are eye-witness accounts is the critical point.

Are there?  Where?

In the Bible.

Chapter and verse please.

Sorry, I haven't the time right now:  there's a Twenty20 match to follow.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

jeremyp

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #524 on: August 13, 2015, 07:18:54 PM »

In the way that billions generally accept them.

There are two billion Christians and five billion non Christians.  According to you, we must conclude that they are not facts.  They certainly aren't generally accepted, or there would be close to seven billion Christians.
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